wrongdoings of the prophet of islam

Author: Lunar108
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#31
FLRW
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@Athias

The men who wrote the Bible claimed Mary submitted obediently when she became the Mother of God. That does not mean she was not raped. She was raped because she could not possibly have consented. The Biblical narrative makes it clear Mary was afraid. She had no idea what the consequences would be for refusing her assigned role as Mother of God. Consent to impregnation presumes a relationship of equals which cannot possibly be presumed between a young teen girl and an omnipotent Father God. There was an enormous difference in power. The youngest age of consent in the United States is 16, and an eternal Father God would not pass for an age-gap exception to United States statutory rape laws.
#32
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@FLRW
Well, the Christian God did rape a 14 year old virgin, so I guess Muhammed wanted to be just like him.
Wow!

I can't wait to hear the evidence for this lie.   The lie being an assertion and not a fact.   

You know you really should stop listening to those voices in your head or whatever you read on the internet or in a book. 

I think this comes close to hate speech. 
#33
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@Lunar108
I am not Muslim and I have absolutely no respect for the religion or its leader.  Nevertheless, do Muslim religious scholars agree with these allegations or are they are all derived from interpretations from former Muslims or people not associated with it? 

In other words, why should we trust the voices of those who have a clear bias against Islam? 
#34
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@FLRW
I guess the people that made up gods had a thing for young virgins.
That may a more educated guess or truth than you realize. 

People who have a habit of making up gods might well have an agenda or purpose for their inventions.  Power, wealth, sex, lust etc.

The same things that direct politics the world over. 


Altruism is something not at all related to politics or to many religions or even philanthropists - save and except when it has to do tax savings. 

Christianity on the other hand is not about power or wealth or sex. It's God also is not an invention. Rather God invented Christianity.

Christianity too is not per se about altruism. It is about redemption.  The reverse of power, wealth and lust. 
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#35
Lunar108
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@Tradesecret
the evidence -ironically- is provided by Muslim scholars
of which if muslims denied they will become abostates since denying sahih bukhari and the other four books is what muslims call kufer -apostastasy/infidelity-
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#36
Lunar108
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@Tradesecret
just ask any muslim " is sahih al bukhari wrong ---------------------------- then mention the hadith " they will begin trying to change the topic since if they say , yes it's wrong they become as mentioned before
#37
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@Lunar108
Any conditioned theist will say what any conditioned theist is conditioned to say.

It's the nature of the beast.

Doesn't prove the existence of deities though.

Just proves that people can/will repeat verbatim anything that they are taught/compelled to repeat verbatim.
#38
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@zedvictor4
Anyone conditioned, will say what anyone conditioned, is conditioned to say.
I'd agree.

If every person in the world, regardless of theist or atheist,
Had their life, morals, ethics, choices, stretched and examined,
I'm sure people would have contradictions, or lack sound explanations for everything.
#39
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That's not true. Atheists are perfect and not one thought isn't unique to them and them alone. 
#40
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@Lunar108
Some who came to know my attitude to the religion now and again berate me about it even implying I'm racist to arabs.

I calmly ask them, each time they bring it up, to read the Hadith (first because it makes some things clearer, faster) and then the Qur'an and then to research victims of Sharia regimes, preferably female ones (plenty of such books have been written, non-fictional). It's funny how silent they go when they realise I talk from the position of less ignorance and more open-mindedness. They are quick to change the topic fast especially as they know I'm not a right-wing bigot so no such character assassination will work on me.

When they admit their complete ignorance, I then ask them who is the bigger racist; the one who empathises with ethnicities that are victims of a religion that blackmails them to stay part of it and under its ruthless thumb or the one that supports the idea that the race of the ethnicity can't escape the scarring on its culture done by its horrific creed?
#41
Polytheist-Witch
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If you hate all Muslims because of the bad ones then hating all men because some are rapists is ok too. 
#42
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@Polytheist-Witch
You just love bandying that word "hate" about at every chance, don't you? Witch.  Who is it that you believe on this thread "hates all Muslims"? 



#43
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@Polytheist-Witch
One was merely discussing the processes by which data is acquired, stored, perhaps modified and perhaps transferred.

The concepts of theism and atheism are but relative data arrangements.

As are your own wackier than the normal wacky theistic data arrangements.

Keep up the good work Poly....It brightens my day.
#44
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@Tradesecret
I am not Muslim and I have absolutely no respect for the religion or its leader. ......................................

.................................In other words, why should we trust the voices of those who have a clear bias against Islam? #33

Well that is an arse backward statement if ever I heard one!

