Should reparations be provided for slavery?

Author: drlebronski

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@TheUnderdog
If blacks want more family wealth, they should invest.  They have the per capita income as a group comparable to White Canadians, so this shouldn't be that hard for them.
I'd like a source on this. Shitty attitude towards your neighbours regardless. 
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@TheUnderdog
Funny you'll present that as hard numbers. I bet there's a thousand lurking variables in it.
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@badger
Can you list any lurking variables?  They might exist, but the burden of presenting lurking variables is on you.  Black people are doing just fine in the US economically, although they would be doing better if they were raised in 2 parent homes and if they invested more.
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@TheUnderdog
I'll leave it to Double above, he's the accountant. They definitely exist. Black people are doing just fine in the US economically, although they would be doing better if they weren't brought here as slaves in the first place. It's like kicking the shit out of someone and then telling them they'd fine if they joined a gym. You're giving good advice here, dude. 
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Except most of the gyms are whites only. Bet education in Canada is cheaper than America too. 
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@badger
 although they would be doing better if they weren't brought here as slaves in the first place.
At this point, black people being slaves would be nominal in terms of their wealth today.  If someone has a 100 meter headstart in a 200 meter race, that person will probably win.  If that same person had a 100 meter start in a marathon, they are less likely to win because as time goes on, the headstart one receives becomes less and less relevant.

Except most of the gyms are whites only.
This also isn't true.

Bet education in Canada is cheaper than America too.
Then your getting into a debate about free college, which that is another topic.  You can start a thread on that if you want, but I'd prefer to stay on topic.
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@TheUnderdog
How do you not recognise a metaphor when you write one at me right above it? But it's nothing as simple as a foot race, and it hasn't been a long time. How much racist sentiment do you hear daily? I bet a mountain of it. The banker is a white man. It's a game of monopoly where the white man has hotels on every square already. 
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theunderdog deosnt understand in diffent countries money works differently
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@badger
The monopoly game resets every generation and blacks have had 2 generations to play a better game.  Reperations would destroy the US economy if we paid black people for 400 years of slavery.  If someone says something racist to you, it won’t make your life worse.
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@TheUnderdog
you realize reparations isn't just giving them money right? Its fixing their areas so they can get a good education.
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@drlebronski
Reparations means cash....That's what it's all about.

That's why certain people have to keep harping on about Black slavery and nasty  White Men.

I got an education and made a living by working at it.

Not by sitting on my arse expecting someone else to do it for me.




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@thett3
Do you have evidence that the descendants of people who owned slaves 150 years ago are wealthier than the descendants of white people who didn’t own slaves, and if so, where that gap came from?
The argument is not that white slave owners became wealthy all because they owned slaves and now those slave owners have to give that wealth back. The argument is that black people were systematically kept from being able to attain their own wealth for centuries, and then unleashed with nothing into a society where wealth begets wealth.

I really don't understand what is so complicated about this. Do you believe a child born into poverty is more or less likely to remain in poverty thoughout their life? All you need is to understand the fact that the answer is yes. From there it's just basic math.

In probability there are always outliers, but based on the law of large numbers it's a statical impossibility that an entire race of people systematically kept in poverty will within 150 years catch up to the race that started off literally owning everything, so to say that you think it's just coincidence is absurd.
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@zedvictor4
reparations definition--- the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged.


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@Double_R
The argument is not that white slave owners became wealthy all because they owned slaves and now those slave owners have to give that wealth back. The argument is that black people were systematically kept from being able to attain their own wealth for centuries, and then unleashed with nothing into a society where wealth begets wealth.
Wealth does beget wealth—if you can hold onto it. I think you’d be hard pressed to find families of any color that held onto wealth that long. I just don’t view slavery as relevant at all to modern day personal finance. If you want to prove me wrong cough up some numbers, I would be genuinely fascinated to see them. 

I really don't understand what is so complicated about this. Do you believe a child born into poverty is more or less likely to remain in poverty thoughout their life? All you need is to understand the fact that the answer is yes. From there it's just basic math.
Of course, so without intervention we would certainly expect black outcomes to lag white outcomes, at least for a few generations. The question now becomes how long can you reasonably attribute problems to the past? It’s reasonable to me that Jim Crow laws have at least some extant legacy, but slavery? Come on. That was what, 6 generations ago? My problem is there actually has been significant intervention for quite a while now (affirmative action, great society programs, special minority only scholarships) but things aren’t getting better.

