on question for religious people

Author: Lunar108
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#91
GnosticChristianBishop
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@zedvictor4
I agree on genocide and mourn that Christianity and Islam venerate the dark sade and pray to devils.

That is why Gnostic Christian, centuries ago, consigned Yahweh to hell, where all such vile gods belong.

All morale people will follow suit.

Regards
DL
#92
Dr.Franklin
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@Bones
you got nothing
#93
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@Dr.Franklin
*You've. 
#94
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@n8nrgmi
It could be about plausible deniability.
More likely than not he is doing the excact opposite. Lack of evidence for something that would require extraordinary evidence shows us that God is irrelevant. And the argument is silly regardless. In this world there are still flat-earthers, so God is not in any danger of proving himself at the expence of free will. 

Worse, if God wants people not to believe in him then he wants them to burn in hell. I see that as deliberate irresponsibility, certainly evil.
#95
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@Bones
real good
#96
Bones
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@Dr.Franklin
So that's a no to the debate and a yes to the banter?
#97
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@Bones
you did not rebuttal my argument. explain how the problem of evil is sound
#98
Bones
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@Dr.Franklin
you did not rebuttal my argument.
This is a conversation, not a debate. 

explain how the problem of evil is sound
I'll tell you in a debate. 
#99
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@Bones
I don't debate anymore, I don't have the time. You can tell by the amount of time that I actually spend the website now-a-days
#100
Bones
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@Dr.Franklin
I don't debate anymore, I don't have the time. You can tell by the amount of time that I actually spend the website now-a-days
I'm not on here much either. We could do a debate with a 2 week argument time. 
#101
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@Bones
Even then i wont have time
#102
Tradesecret
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@Bones

Yet - if God exists - suddenly the atheist is up in arms about evil.   Why?  That is the question.  Somehow what can happen when God does not exist is IMPOSSIBLE to be part of the answer if God does exist.,  Mirrors and smokescreens.  Talk about escapism and denial.  
In the atheist model, there is no all loving, all powerful being watching over the cosmos. In the atheist's world view, evil is a product of free will. In the theist's world view, evil is a product of free will but is also permitted by an all loving father. 
In the theist's world - evil is condemned by God - and is dealt with through Jesus.  Permission is an odd thing to suggest.  You fail to delineate between first and second causes.  God set up a system in the OT to punish evil. He also set up a system to deal with individual evil.   Why fail to mention these things? Are they inconvenient truths?  

God gave humanity the ability to do the right thing in their creation. Yet he also gave them the ability to follow their own choices.  Why this is difficult to understand is staggering? 
Fibromyalgia. 
Listing a disorder is not an argument.  I have argued elsewhere that the existence of evil is definitive proof that God exists.  A disorder demonstrates that the world we live in is not perfect - and has rebelled against God and his designs. It is evidence of sin and its destructive power.  It is a natural effect of the cause of sin.  If we did not have disorders in our world today, this would demonstrate that sin is not a problem.  Yet sin is a problem and evil and its destructive consequences are real demonstrating God exists. 

Free will is the reason for evil.
Who willed cancer? 
Twisting meanings in wordplay is silly.    One might suggest that Adam and Eve by intentionally disobeying God - willed for every consequence because of that choice.   Cancer is a distortion of the human body in its perfect form. Cancer is destructive and deteriorative.   If Adam had not sinned, cancer would not be a thing. 


God's existence does not change the facts about evil.
It doesn't, that is correct. Consider the following example. 

  1. A kid in a school brings out a rifle. The teacher who is known to be loving stops them. The threat is deescalated. 
  2. A kid in a school brings out a rifle. The teacher who is known to be loving does not stop him because he does not want to intervene with the child's free will. After all, freewill is a gift given by God, who is the mortal teacher to judge the child? Everyone in the school dies. 
In both examples, you are correct to say that free will is the driving force for the terror. The fact that a loving teacher is there does not change this. However, the issue arises when the teacher claims that they are loving, and further problems arise when the teacher reveals their reason for not stepping in.
A bad analogy. you are attempting to use a Hindu - understanding of free will as practiced on the Star Ship Enterprise in Star Trek as the model for Christian or biblical free will.  It is effectively a straw man argument. 