Why do you have "absolutely no respect for" Islam or "its leader"?  What are your own biases against Islam and its leader?


#45
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@Stephen
I am not Muslim and I have absolutely no respect for the religion or its leader. ......................................

.................................In other words, why should we trust the voices of those who have a clear bias against Islam? #33

Well that is an arse backward statement if ever I heard one!

Why do you have "absolutely no respect for" Islam or "its leader"?  What are your own biases against Islam and its leader?
When you so package my words into such an argument - all it shows is how you like to twist my words. 

My point above is simple even if you find it difficult to follow along. 

I was clearly stating my bias again Islam. Yet I am providing NOT any arguments against Islam or its leaders - just making an assertion of my own bias. 

My latter comment was to make a query.  Why should we trust any voices which are against Islam about the interpretation of Islam? The topic author kindly provided information which addressed me query.  

I have always had a principle of enquiry when attempting to find out about a particular topic. Go to the horses head and ask them what they believe something means  - rather than relying upon other people's commentary or hearsay notions about what something means. I notice you do not have a similar principle. Rather you just make stuff up. 


#46
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@Tradesecret
Of course, no one is a Muslim as no one is a Christian.

We are all human beings and apply various labels to ourselves, relative to inherited packages of data.

A lot of which emanated from a time of religious fervour and ideology that was extremely popular a couple of thousand years ago.

The machinations of ongoing human migration saw/sees the regional development of various schools of religious thought.

All really based upon the premise, that if you teach your children nonsense, then they will likely as not grow up believing in nonsense.
#47
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@Tradesecret
I was clearly stating my bias again Islam.

So then you are saying that you "have absolutely no respect for Islam or its leader"  for "absolutely " no reason. 


I have always had a principle of enquiry when attempting to find out about a particular topic. Go to the horses head and ask them what they believe something means  - rather than relying upon other people's commentary or hearsay notions about what something means. 

The OP had already given his sources in his first post. Did you look at those sources? 

#48
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@Stephen
I was clearly stating my bias again Islam.

So then you are saying that you "have absolutely no respect for Islam or its leader"  for "absolutely " no reason. 
Not at all Stephen.  My point was that I was disclosing my bias. But also providing no reason since that was not the object of my question. 

I have always had a principle of enquiry when attempting to find out about a particular topic. Go to the horses head and ask them what they believe something means  - rather than relying upon other people's commentary or hearsay notions about what something means. 

The OP had already given his sources in his first post. Did you look at those sources? 
I asked a question. The OP answered.  It is none of your business. 
#49
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@zedvictor4
Of course, no one is a Muslim as no one is a Christian.
Yes, there are some people who are Muslims. And there are people who are Christians.  

We are all human beings and apply various labels to ourselves, relative to inherited packages of data.
So what?  This does stop me being a human being. And nor someone who likes to use labels.   

A lot of which emanated from a time of religious fervour and ideology that was extremely popular a couple of thousand years ago.
Religious fervour is inescapable. As is ideology.  And it's as popular today as it ever has been and always will be. 

The machinations of ongoing human migration saw/sees the regional development of various schools of religious thought.

Religious thought will always be evolving.  Every time a new law is made - and an old law is overturned - a new strain of religious thought occurs. 

All really based upon the premise, that if you teach your children nonsense, then they will likely as not grow up believing in nonsense.
This applies to every thought, political, philosophical, and religious.  

I am not sure what this adds to the conversation.  You are simply stating the obvious. 


#50
Stephen
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@Tradesecret
I was clearly stating my bias again Islam.

So then you are saying that you "have absolutely no respect for Islam or its leader"  for "absolutely " no reason. 
Not at all Stephen.  My point was that I was disclosing my bias. But also providing no reason since that was not the object of my question. 

But it is the object of my question to you, Reverend "Tradey".




I have always had a principle of enquiry when attempting to find out about a particular topic. Go to the horses head and ask them what they believe something means  - rather than relying upon other people's commentary or hearsay notions about what something means. 

The OP had already given his sources in his first post. Did you look at those sources? 
I asked a question. The OP answered.  It is none of your business. 

So then, although the OP had already supplied his sources after his every comment and quote in his initial post #1, you still had the audacity to question the reliability of  his sources without even looking at them yourself!   Do you treat all witness statements in such a dismissive off handed manner in your capacity as a lawyer, Reverend "Tradey"? 


It is none of your business. 


You made it the business of every member here the moment you posted your comment here on a forum on the WWW. You always seem to forget this don't you, Reverend "Tradey"?


#51
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@Tradesecret
Good.

I'm pleased that you find my output obvious.

