I will like you to discuss this.
Kosher (the most cruel) and Halal (almost as cruel) are excuses for animal-abusing ways of killing.
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@RationalMadman
I think both came into existence out of consideration for the animals to be slaughtered, or how it might emotionally effect humans.
By this I mean, both methods sound attempts to kill animals with 'less pain or fear, rather than more.
As well as ideas of what is healthy or unhealthy to consume.
Also cultural ideas of good or ill behavior, uses of animals and their material.
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@Lemming
both methods sound attempts to kill animals with 'less pain or fear, rather than more.
Can I ask you something before I elaborate on the methods, what is it you believe an animal genuinely feels?
Let's take a proper full grown mammal cow, not just a chicken.
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@RationalMadman
Animals certainly seem to feel fear,
From what I've heard people say of group behavior,
Or when they're being forced into a suspicious place, with suspicious smells.
I'm sure animals can with training recognize dangerous animals, or objects.
Sorry about walls of italic text, don't feel a 'need to read it all.
I don't know much of the subject, but a number of the words, sentences, imply to me a desire to humanely slaughter animals.
"According to Islamic tradition, the animal is brought to the place of slaughter and laid down gently so as to not injure it."
"The blade must be kept hidden until the very last moment while the jugular of the animal is felt."
"It is also compulsory that each animal must be slaughtered individually and in seclusion, according to some schools of thought. In a poultry farm or slaughter house, one animal must not witness another animal being slaughtered as it is makruh.[citation needed]"
"Stunning the animal with a bolt-gun, as is the standard practice in USDA FSIS inspected slaughtering houses, may cause instant death. Most Muslims regard meat from such a slaughter to be haraam, considering such meat as carrion. However, some accept this on the grounds that a stunned animal which is not slaughtered recovers to lead a full normal life, therefore stunning does not damage the lifeforce of the animal and is halal. This argument is, in fact, untenable as the animal which actually dies as a result of stunning obviously cannot recover 'to lead a full normal life'; it is only the animals which are not 'damaged' by stunning that can recover fully. There are always a small percentage of animals that always die from the stunning process. It is this mortality of a small number of animals that renders the whole stunning process unacceptable according to the halal system, in the view of some. However, all animals are stunned before commercial slaughter in New Zealand and New Zealand is a major exporter of halal meat.[20][21]
It is for these reasons that there are ongoing questions and conversations within the North American Muslim community as to whether meat processed in these slaughterhouses meets the standard of "halal" (as opposed to dhabīḥah). At the center of this debate is the doubt as to whether this meat could qualify under the allowed category of the food of the People of the Book (Jewish and Christians). The first consideration being that standard slaughtering methods could cause the animal to die in a way other than slaughter (death through exsanguination).
Debate continues among Muslim jurists and the general Muslim population about whether or not stunning, anesthetics, or other forms of inducing unconsciousness in the animal prior to slaughter are permissible as per Islam. Several halal food authorities have more recently permitted the use of a recently developed fail-safe system of head-only stunning where the shock is less painful and non-fatal and where it is possible to reverse the procedure and revive the animal after the shock.[22]"
. . .
"The procedure is done with the intention of causing a rapid drop in blood pressure in the brain and loss of consciousness, to render the animal insensitive to pain and to exsanguinate in a prompt and precise action.[9]"
"Forbidden techniques[edit]
- Shehiyah (שהייה; delay or pausing)—Pausing during the incision and then starting to cut again makes the animal's flesh unkosher.[12] The knife must be moved across the neck in an uninterrupted motion until the trachea and esophagus are sufficiently severed to avoid this.[5] There is some disagreement among legal sources as to the exact length of time needed to constitute shehiyah, but today the normative practice is to disqualify a kosher cut as a result of any length of pausing.[13]
- Derasah (דרסה; pressing/chopping)—The knife must be drawn across the throat by a back and forth movement, not by chopping, hacking, or pressing without moving the knife back and forth.[14] There are those[15] who assert that it is forbidden to have the animal in an upright position during shechita due to the prohibition of derasah. They maintain that the animal must be on its back or lying on its side, and some also allow for the animal to be suspended upside down.[16] However, the Rambam explicitly permits upright slaughter,[17] and the Orthodox Union as well as all other major kosher certifiers in the United States accept upright slaughter.[18]
- Haladah (חלדה; covering, digging, or burying)—The knife must be drawn over the throat so that the back of the knife is at all times visible while shechita is being performed. It must not be stabbed into the neck or buried by fur, hide, feathers, the wound itself, or a foreign object (such as a scarf) which may cover the knife.[19]
- Hagramah (הגרמה; cutting in the wrong location)—Hagramah refers to the location on the neck on which a kosher cut may be performed; cutting outside this location will in most cases disqualify a kosher cut.[20] According to today's normative Orthodox practice, any cutting outside this area will in all cases disqualify a kosher cut.[20] The limits within which the knife may be applied are from the large ring in the windpipe to the top of the upper lobe of the lung when it is inflated, and corresponding to the length of the pharynx. Slaughtering above or below these limits renders the meat non-kosher.