Christians don't hold to the view that God won't intervene if he chooses to. We don't say that God won't interfere with free will. In fact we say the opposite - God will interfere - and does in every person who becomes a Christian. This is one reason I challenged you to become a Christian a while ago. It is precisely because it requires God to interfere with your Free Will that anyone becomes a Christian. 

Btw many kids could take a gun to school and there might never be an issue.  In fact many kids do takes guns to school and no issue ever occurs. 

Some teachers might try and stop kids from bringing out guns - loving or not - and gets shot and killed. What point was there in interfering? 

Free will is an explanation for cause and effect. And for culpability.  People who break the law intentionally or recklessly should be held accountable for their actions.  A teacher is responsible for their class room and makes the rules within it.  Kid's should not bring a gun to school in my view.  

Every day God judges the world - historically but also finally on judgment day.  Every day people die - because people sin.  Death is the consequence of sin. Sometimes God acts in a direct way but sometimes he acts in an indirect way in history.  At other times - God's judgment is going to be on that last day. 

You talk about God permitting sin.  I think that is unhelpful.  And it doesn't further the discussion but rather is a way to shut it down. Yet it doesn't address even a little bit of how God does think about sin.  It doesn't address why God bothered to say sin is bad and will lead to death. It doesn't address why he set up both a legal and a Levitical system to deal with it. It does not address why God sent prophets to warn his people not to sin. It doesn't address why he sent Jesus to die for sin for others. It doesn't address why God will judge the world for sin.  In fact it misses the entire point that God told Adam and Eve not sin in the first place or they will suffer consequences. 

To me - it looks simply like you are trying to find a way to justify why you can be sinful without consequences and how you want to blame God for your own actions. It is not the position of someone who is prepared to accept their own responsibility.   It is rather someone looking for loopholes. 


#103
Bones
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@Tradesecret
In the theist's world - evil is condemned by God - and is dealt with through Jesus. 
Having a solution to a problem does not alleviate the fact that there is still gratuitous suffering in the world. Returning to my teacher example, would it matter if the teacher were to then punish the shooter after he has killed the entire class? Obviously not, it’s great that the teacher does administer some punishment, but that doesn’t change the inconvenient fact that they have allowed a killer to mow through her class.  

Permission is an odd thing to suggest.  You fail to delineate between first and second causes.  God set up a system in the OT to punish evil. He also set up a system to deal with individual evil. Why fail to mention these things? Are they inconvenient truths?  

For the reasons above. Punishment doesn’t change the act. 

I have argued elsewhere that the existence of evil is definitive proof that God exists.  A disorder demonstrates that the world we live in is not perfect - and has rebelled against God and his designs. It is evidence of sin and its destructive power.  
Two problems. The first is that you commit what is known as the fallacy of introducing unnecessary ontology. Consider the following example. 

Trade: Aliens exist
Bones: But there is no evidence
Trade: I guess the aliens hid them. 

We have identified an issue for Christianity, and instead of accepting its implications, you add an unnecessary ontology, that the world isn’t perfect. 

Further, you state that humans rebelled against God. Humans were created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God, so he would have wanted to create the best humans he could. Best is subjective, but we can agree that God, if all powerful and all loving, would not have created handicapped people. Further, God is said to have created man “in his image”. We have discussed this before and will likely not get closure but I maintain my stance: Whatever definition or idiom you use, the term “in the image of” must mean that X took at least some inspiration from Y. If I create a statue and say that it is made with the image of Plato in my mind, in order for me to be successful, my sculpture must bear some resemblance to Plato, or else I would have failed. However, if I make something in the image of God (infinite), the inspiration must also be infinite. A finite thing cannot bear any quantifiable resemblance to an infinite thing. Thus humans, if the bible is right, must be infinitely good. But leaving this aside, let’s assume that God just made man perfect, for that would be the most loving thing to do. 

