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@Double_R
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Should reparations be provided for slavery?
Posts
Total:
148
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@TheUnderdog
You can't punish people for stuff they legally did even if it's immoral by today's standards.
I literally can, but what does that have to do with my post? I was very clear that I was talking about slavery and human trafficking. To my knowledge that is not legal anywhere.
Human traficing victims had illegal stuff done to them, so you reperate them not from tax dollars, but from the funds of the offender.
Yes, that is exactly what I said. I don't see anything wrong with that. Please explain why you disagree with this idea.
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@badger
This world is extremely individualistic and this is good. Otherwise all men would go to jail because some of them rape. Blacks can get ahead just like anyone else.
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@TheUnderdog
You realize that's not how society works right? you cant just "get ahead" after being a slave for 400 years and then segregated for 150. As the man on your profile picture once said "facts don't care about your feelings"
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@Double_R
Reparations isn’t punishment any more than an infrastructure project in Kentucky is punishment to anyone not living in Kentucky. You really need to drop this argument.
If I don't benefit from an infrastructure project (lets say I live in a rich part of the country) then a tax is essentially a punishment for being rich.
Reparations is about trying to right the wrongs of the past, not because those actions were wrong morally but because the legacy of slavery still impacts the black community today.
The legacy of slavery doesn't impact blacks today anymore than marital rape being legal in the past harms women today. You don't see women demanding reperations for marital rape.
Question; do you think it’s just coincidence that the same race who enslaved and thereby built their wealth on top of the free labor of black people, today have a median net worth that is 20 times that of the median black household?
There are lurking variables; most whites (especially in the northeast) didn't own slaves even when it was legal in part of the country. Whites are less likely to grow up in single motherhood homes, and more likely to invest in stock that gets 10% richer every year. When these things happen, of course whites are going to be richer than blacks. If blacks want to get richer, rather than steal white people's money through taxes, they can invest more of their money and not grow up in single motherhood homes. Blacks certainly have the money to invest, with a per capita income comparable to white Canadians(canada gdp per capita - Bing)(List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia). They just need to get investing and they will build up their wealth because the stock market becomes 10% richer every year.
If you do then let’s perform the following experiment; let’s spend, say, the next 400 years enslaving every White person and building the nations wealth on their free labor.
The wealth America built on slavery is gone because wealth is lost with consumption and all the liquid assets America had with slavery got consumed already.
Reperations would be incredibly expensive if paid to their logical conclusion (giving every African American wages for 400 years of work assuming slavery was earned for minimum wage would be $12 million per African American which is 16x the annual national budget. Since slave work is harder than minimum wage jobs, this would be more), it would drive this nation deeper into debt. Adding interest would destroy the economy. It will not even help African Americans out because people are stupid with money they don't earn. This is why you see lottery winners being broke within a few years after they get millions of dollars they didn't earn.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You can't punish people for stuff they legally did even if it's immoral by today's standards.I literally can
No you can't. Then George Washington would have to be punished for owning hundreds of slaves even though it was legal when he did it.
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@drlebronski
You realize that's not how society works right? you cant just "get ahead" after being a slave for 400 years and then segregated for 150.
You can get ahead despite that and this is why the per capita income of African Americans is today comparable to white Canadians((canada gdp per capita - Bing)(List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia)).
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@TheUnderdog
You can get ahead despite that and this is why the per capita income of African Americans is today comparable to white Canadian
That's completely relevant just because there income is comparable to people in a completely different country this isn't an argument at all.
"There are lurking variables; most whites (especially in the northeast) didn't own slaves even when it was legal in part of the country. Whites are less likely to grow up in single motherhood homes, and more likely to invest in stock that gets 10% richer every year. When these things happen, of course whites are going to be richer than blacks. If blacks want to get richer, rather than steal white people's money through taxes, they can invest more of their money and not grow up in single motherhood homes. Blacks certainly have the money to invest, with a per capita income comparable to white Canadians(canada gdp per capita - Bing)(List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia). They just need to get investing and they will build up their wealth because the stock market becomes 10% richer every year."
I've already debunked this in a debate. "most whites didn't own slaves" most black people WERE slaves.
"Whites are less likely to grow up in single motherhood homes" already debunked this the study that showed this used unmarried as the definition of single. further proof black people don't have much money.
"they can invest more of their money and not grow up in single motherhood homes." That's just like the stop being poor argument. you clearly have 0 idea of what your talking about.
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@drlebronski
That's completely relevant just because there income is comparable to people in a completely different country this isn't an argument at all.