In Charles Murray’s new book “Facing Reality” he presented ironclad evidence that the gap between black and white standardized test scores narrowed significantly between the 1950s and the 1980s only to stagnate ever since. So it seems that racist laws were holding black people back and once those laws were eliminated there was significant improvement—that then stalled out. Something else happened. I know it’s currently in vogue to argue that the US is a white supremacist society but I don’t buy that whatsoever.

There’s another variable here, IMO it’s the total destruction of traditional family and community life that hit lower socioeconomic status Americans extremely hard starting in the 60s/70s along with the decline of working class jobs. That’s not something that is fixed through reparations or whatever but through rebuilding communities and a healthy economy. In fact all this racial politics stuff just makes the situation worse by dividing workers and obfuscating the real issue 

In probability there are always outliers, but based on the law of large numbers it's a statical impossibility that an entire race of people systematically kept in poverty will within 150 years catch up to the race that started off literally owning everything, so to say that you think it's just coincidence is absurd.
Siri, what was the Shtetl?
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@Double_R
His only argument is that they have similar money to people in canada. and he doesn't understand that different countries have different prices and different levels of inflation.
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@drlebronski
yup
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Reparations would be unconstitutional, violating Article I, section 9, clause 3: no ex post facto law.
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@drlebronski
Why should I, as a tax payer, have to pay reparations to someone I have never harmed in my life.
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@TheUnderdog
Do you believe a child born into a family that is uneducated, is more or less likely to grow up educated?
In my personal experience, the vast majority of kids were going to college, whether their parents were educated or not.
I'm not asking about college, im asking about basic knowledge and skills ones needs to be successful within a given society. If for example, a child grows up in a household living off of welfare, do you believe this child is now or less likely to grow up understanding how investing and entrepreneurship works? Answer: of course not.

Do you believe a child born into poverty is more or less likely to live in poverty as an adult?
Yes; but their skin color isn't a factor in this.
I didn't say anything about skin color. It's a simple question and the answer is obvious; yes, of course they are.

You can't expect the child of a slave to learn anything about the society they are trying to navigate through.
Black people despite being descendants of slaves can learn just fine.
I never said they couldn't. The question isn't about their abilities, it's about their opportunities. You can't expect it because their parents were in no position to teach them anything about the world so they are starting off with a clear and significant disadvantage, especially when you consider the climate they were in.

So add of of this up and what do you get? A very simple equation. If the decendants of slaves were significantly disadvantaged, there is a far less likelihood that they would have been successful. Multiply those odds a few more times and you get right about to where we are today. Conclusion: the wealth gap in this country is not a coincidence.
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@thett3
Of course, so without intervention we would certainly expect black outcomes to lag white outcomes, at least for a few generations.
Then why are you arguing with me? The first comment you responded to was my question about whether the large racial wealth gap in this country is coincidence, to which you replied yes. So which is it?

My problem is there actually has been significant intervention for quite a while now (affirmative action, great society programs, special minority only scholarships) but things aren’t getting better. 
Those aren't significant

That’s not something that is fixed through reparations or whatever but through rebuilding communities and a healthy economy.
Agreed, which is why I'm post #3 of this thread I said I was not for reparations. I do recognize that some people are calling that reparations but it doesn't fit into the definition and to me is a terrible way to make the point because it is horribly unclear.

In fact all this racial politics stuff just makes the situation worse by dividing workers and obfuscating the real issue 
Which is part of the problem. Why are white people so sensitive to this conversation? I mean look at the freak out over critical race theory...
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@Double_R
What do you think should be done? I consider you to be among the most rational and fair minded people who I’ve seen argue strongly for this sort of thing so what would your plan be? 