If humans rebelled against God, ordinarily, there are two responses to why. 

  1. Humans were flawed in design. 
  2. Humans had free will and chose to sin.  
The second is what you will take. However, upon further inspection, it tails back to the first option. Suppose man had free will. Would a perfect man rebel against God? Obviously not. You may say that he had “free will”, but this is not a sufficient lifebuoy. A perfect man with free will would not have chosen to rebel against God. 

In response to “who willed cancer”,

One might suggest that Adam and Eve by intentionally disobeying God - willed for every consequence because of that choice…If Adam had not sinned, cancer would not be a thing. 
So Kin punishment then. 

Christians don't hold to the view that God won't intervene if he chooses to. We don't say that God won't interfere with free will. In fact we say the opposite - God will interfere - and does in every person who becomes a Christian. 
This is not harmonious with reality at all. 6 million Jews, many of whom were likely praying to God, were thrown into chambers and gassed to death.  There were Jewish people, literally Jesus’ race.

It is precisely because it requires God to interfere with your Free Will that anyone becomes a Christian. 
This is rather circular. I can only become a Christian if I first believe in converting to Christianity? I’m only converting if there’s a reason. 
#104
eventuality001
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The reason someone would want to spend eternity with a God who prohibits  homosexuality  ..........

.......   is simply because the  creator  God  whom is the designer of our bodies,  he did not design  or  organize  our bodies to have the sexual enactment of  the continual plunging and thrusting  our penis into one another's rectum.

The designer, creator  /  God  has already clearly explained and given mankind a detailed clarity concerning this  -    this is exactly what the     "  BLOOD  CRIMES  "   are detailing from the very beginning.

If God is making this clear and explaining that this is a     "  BLOOD  CRIME   "  against the society around you and also harmful to our own bodies 

in the Bible the point that the prophets were making was that the Jews were to be clean.  The cleaning of pots, pans, vessels, Washing, BATHING Every Single time after SEX, Washing after touching Dead People or animals. Keeping away from other people if You touch a Dead ROTTING Animal. Making sure to Mary a virgin or a widow. No sex with Animals. No gay sex.

'When any man at all   -  has a discharge from his body,  His discharge is unclean.

And whoever touches his bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, Whoever sits on anything that is unclean shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and bathe his body in running water ........ '

'If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood - everything that she sits on shall be unclean.

the LAW was to --- ___ ** separate the children of Israel from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness.

Don't Eat bats, Lions, Cats, Rats, Eel, stingray, and catfish fishes with no fins and scales) Snakes. Don't Eat Raw Blood. 

the Point of punishment for BLOOD CRIMES     The law of Moses, Punished People for Committing BLOOD CRIMES against Others.

Creating Diseases, Birth Defects, and Plagues. Today People Run Wild, INFECTING Millions. ......

God Did not put up With this.  the actors were punished and the Disease, infections, and Danger to Innocent Lives and People Following the LAW were safe. Water supplies, Food Supplies and All Cooking and Daily Living was Safe.

Today we have millions of innocent people with diseases and these  BLOOD CRIMES  are destroying millions of people. Today nearly 37 million people worldwide living with HIV, approximately 1.8 million are innocent children.
There are 23,000 to 46,000 children in the U.S. with Hepatitis C. In comparison, approximately four million American adults have the virus.

The creator had given permission to mankind to  remove  and  eliminate  other people who would willingly and knowing endanger  and infect and cause diseases and sickness to you and your family 

This is the instructions of the Creator and the way  that  God  designed our bodies   -  if we alter and deviate from that design  -  we will have millions of people sick, infected and spreading death.   For most atheist's   this is no problem for them

Atheist's have absolutely no problem with millions of people dying and sick   -  that   they prefer  this  death  and  disease  over the obedience to  following the  clear instructions of the designer. 