That implies that my output  is logical and therefore expressed accurately.

As I suggested previously.......You seem to have developed a more pragmatic approach to ideological issues.
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#52
Lunar108
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@Polytheist-Witch

I hate islam NOT muslims , Not just islam I hate all the three abrahamic religions  equally along with many other religions
#53
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@Stephen
I was clearly stating my bias again Islam.

So then you are saying that you "have absolutely no respect for Islam or its leader"  for "absolutely " no reason. 
Not at all Stephen.  My point was that I was disclosing my bias. But also providing no reason since that was not the object of my question. 

But it is the object of my question to you, Reverend "Tradey".

Ok. that is your object.  Good for you.  But it is irrelevant to me. 


I have always had a principle of enquiry when attempting to find out about a particular topic. Go to the horses head and ask them what they believe something means  - rather than relying upon other people's commentary or hearsay notions about what something means. 

The OP had already given his sources in his first post. Did you look at those sources? 
I asked a question. The OP answered.  It is none of your business. 

So then, although the OP had already supplied his sources after his every comment and quote in his initial post #1, you still had the audacity to question the reliability of  his sources without even looking at them yourself!   Do you treat all witness statements in such a dismissive off handed manner in your capacity as a lawyer, Reverend "Tradey"? 
Stephen, I asked a question. He answered it. End of story.  There was no audacity in my response. The OP did not make it clear in his summaries whether these were in fact the way Muslims understood the story of their master.   Quoting a text - even by a Muslim does not automatically follow that this is what they think is the correct understanding. Hey just look at the way you quote the bible and some of its commentators. You don't accurately interpret the bible - and you don't actually articulate what the commentators are saying accurately. You can't do it even when it is pointed out to you the exact meaning. You just reject it.  So don't come the raw prawn with me Stephen.  

It is none of your business. 


You made it the business of every member here the moment you posted your comment here on a forum on the WWW. You always seem to forget this don't you, Reverend "Tradey"?

Nuh - your misunderstanding not mine.  I posted and I can choose not to answer as well. Just like you refused to answer the question others have put to  you. You just refuse to answer questions.  So to be perfectly clear- I choose when I want to answer. And whether i answer or not - is no reflection upon whether I have an answer or not - it is simply my choice. 
#54
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@zedvictor4
Good.

I'm pleased that you find my output obvious.

That implies that my output  is logical and therefore expressed accurately.

As I suggested previously.......You seem to have developed a more pragmatic approach to ideological issues.
Obvious is not necessarily to be equated with logical.  Often times - people can be predictably unpredictable. 

But whatever - if you are suggesting that you are coming around to the truth that God exists and you have a need to repent, then I am all for it. 
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#55
Lunar108
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@Stephen
@Tradesecret
respect is earned , and looking at the behavior of the religious people following islam including -but not limited to- :
1.how far they are willing to go to prevent people from offering any criticism or satire towards islam ,
2.how willing they are to force reinterpretations and alter the meaning of words in their books just to forcefully include scientific discoveries  , I learned arabic since I was young along with other languages and I know that all the scientific nonsense you claim mentioned in the holy Quran is just misinterpreted words
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(one example wasaa , which muslims claim that it means widen in the scientific discovery of how the quran mentions the widens of the universe since people who don't know arabic wouldn't know the truth , waseaa means widen in arabic , wasaa means can , capable , in that verse and not widens yet unless you learn arabic for years you wouldn't know that , wasaa and waseaa may look similar but they are very different  )
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3.crazy Ideologies : multiple Ideologies that muslims teach their children -especially in the middle east- cause their children to have the seeds which would turn them into terrorists -including :
1. don't fear death
2. defend allah and muhammad with your own lives
3. 72 vergins in the afterlife
4.you must love muhammad more than yourself, your money , your parents , your wife and children otherwise you will not enter heaven
5. the quran is the answer to everything and the quran can never be wrong
and many more
out of 21 muslim countries
13 have the death penalty for homosexuality in their laws .
5  have indefinite imprisonment for homos .
islam have the death penalty for homosexuality and mentioned the story of the people of lut/lot where allah punish those people for their sexual orientation mentioned in the holy quran
=================================================================
I say that islam is not worthy of any respect
#56
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@Tradesecret
I would suggest that to find something obvious, implies that something is logical.

Predictably unpredictable also implies a certain level of logical understanding.


Nonetheless...What is the difference between predictably unpredictable and predictably predictable.

So I would further suggest that if someone is predictably unpredictable, then they are also predictably predictable.

In so much as their unpredictability is predictable.


And GODS can represent a million things.