I'm saying that black Americans are plenty wealthy as a group, just like white Canadians are pretty wealthy as a group.
I've already debunked this in a debate. "most whites didn't own slaves" most black people WERE slaves.
And the people that are descended of the owners of the blacks are more poor than your typical white Yankee.
already debunked this the study that showed this used unmarried as the definition of single. further proof black people don't have much money.
Regardless of your definition of "single motherhood" whether it be, "unmarried" or, "solo mother", blacks are more likely to suffer from single motherhood.
"they can invest more of their money and not grow up in single motherhood homes." That's just like the stop being poor argument. you clearly have 0 idea of what your talking about.
The argument is though that blacks already aren't poor unless you would call the typical white Canadian poor because the per capita incomes of white Canadians vs black Americans is comparable.
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@Lemming
I didn't quote him so the fact that this wasn't clear is on me and I am sorry, but I was referring to the direct conversation between he and I. Specifically post 36, where he was responding to post 32.
I sit there and say that victims of human trafficking should be given financial aid by confiscating assets from their traffickers, and his response is to say that we should not punish some dude that has been dead over 200 years. Like, how does your brain work? He has been dead for over 200 years. Nobody could punish him even if we wanted to. Am I crazy or is that a blatant and complete non-sequitor?
Also still confused about his "can't punish immoral people that aren't breaking the law". Like I said, to my knowledge slavery and human trafficking (what I was talking about in post 25) is not legal anywhere...
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Well, that 'does make more sense.
Possible it was just a miscommunication, as the topic seems created to speak of Pre Emancipation in the USA, slavery.
So he might have taken your post #25, to be speaking of that, rather than modern slavery/human trafficking.
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@Lemming
Possibly. I will restate my stance on the issue in the thread title and opening post to clarify.
I think that every slave/human trafficking victim should be freed and compensated by confiscating assets from their captors/traffickers.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I think that every slave/human trafficking victim should be freed and compensated by confiscating assets from their captors/traffickers. - Discipulus_Didicit
I'm not sure that's a 'bad proposition, though I'd need to think about it.
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@Double_R
Exactly.
Cherry picking the juicy bits of history.
Just as you cherry picked one line from my previous post.
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@TheUnderdog
You're not very bright honestly.
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@TheUnderdog
If I don't benefit from an infrastructure project then a tax is essentially a punishment for being rich.
Punishment is by definition, an act of retribution. This is not remotely the same thing. Please stop with this argument, it really makes you look bad.
The legacy of slavery doesn't impact blacks today anymore than marital rape being legal in the past harms women today.
Marital rape did not stop families from attaining wealth that could have been passed down to their children.
There are lurking variables... Whites are less likely to grow up in single motherhood homes, and more likely to invest in stock that gets 10% richer every year. When these things happen, of course whites are going to be richer than blacks.
You ignored the entire point of my post. What you just described are the results of the experiment I described. I'm taking about the cause.
Do you believe a child raised without a father is more or less likely to raise their own child?
Do you believe a child born into a family that is uneducated, is more or less likely to grow up educated?
Do you believe a child born into poverty is more or less likely to live in poverty as an adult?
It's as if you have no concept of how today impacts tomorrow, or how each of us as individuals are molded by our experiences. You can't expect the child of a slave to learn anything about the society they are trying to navigate through. That is a clear systemic disadvantage that can be expected to carry on to their decendants, especially when that same society would spend the next 100 or so years doing what it can to ensure their decendants remain disadvantaged.
I know you want to make this complicated but it's actually really simple... The racial wealth gap in this country is not a coincidence. That's it, that's all.
Reperations would be incredibly expensive if paid to their logical conclusion
I don't know why you're bothering since I already made clear in post #3 that I don't believe in reparations. I'm just pointing out why your arguments here are terrible.
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@zedvictor4
Just as you cherry picked one line from my previous post.
Cherry picking is when you present an argument based on only the facts that suit your narrative and disregard those that don't. I wasn't presenting an argument, I was responding to a comment. Big difference.
Instead of whinning because I didn't respond to the points you wanted me to, I think it would be better if you actually defended your own statement.
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@Double_R
Question; do you think it’s just coincidence that the same race who enslaved and thereby built their wealth on top of the free labor of black people, today have a median net worth that is 20 times that of the median black household?
Yes. There is close to zero wealth left in white hands from slavery. Most of that wealth was wiped out during and after the civil war, and what little remained would have been squandered or dwindled over the years as few families can retain significant wealth over that many generations. Of the tiny handful of family fortunes that exist from the antebellum period few if any got their wealth from slavery.