In fact,   disease, sickness and death is what atheist's worship and honor and glorify.

9 days later

#105
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@Polytheist-Witch
You haven’t answered the question though and neither has any of the other goddists here. Funny about that and as you very well know it is not a dum question it is there to show goddists how dum they are to believe all the dog mess about healing. So you don’t really need to answer the question properly do you because what you wrote says it all… just chuck stones at people who uncover the truth.
#106
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@Tradesecret
But that wasn’t the question and I think your trying to Roger doger the question because you know very well know that god and not even Jesus ever put a leg back on. What is real dum is that goddists are always in denile and always doge the truth and if they didn’t to that and answer the question truthfully then they wouldn’t be goddists anyway.
#107
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@Lunar108
@Barnardot
How would you know if God 'had healed an amputee?

Eh, even if the Bible said Jesus healed an amputee, Atheists would just say it didn't happen, or whine on some different point.
#108
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@Barnardot
I did answer the question. Human beings can't grow new limbs it's against natural law. The Creator created natural law they can't work outside of it. Ask a question that makes f****** sense. And why are these people allowed to have three and four freaking accounts.
#109
Deb-8-a-bull
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I Remember  when the great  Ethang5 answered this. 

He quote.  

(  They did not have amputees back then. ) 
So. 
End of story

Ha.
Ha. 


#110
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Imagine a bloke with these " special powers " if you will. 
Water to wine. 
Instant bucket 'o fish.
Healing.  
And many many more. 

You wouldn't kill a bloke with these  " powers " would you ?

One wouldn't think so. 
You would simply remove their voice box and have them in a cell / dungeon  type setting making him do the water into wine thing over and over again. 
Alll day long . 
15 hrs of water to wine 
4 hours  of empty bucket into full bucket of fish .
And 3 hours of healing people
And if he does this well .    2 hours rest. 




#111
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@Deb-8-a-bull
What if he wasn't just limited to the wine, fish and healing stuff?

What if he could also do invincible?


But there again, if someone is hell bent on martyrdom for the sake of my sins.

Then who am I to put silly ideas, into their head.


Daft ideas, like do sensible stuff.

Such as, just making sure that there is always an adequate supply of food and water available,
 
And then putting ones feet up in heaven.

Though Jes did like to hang around with his swarthy Arabian boyfriends....So, not sure that Dad would approve.

Dad was very much an old fashioned, married virgins, type of man.


The wine thing is an interesting reflection of biblical times and society though.

That there should preferably be a ready supply of alcohol rather than of clean water.


But with the fish thing, I expect that Jes and his Dad, were thinking omega three.


Actually, perhaps we're missing a trick here.

A diet of wine and fish.....That was the hidden biblical message.


F**k broccoli.....Was that what Goddo was trying to say?

Does it even mention 5 a day in the Bible?

Or KFC.

Perhaps didn't want to offend all the future veg and chicken farmers.


AHHHHH....It's all becoming clear.


Though they do make references to veal,

And several references to shepherding too.

But defo not Pig farming.

And no references to Coca Cola.

Or Pepsi.

Or Fighter Jets.

Or the U.S.A.

Or a whole lot of other stuff too.
#112
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@Deb-8-a-bull

They did not have amputees back then
For better or worse, i think this sort of argument still resonates strongly among educated theists in my social circle. 


#113
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@Lunar108
Merely skimmed the tread. I believe that faith is a leap, not an authentic observation of objects. Perhaps, you can tell those fasebook users to atleast consider the perspective of a believer whose legs are amputated? Better yet, they can ask one among the wild themselves if theyre bold enough.


#114
Deb-8-a-bull
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Speaking of gods and foods. 

FASTING. 