Which is part of the problem. Why are white people so sensitive to this conversation? I mean look at the freak out over critical race theory...
We aren’t. Not more than anyone else would be, and probably less. Most cultures (example: the Japanese) whitewash their historical crimes whereas Europeans seem to self flagellate these days. 
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That was interesting i guess my definition of reparations is bad.
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I would imagine there's a lot of people in the US cross the streets when they see black kids, or hoods anyway, or whatever you might call them. This is a hyper-individualistic world, we're all against everyone else in everything, for grades, results, women, everything. And the average person grew up in their own little bubble, had nothing to do with slavery, and is just trying to get along, and probably feels pressed upon by black youths, and resents that. And next thing there's a politics of giving things to these people, scholarships, opportunities, money. You can empathise with that too. The world's a bit shit tbh. Philanthropy's for bored rich people. 

But the black kid has it worse. He just does tbh. 

Funding for outreach programs. Affirmative action kinda dealies. Real opportunities. All of that would go a long way. Affirmative action would obviously want to be properly managed and not just about having a token black guy in the class, rather set up for his success. It should all be personal level stuff, not systemic bullshit. I dunno, this stuff seems obvious. I don't even think you need much of a plan in it before it starts being good. But how else do you raise someone up? 2 generations a freed slave isn't much. We're only a hundred years free of the English, we've a thousand songs and poems about it, it's deep in our psyche, but we have our own country, our own people, we're not living amongst our former antagonists a second class citizen, lesser in a thousand ways. I'd bomb something new every day tbh lol. I dunno.

I think once you've an eye to see it, it's easy to see that's there something wrong. But there's lot of things wrong, sure. 
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I can't name an Irish hero that wasn't sticking it to the English. Something wrong there too, and I hope England sinks tbh. But we're all just trying to get along, eh?
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@drlebronski
Should reparations be provided for slavery? - drlebronski
Vague.
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@thett3
We aren’t. Not more than anyone else would be, and probably less. Most cultures (example: the Japanese) whitewash their historical crimes whereas Europeans seem to self flagellate these days. 
This is extremely true. I have agreed with the Right Wing on this for a while, non-Caucasian racism is far more masked and even entire history rewritten with a huge bias inside of such nations.

The 'supremacy complex' because of where one came from is there in all races and cultures but is only weak and diluted in either Caucasian cultures or cultures that were subject to their imperial wrath (such as ex-commonwealth nations where people are sometimes not super proud of their nation and its history).
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@RationalMadman
This is extremely true. I have agreed with the Right Wing on this for a while, non-Caucasian racism is far more masked and even entire history rewritten with a huge bias inside of such nations.

The 'supremacy complex' because of where one came from is there in all races and cultures but is only weak and diluted in either Caucasian cultures or cultures that were subject to their imperial wrath (such as ex-commonwealth nations where people are sometimes not super proud of their nation and its history).
Right...Double_R asks why white people get defensive, and I suspect this is why. I know for me it's definitely why--I get defensive because I feel singled out, because we basically only talk about western civilizations faults. I hate the "Dems r the real racists" stuff but there is a weird Eurocentrism to the lefts entire historical narrative, like white men are these giants that stand astride history, all powerful and untouchable, and are the ultimate cause of almost everything. Hell, there's something close to a genocide going on right now in China and nobody seems to really care.
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@thett3
What do you think should be done? I consider you to be among the most rational and fair minded people who I’ve seen argue strongly for this sort of thing so what would your plan be?
I don’t exactly have an economic plan drafted onto my website but this is why I generally support policies aimed an ensuring all Americans have as close to an equal opportunity to be successful as possible. So things like ensuring that schools are equally funded so you don’t have rich kids getting a better education than kids in poor neighborhoods, progressive taxation and estate taxes, finding ways to reduce college admissions… essentially anything that targets the less advantaged aside from just handing them money.

The reason I don’t believe in reparations is because it’s the wrong approach. I believe policies targeting the less advantaged in our society the best way to move forward because it will have the effect of uplifting those who are still impacted by our past but will do it in a way that is fair and just to all Americans.

In the end I think we all believe mostly the same thing, that our fortunes are and should be the result of our decisions. What I think is largely overlooked by the political right is that the circumstances we are born into has a big impact on our ability to make good decisions.
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I'm not sure what the point of bringing up other bad shit is tbh. It comes out sounding like "Oh but you guys did this too, this is just the game we were playing, right? And we came out on top." I guess that's fair in a warped sort of way, but unless you want more of the same, be something different.