- Iqqur (עיקור; tearing)—If either the esophagus or the trachea is torn during the shechita incision, the carcass is rendered non-kosher. Iqqur can occur if one tears out the esophagus or trachea while handling an animal's neck or if the esophagus or trachea is torn by a knife with imperfection/s on the blade, such as nicks or serration.[21][22][23] In order to avoid tearing, the kosher slaughter knife is expertly maintained and regularly checked with the shochet's fingernail to ensure that no nicks are present.[24]"
"It is forbidden to slaughter an animal and its young on the same day.[29] An animal's "young" is defined as either its own offspring, or another animal that follows it around, even if of another species.[citation needed]"
"Temple Grandin is opposed to shackling and hoisting as a method of handling animals and wrote, on visiting a shechita slaughterhouse,
I will never forget having nightmares after visiting the now defunct Spencer Foods plant in Spencer, Iowa, fifteen years ago. Employees wearing football helmets attached a nose tong to the nose of a writhing beast suspended by a chain wrapped around one back leg. Each terrified animal was forced with an electric prod to run into a small stall which had a slick floor on a forty-five-degree angle. This caused the animal to slip and fall so that workers could attach the chain to its rear leg [in order to raise it into the air]. As I watched this nightmare, I thought, 'This should not be happening in a civilized society.' In my diary I wrote, 'If hell exists, I am in it.' I vowed that I would replace the plant from hell with a kinder and gentler system.[69]
Efforts are made to improve the techniques used in slaughterhouses. Temple Grandin has worked closely with Jewish slaughterers to design handling systems for cattle, and has said: "When the cut is done correctly, the animal appears not to feel it. From an animal-welfare standpoint, the major concern during ritual slaughter are the stressful and cruel methods of restraint (holding) that are used in some plants."[70]"
"The OU's condonation of Agriprocessors as a possibly inhumane, yet appropriately glatt kosher company has led to discussion as to whether or not industrialized agriculture has undermined the place of halakha (Jewish law) in shechita as well as whether or not halakha has any place at all in Jewish ritual slaughter.[74]"
The most humane way to kill a cow, is to slice their throat. Most factory farms electrocute them
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@Wylted
Before the throat part, the stunning part
yeah that's 100% banned in kosher
a bolt gun is banned for Halal but some use methods of stunning though the efficacy is debated.
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@Lemming
Did you actually read what Temple Grandin said about Kosher methodology?
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@Lemming
You are pasting some things but your links don't say 'kosher' the other link mentions Halal but doesn't specify the method used.
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@RationalMadman
I only skimmed a short blurb of them on Wikipedia,
Wikipedia not 'best source, but is 'light introduction to topics, I think.
"Temple Grandin is opposed to shackling and hoisting as a method of handling animals and wrote, on visiting a shechita slaughterhouse,
I will never forget having nightmares after visiting the now defunct Spencer Foods plant in Spencer, Iowa, fifteen years ago. Employees wearing football helmets attached a nose tong to the nose of a writhing beast suspended by a chain wrapped around one back leg. Each terrified animal was forced with an electric prod to run into a small stall which had a slick floor on a forty-five-degree angle. This caused the animal to slip and fall so that workers could attach the chain to its rear leg [in order to raise it into the air]. As I watched this nightmare, I thought, 'This should not be happening in a civilized society.' In my diary I wrote, 'If hell exists, I am in it.' I vowed that I would replace the plant from hell with a kinder and gentler system.[69]
Efforts are made to improve the techniques used in slaughterhouses. Temple Grandin has worked closely with Jewish slaughterers to design handling systems for cattle, and has said: "When the cut is done correctly, the animal appears not to feel it. From an animal-welfare standpoint, the major concern during ritual slaughter are the stressful and cruel methods of restraint (holding) that are used in some plants."[70]"
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@RationalMadman
In Judaism, shechita (anglicized: /ʃəxiːˈtɑː/; Hebrew: שחיטה; [ʃχiˈta]; also transliterated shehitah, shechitah, shehita) is slaughtering of certain mammals and birds for food according to kashrut.
I Googled,
kosher slaughter wikipedia,
That's what popped up.