God loves it when  he looks down and sees a few million of his followers doing the whole .  "  DON'T EAT CERTAIN THINGS AT CERTAIN TIMES " thing. 

He would be all like 
Oh look at em. 
' They are doing the '   " dont eat for me thing " 
 Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.  he'd fuking love that shit.  

There is only one thing god loves more then when you guys dont eat for him. 
That being   




♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡   PALM   SUNDAY   ♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡

God loves nothing more then when you guys bring palm leaves to church. 

Picture  him  catching a glimps of you lot with palm prongs. 
LOVES  IT.   Toats respect.   

Hey Do you think god has noticed  that.  Between  all these special  fun days  we have for celebrating  god /  jesus. 
it seems that it goes night and day for    (  365 TIMES.)  
God must wonder why we always wait  a specific  ( 365 days ) before we do  the exact same thing  over again.. 

I doubt he has noticed that every 1460 days  we perform these things one dark time and day time late.





#115
FLRW
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Why did God create 2 trillion galaxies? Now, if we were to imagine how many planets and stars those 2 trillion galaxies might have, we would probably have to throw out our calculators. This is especially true since some galaxies are several times larger than our Milky Way Galaxy, which itself contains 400 billion stars.
#116
Tradesecret
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@Barnardot
But that wasn’t the question and I think your trying to Roger doger the question because you know very well know that god and not even Jesus ever put a leg back on. What is real dum is that goddists are always in denile and always doge the truth and if they didn’t to that and answer the question truthfully then they wouldn’t be goddists anyway.
LOL@ you. 

I did not dodge the question. The question assumes many things.  For instance that he never healed an amputee.  In the NT Jesus healed a man who had an arm which was effectively useless.  

Jesus also healed many people who came to him for healing. Were any of these amputees? It is very possible?

But the other thing I commented earlier was - why doesn't God heal every amputee? But let's get even more serious.  Why doesn't God heal every single problem in the world?  And why not go even further - why does not God stop every little evil that occurs before it even starts? After all he knows all things and can do anything he wants. 

This question on this page is like saying God is mean and nasty because he doesn't heal an amputee's leg or arm.  The point of saying this is nothing short of arrogance and egotistical.  For God is love - and God is powerful - THEREFORE God is obligated to heal these things. And if he doesn't then either God is mean, and nasty and cruel and wicked, or he does not exist.   Can you see the naïve assumptions underlying this kind of thinking? I don't reckon you can. 

Just because God is love - and knows all things and can do all that he desires - why should that mean he MUST have to heal an amputee? I love my kids too. And I can do lots of things for them - and I can prevent them from harming themselves - (if they were to listen) and I can give them opportunities to enjoy life (if they would take them) but although at times I will - I won't do it everytime. Sometimes they need to learn for themselves. Sometimes they reject what I can help them with.  I want my kids to grow up and mature.  I don't want them holding onto my apron strings for the rest of their lives.  And none of this is to suggest that God is like me at all. It is only to demonstrate that even in ordinary human life - the assumptions above are so crazy it is ridiculous that people continue to throw them out - like they are a winning question. 

God is God. He is not a human like you or me.  He does things according to his own plans and desires - and he tells us it is ALWAYS good. Now you don't have to believe it. But I do.  But nor do I start with assumptions that God somehow has to conform to the cultural mindset of the 21st century humanity.  


#117
zedvictor4
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@Tradesecret
Why does a GOD have to conform to a cultural mindset the prevailed prior to the 1st century, only in the Eastern Mediterranean/Arabian Peninsular region of this one small Planet?

If a GOD is going to conform to any mindset, I would suggest that it would be a super-intelligent, logical and universal mindset.

Thereby rendering tales of apples and snakes, floating Zoo's, general miracles and nailing blokes to posts for our sins, to the realms of super-intelligent comedy sketch shows.

One assumes that GODS enjoy a good laugh at the human comedians.