And the notion of repentance doesn't register with me at all.
#57
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@Lunar108
Respect is something that comes with the territory and at other times must be earned.  Police Officers, judges in a court room, soldiers in battle, politicians in government, parents, clergy, and some others in society are entitled to respect for the sake of their office or role.  A mother or a father does not need to earn the respect of their child. That would be a nonsense. 

Yet, others do need to earn respect.  Friends don't automatically have respect. You need to earn it. Teachers don't automatically have respect - they need to earn it. Politicians don't automatically get respect. Celebrities - have to earn it. 

So I agree with you on one hand - but disagree with you on another.  God does not need to earn our respect.  I think that is an absurd thing to say. We need to earn his respect. And I think we fail at that daily. 

God = authority.  God is entitled to  respect by virtue of his role as creator. As his role as judge. As his role as Father of the world.  King etc. 

It is ridiculous to suggest God has to deserve our respect.  

Islam is a religion. As I said above I don't respect it. But not respecting - does not mean I will treat it with contempt. It does not mean I will tell lies about it. It does not mean I will go out of my way to revile it. Not respecting something does not mean to ridiculing it. I think not respecting something does not entitle us to speak ill of something.  Speaking ill of something is more actually not respecting ourselves. 

We can ridicule things we respect.  .  We would not tell lies though. Or misrepresent it. We would not revile something we respect.  For example, I respect our government - but I will ridicule it when it does something worth ridiculing it for.  I respect my government but there are times when I will show contempt towards it. I won't tell lies about it. I won't revile it. I disagree with it politically - but I will still respect.  For me I will comply with it - unless it asks me to sin. Even if it is inconvenient for me to comply. I might ridicule it for its foolishness. Yet I will respect it by compliance. 

Islam as a religion is a ridiculous religion. It is a religion that requires obedience and submission.  It is a religion that indicates that salvation is earned by obedience. And obedience not just to a dead prophet but to a God that is not personal and has no concern for me. Its God - ALLAH rules by fear and the sword. Should there be respect? I said above I have no respect for it. I ought to qualify that as in regards to theology and philosophy. For in a country ruled in accord with Islam law - respect is necessary. Sharia Law is deadly if there is no respect.  So, I confess I do respect it in some circumstances. 

Yet, I take the view that we ought to understand Islam - as it is understood by its Scholars and academics and clergy- in order to contrast and compare it with our own ideologies. Whether it be Christian or Secular or Hindu etc.  Our own measure of good and evil or right and wrong is immeasurably important to determine how Islam stacks up. 

and yet there are many Muslims in this world who are lovely people.  People I talk with and share meals with frequently.  Not every Muslim is a violent enemy of the state - breathing the firebrand sermons of the fundamentalist.  Their religion is not necessarily consistent with their book or with their teachers- they seem to have evolved above their religion to a greater and more compromised view of the world.  

For these people - they deny in essence the stories told about their founder. And I would never try and convince them otherwise.  What use would that be unless I was attempting to convert them to something else - including atheism or Christianity or Buddhism.  



#58
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@zedvictor4
Nonetheless...What is the difference between predictably unpredictable and predictably predictable.

So I would further suggest that if someone is predictably unpredictable, then they are also predictably predictable.

In so much as their unpredictability is predictable.
I say for someone to be unpredictably predictable you would need to first speculate various incorrect outcomes. That would be the difference. 
#59
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@zedvictor4
I would suggest that to find something obvious, implies that something is logical.
Suggest away then.    It does not imply that someone is logical. 

Predictably unpredictable also implies a certain level of logical understanding.
No not really.  If someone is always unpredictable - there is no logic in what they do except - the deduction that it is not predictable. That is not really does not show logic - except by the person observing. 

Nonetheless...What is the difference between predictably unpredictable and predictably predictable.
Word play. 

So I would further suggest that if someone is predictably unpredictable, then they are also predictably predictable.
further word play

In so much as their unpredictability is predictable.
Blah blah

And GODS can represent a million things.
what do you mean? Are you using God as a noun actively doing something or as a noun passively doing something? 


And the notion of repentance doesn't register with me at all.

Well that is a shame. I thought you were suggesting you were compromising. I think repentance - saying sorry - is a jolly good start. Throw yourself on the mercy of God - and who knows - perhaps - you might see the light. 
#60
Polytheist-Witch
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@Lunar108
You can't separate a philosophy that you think is hate filled from the people who practice it. No one says white supremacy sucks but I can hang out with white supremacist. I am sure atheists will say "sure we can" but that's a lie. No one does that. So you can say it to please some here,  I know better.