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@Lemming
So... How is this more humane than bolt-gun killing the brain, with very little sign beforehand that you're gonna do it (lack of panic in the animal) and very swift bleeding out where the animal isn't conscious at all for any of it?
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@Lemming
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@RationalMadman
Of the subject I know little, thus don't have a strong opinion.
One might argue that excessive pain comes from malpractice,
"A 1978 study at the University of Veterinary Medicine Hanover indicates that shechita gave results which proved "...pain and suffering to the extent as has since long been generally associated in public with this kind of slaughter cannot be registered..." and that "[a complete loss of consciousness] occurred generally within considerably less time than during the slaughter method after captive bolt stunning."[56] However, the lead of the study William Schulze warned in his report that the results may have been due to the captive bolt device they used being defective.[56]"
"Nick Cohen, writing for the New Statesman, discusses research papers collected by Compassion in World Farming which indicate that the animal suffers pain during the process.[57] In 2009, Craig Johnson and colleagues showed that calves that have not been stunned feel pain from the cut in their necks,[58] and they may take at least 10–30 seconds to lose consciousness.[59]"
"Temple Grandin says that the experiment needs to be repeated using a qualified shochet and knives of the correct size sharpened in the proper way.[60]
Studies done in 1994 by Temple Grandin, an Associate Professor of Animal Science at Colorado State University, and another in 1992 by Flemming Bager, Head of the Danish Veterinary Laboratory, showed that when the animals were slaughtered in a comfortable position they appeared to give no resistance and none of the animals attempted to pull away their head. The studies concluded that a shechita cut "probably results in minimal discomfort" because the cattle stand still and do not resist a comfortable head restraint device.[64]"
"Temple Grandin—a leading designer of animal handling systems—gives various times for loss of consciousness via kosher ritual slaughter, ranging from 15 to 90 seconds depending on measurement type and individual kosher slaugtherhouse.[65] She elaborates on what parts of the process she finds may or may not be cause for concern.[66][67] In 2018, Grandin stated that kosher slaughter, no matter how well its done, is not instantaneous, whereas stunning properly with a captive bolt is instantaneous.[68]"
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@Lemming
Temple Grandin is one of the greatest (proudly autistic) pioneers of animal rights for cows in the history of humankind, I appreciate that she wanted to teach Kosher slaughterers a way to alter their methods to be less extremely cruel but they are still crueller than they need to be, significantly so.
Her focus wasn't on Kosher methods anyway, it was on general factory farming methods.
It's an animist I believe that animals have spirit, that said I am not a vegetarian. As long as an animal is being killed as humanly as possible then I don't have a problem with it. Doesn't matter if it's hunting or a farmer or ritual butchering or industrial. There are all sorts of reasons to hate the meat industry in the US that have nothing to do with the specific killing process.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Why would it have nothing to do with killing method? Do you think somebody who doesn't respect an animal while killing it treated it well while it was alive?
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@RationalMadman
Even if everyone agreed that stunning the animal was the most humane way to kill it the animals are treated like crap through the whole process start to finish. Whenever an animal goes from food to dollar signs you run the risk of those animals being treated poorly to turn a buck.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Sure, it starts with a culture hating animal abuse for pressure to work towards better treatment of the average farm animal within that culture's region of influence.
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@Polytheist-Witch
@Lemming
WARNING FOLLOWING POST TEACHERS CHICKEN SLAUGHTER METHODOLOGY, PERFORM AT YOUR OWN PERSONAL RISK PRACTISE AND UNDERSTAND FIRST BE RESPONSIBLE TO YOUR ANIMAL.
Let's focus on chickens then.
The method that your typical 'western' farmer may be a modern gas method (not painful like what you're thinking, very rapid death, they don't know it's coming, not panic or stress).
Alternatively the oldschool humane way to kill them runs like this.
You grab the chicken, and turn it upside down, unlike many mammals, birds don't experience a huge resistance to blood flow to their head overflowing their brain, instantly calming them and distorting a huge portion of reality.
DO NOT ever HOLD A CHICKEN UPSIDE DOWN UNTIL YOU ARE LITERALLY GOING TO KILL THEM, IT CAUSES LUNG COLLAPSE FOR THEM.
You wait until it has stopped struggling entirely which can simply just take up to 1 minute but the wait is crucial, then just in case it's still feeling, you slit 2 sides of its neck (front of neck)in two horizontal/diagonal (not down but out to the side) cuts one either side of the neck, this method is much better than the 'clean cut' method because of how a bird's anatomy works. If you cut deep towards the trachea as oppose to what I said, you make everything more painful and the rush of agony can force their brain conscious again.