#118
Tradesecret
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@zedvictor4
Why does a GOD have to conform to a cultural mindset the prevailed prior to the 1st century, only in the Eastern Mediterranean/Arabian Peninsular region of this one small Planet?
Who says that he does? I don't think that God does.  What I do think though is that in the 21st century we think we KNOW IT ALL and are SUPERIOR to every other time in history. 

If a GOD is going to conform to any mindset, I would suggest that it would be a super-intelligent, logical and universal mindset.
God conforms only to his own will and character.  1 Corinthians 1 and 2 reminds us that God's foolishness is brighter than the most super intelligent logical and universal mindsets.  

Thereby rendering tales of apples and snakes, floating Zoo's, general miracles and nailing blokes to posts for our sins, to the realms of super-intelligent comedy sketch shows.
The Garden of Eden never mentions an apple. Stop repeating lies.  Was there a snake or serpent or a man or an angel?  Who knows? Floating zoos. I assume you are talking about Noah's Ark. I assume therefore you would have preferred for nothing to have survived the flood.  Jesus nailed to the cross.  Hmmm - wisdom personified. Sin ??? Something you don't understand.   The picture of the cross as the defining moment in history is profound.  It's a shame really that you don't get it.  

One assumes that GODS enjoy a good laugh at the human comedians.
Why? Psalm 2 tells us what God does laugh at.  



#119
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@Tradesecret
Psalms and Corinthians loosely repeat human tales.

And your GOD conforms to the will and the character of the character GOD, as depicted by those who loosely repeated 2000 year old plus tales, 2000ish years ago.

And the cross as mentioned in said tales, is representative of said tales, and said tales certainly helped to shape more recent human events and societies.

And "we" don't know the half of it, and may never do so. But by virtue of species evolution we have undeniably acquired "superior " knowledge.....Knowledge that said repeaters of said tales were never able to possess. Hence we have actually exceeded the need for a humanesque creator GOD and it's associated Middle Eastern tales.

It's a shame really that you and millions of other's refuse to get it.

But such is data transfer and data conditioning relative to social order and the human desire for wealth and power.....And you and I are just pawns in the game.

So realistically it's not a shame at all.....It's just the way of the human world.

And if the biblical  GOD works as a coping strategy for you, then who am I to deny you that comfort.

I cope perfectly well without.
 
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@zedvictor4
Psalms and Corinthians loosely repeat human tales.

And your GOD conforms to the will and the character of the character GOD, as depicted by those who loosely repeated 2000 year old plus tales, 2000ish years ago.

And the cross as mentioned in said tales, is representative of said tales, and said tales certainly helped to shape more recent human events and societies.

And "we" don't know the half of it, and may never do so. But by virtue of species evolution we have undeniably acquired "superior " knowledge.....Knowledge that said repeaters of said tales were never able to possess. Hence we have actually exceeded the need for a humanesque creator GOD and it's associated Middle Eastern tales.

It's a shame really that you and millions of other's refuse to get it.

But such is data transfer and data conditioning relative to social order and the human desire for wealth and power.....And you and I are just pawns in the game.

So realistically it's not a shame at all.....It's just the way of the human world.

And if the biblical  GOD works as a coping strategy for you, then who am I to deny you that comfort.

I cope perfectly well without.

Coping strategy.  ????  

I don't believe in God as a coping strategy.   That may be the reason you believe in evolution. After all, its plausibility is so ridiculous that the only way any rational person could believe it - is the FACT that the only alternative is the existence of a CREATION GOD.  To acknowledge the truth that evolution is a hoax - creates an even worse dilemma - the reality of God.  People would prefer to believe the stupidity that is evolution - than the reality of God.  

On the other hand, I can believe in God and evolution. Not that I do. But I could.  reason and irrationality at the same time. But atheists - have no such choice. 

I pity the atheist. I really do.  So lost. So confused. So egotistical in their lostness.  Arrogant. They would prefer to take their cricket bat and go home rather than admit they were out.