Do you have evidence that the descendants of people who owned slaves 150 years ago are wealthier than the descendants of white people who didn’t own slaves, and if so, where that gap came from?
If you do then let’s perform the following experiment; let’s spend, say, the next 400 years enslaving every White person and building the nations wealth on their free labor.
The nations wealth was not built on slavery, which was a net economic detriment to the benefit of the slave holding caste. The entire country would have been wealthier were it not for slavery, except the slave holding caste. https://www.aier.org/article/slavery-did-not-make-america-richer/
Never understood why people arguing for this go for slavery instead of Jim crow laws and other things for which some of the victims are still alive, instead of the last ones dying nearly a century ago.
I think a lot of what we argue about is downstream of media narratives which is a problem when they are trying to generate clicks instead of advocating for actual policy. Huge reparations for slavery, something nobody alive suffered from (and very few living people are old enough to have even met a former slave) is a lot more controversial than some kind of targeted payment towards living people who were actually wronged in a tangible and quantifiable way
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@thett3
Do you have evidence that the descendants of people who owned slaves 150 years ago are wealthier than the descendants of white people who didn’t own slaves, and if so, where that gap came from?
is a lot more controversial than some kind of targeted payment towards living people who were actually wronged in a tangible and quantifiable way
My country is the only country in the world with less of a population today than it had in 1850, as a result of the famine. That's less loosey-goosey, sure, but it's a little crazy to think there's not a knock-on effect. 150 years is not a long time.
The nations wealth was not built on slavery, which was a net economic detriment to the benefit of the slave holding caste. The entire country would have been wealthier were it not for slavery, except the slave holding caste.
So slavery hurt you too? lol.
Weird argument, dude.
Weird argument, dude.
Also reparations are a terrible idea because after a few years everyone would end up right back where they were. Most people, white or black or really anything, are not trained to handle lump sums of money and usually end up losing it after a short period (go ahead and look at the long term outcomes of many lottery winners for example). All that would happen would be a TON of bad blood
The best way to help black people would be to rebuild a pro-worker American economy where you don’t have to go to school for 16 years to get a decent job and where there is still an industrial base. Go ahead and start this rebuilding process in disadvantaged and poor areas, it would help black people disproportionately without having to be racially based
We invested your slave produce and it went bust, sorry no reparations.
Ah, ok. No hard feelings.
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@badger
My country is the only country in the world with less of a population today than it had in 1850, as a result of the famine. That's less loosey-goosey, sure, but it's a little crazy to think there's not a knock-on effect. 150 years is not a long time.
Yeah I remember seeing that statistic and it blew my mind. The Irish diaspora is ridiculously huge, although you have lots of Americans or Canadians who are like 1/4th or 1/8th Irish or something in that number
Europeans and Americans have a different mindset about what constitutes a long time. For us 150 years is over half our history, for you that’s like a newer than average church. But yeah it’s hard to figure out everything. I don’t think there’s no effect from history but it just isn’t from inheritance. It just isn’t. People suck at holding onto money that long!
Also another difference between euros and Americans actually. There are tons of aristocratic families in Europe who have held onto wealth for generations but it seems to be so much less common here
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@thett3
For us 150 years is over half our history, for you that’s like a newer than average church.
I really like this line.
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@badger
Are there lords and dukes and such in Ireland or is that reserved for the UK?
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@Double_R
Do you believe a child raised without a father is more or less likely to raise their own child?
I think less likely because single motherhood tends to be a black problem where blacks tend to have it the most, so the single motherhood stays in the same race.
Do you believe a child born into a family that is uneducated, is more or less likely to grow up educated?
In my personal experience, the vast majority of kids were going to college, whether their parents were educated or not.
Do you believe a child born into poverty is more or less likely to live in poverty as an adult?
Yes; but their skin color isn't a factor in this.
You can't expect the child of a slave to learn anything about the society they are trying to navigate through.
Black people despite being descendants of slaves can learn just fine.
I don't know why you're bothering since I already made clear in post #3 that I don't believe in reparations.
I didn't read post 3; my bad. I thought you supported reperations.
If blacks want more family wealth, they should invest. They have the per capita income as a group comparable to White Canadians, so this shouldn't be that hard for them.
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@thett3
We got a few British Knights knocking around. Funny story, I crashed my first car into a Knight's castle wall, took out about 6 meters of masonry. About fifteen people turned up for me and we cleared the road, got the car out of there, everything, brushes, shovels, the lot, 2 am in the morning. The Knight came looking, asking about 50 grand for his wall, there wasn't a Catholic said a word. That's a people lol.