The slits I mention will bleed out in no time. Make very sure to cover their eyes just in case their brain hasn't had enough blood rush to it yet to cut off all sensation. Chickens assume darkness is safety, involuntarily, and enter a drowsy state.
You will find that Kosher methodology is much more brutal, slow and dragged out. Halal method depends on the slaugtherer, some take it serious and study the humane way to kill and adapted to turn them upside down first before the bleeding. Others... Nope... Just cut and bleed even with it upright or sideways, only turning it upside down after it was sideways to begin with.
I've hid bacon bits in my Jewish bosses lunch a few times.
The first time i did it. I went and checked on him straight after lunch to make sure he wasn't melting.
It appeared to do nothing to him.
Kosher , shmosher.
I wanted to make ( PIGGY POWDER 2000.)
ONE teaspoon contains at least 1000 different pigs.
One teaspoon of piggy powder and you aint going to jew " heaven "
Remember.
When you die. You will meet a bloke with a list.
And on fhat List, at number 214 . Total Consumption of pig meat.
We are still allowed to Torture seafood.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Very true, I actually avoid seafood altogether in terms of restaurants and cooking.
I feel i would find it hard to kill a pig.
From 200 plus yards with a sniper rifle may be a diffrent story.
Maybe thats the most humane way.
Sniper style. But It aint feasible.
Killing a animal is very manly hey ?
It is not as manly as chopping down a tree But it's close.
But.
We are talking about kosher and halal.
Now I know this has never happened before, but imagihe if you will.
Imagine if something was labeled as halal or kosher but it wasn't done 100 % correctly
Thus it wasn't really halal or kosher.
What could the ummmm. reprocutions be ?
The reprocutions would range from .
NOTHING.
to
ALOT hey? hehe.
Good game.
Good game.
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@RationalMadman
A short Zedku for RM
Religion hey.
It's f**king brilliant.
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@zedvictor4
Religion hey.It's f**king brilliant.
Panders to one group whilst condemning and penalising another.
Animal stunning and killing
You must stun all animals before you kill them,.......................unless you’re carrying out religious slaughter.
When you stun an animal, it must remain unconscious and unable to feel pain until death. Once you stun it, you must kill it immediately. You can use stunning methods that instantly kill an animal, for example using a gun or rifle.
Penalties you could receive
If you commit an offence you’ll have to appear at a magistrates’ court.
If you’re found guilty of an offence you could be either:
- given an unlimited fine
- put in prison for up to 3 months
There's something honest about these more ritual forms of slaughter - I actually find the feigned sterility and mechanical nature of modern slaughter to be more off-putting. Slitting an animal's throat really drives home that you are taking a life - I feel like stun guns, gassing, and electrocution doesn't feel like killing, and so doesn't really respect or acknowledge any moral dimension to what's being done. The animals are treated like vegetables being processed, which has its own sort of quiet horror to it. Given a choice I would still eat meat that was hunted though; I'm glad a grew up in the sticks and knew a bunch of people with freezers full of venison. I feel like hunted meat both has the honesty of the kill and an animal which has lived a free life in nature right up until the day it dies.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Slitting an animal's throat really drives home that you are taking a life.
And?
Animal suffering isn't more important then GOD ?
If God wants it done a certain way then so be it. He made em.
We've been killing, and killing and eating animals for some ( six to seven thousand years* ) now.
* years may drastically vary
☆⊙°•☆⊙°•☆⊙°•☆☆°••☆⊙•☆⊙°•☆°•☆⊙⊙•☆⊙°•☆⊙°••☆⊙⊙•¤
Id have great arguments against slitting animals throats if it wasn't for the brilliant foresight of Gods
That being. Getting a bunch of guys to write shlt down for him and make a book from it so he can like" leave it behind " for us.
Its in the book
FULL STOP
Very well played Gods.
Very well played.
I don't know. Farmers around used to come to my grandfather to "kill the pig" as they called it. He was something of an expert about it apparently. Bit of a giant of a man also, probably helped. But it was that. Hung up, throat slit, let to bleed out. And a big drum underneath to catch the blood. I don't know how needed was that. They didn't have stun guns, gassing, or electrocution for sure. I might have wanted to cave the animal's head in with a sledgehammer first. Anyway, I missed all that.
We have our kind of a ritual when the animals go to slaughter, and I do take comfort in it. Same thing every time. We have this very ugly, very little, very religious man comes with the lorry. An Igor sort of character but not a bit of badness in him. All Holy Gods and Christs Above. The man is more of my religion than any priest I've ever met. Really, I guess he's about all there is to it. I don't know who chose him for the job, but they chose well.
I do hate the idea of factory farms, but mine is not that. There's maybe something in what Skep said too. I'd still have wanted the sledgehammer.