Anyone who picks a side as a 'pure victim' with Israel and Hamas doesn't understand the full story.

Author: RationalMadman

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@Dr.Franklin
Top of the morning to you Doc.

And yep... A reasonable short summary of recent history.

Though I think Dubya would have probably used the word hurtified.



Borders are fictitious lines, on maps and in heads.

And I'm a citizen of Planet Earth, sub-categorized as European, then British, born in England and living in Wales..... And like most similarly placed people, I regard all those across the Irish pond, as Irish of Earthling extraction.

And "The Troubles".....Were silly men with guns and bombs, harping on about the past.....Certain parallels  to be drawn with the Israeli, Palestinian troubles, for sure.


And all depending upon which bit of the past one wishes to dwell upon, of course.


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@Greyparrot
No, we should have given the IRA $7 billion per year to buy military jets

Potatoes>oil
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@bmdrocks21
Potatoes would have swung it.

And don't forget that Orange William was a Dutchman.


Not to be confused with Orange Donald.....And talking about vegetables....Was he a Swede? 


Living in the past as Jethro Tull said.

No...Not the seed drill bloke.
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@zedvictor4
Is this some kind of Haiku? 😂
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@bmdrocks21
Let's call it a Zedku.

The rule is:
Zedkus can't exceed 60 syllables.

Why not have a go?


Oh you just did.


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@zedvictor4

Borders are fictitious lines, on maps and in heads.
No there not, there important to nations

And "The Troubles".....Were silly men with guns and bombs, harping on about the past.....Certain parallels  to be drawn with the Israeli, Palestinian troubles, for sure.


And all depending upon which bit of the past one wishes to dwell upon, of course.
why there is obviously tons of history to the conflct, the conflict was just as apparent in the present times as well and not all of it was based on what HAD happened, there is actually a lot of parrarels to the israeli palestine conflict except the death ratio, israel has killed 300 people in their recent war while hamas has killed 10 civilians.
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@zedvictor4
The typical result of a bag-shag, not that I would know by any experience. Bag, as in, putting one over the head of...
or, not bothering because the shagee is a bag, but you don't care 'cause you're three sheets
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Any enemy of the Middle Eastern Muslims is a friend of mine 🤷‍♂️
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@ILikePie5
You need to get out more.


The majority of people across the World just want a quiet life.

And then there's the minority!.......And they exist all across the World too.

The minority and their stupid ideas, always f**k things up for everyone else.
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@Dr.Franklin
For sure, fictitious lines are relative to nationhood.

But if there is no one there with a barrier or a gun, then the line fictitious line is inconsequential.

Such is Ireland.


The real barrier is the  inherited ideology, culture and resentment of memory zealots.
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@coal
I'm really not kidding when I say I will never support any "Palestinian" state.   And that stance has less to do with my feelings about Palestinians than with the civilizational risks of national self determination.  
What do you view as the civilizational risks of national self-determination?
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@coal
I decline to consider this issue from the perspective of who "owns" or has any "right" to claim any land --- especially where such claims are based on ethnic or national identity.  Neither ethnicity nor nationality can "entitle" a person to own a piece of geographic territory.  In this way, I do not defend Israel's possession of any land or territory on the basis of their purported "right" to it.  Nor, for that matter, will I ever support vesting the Palestinians with any state based on their ethnicity or nationality. 
Why do you defend Israel's possession of land?

As a general matter, what justifies possession of land?
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@zedvictor4
no matter borders, the conflcit would still be there
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@coal
"I decline to consider this issue from the perspective of who "owns" or has any "right" to claim any land --- especially where such claims are based on ethnic or national identity.  Neither ethnicity nor nationality can "entitle" a person to own a piece of geographic territory.  In this way, I do not defend Israel's possession of any land or territory on the basis of their purported "right" to it.  Nor, for that matter, will I ever support vesting the Palestinians with any state based on their ethnicity or nationality. 

I do not now, and will never, support giving the Palestinians a state; nor do I even think it is proper to refer to "Palestine" as a state, where it is no such thing.  " 

I completely agree with this. WW1 and WW2. Wars have consequences for the losers. Islam took the side of the Nazis. The state of Israel was created by the winners of those wars.  Palestine was absorbed by Ottoman empire in 1517.  So with that said >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is if you don't believe world wars don't have consequences based on what side you choose to be allied with.


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@sadolite
Well said. 
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@sadolite
Are you joking or something? The middle east were aligned with Britain and France in both wars. The entire Saudi Arabia and Iraq were invented by backroom dealings with Churchill primarily and FDR secondarily.

As for Iran, US and UK made sure that the Muslims won and remained in power there when the Persians who believe(d) in a Pagan religion of their own and had opposed Islamic rule begged the French and British for help.
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UK stabbed the middle east in the back in multiple ways, as did US. This even goes past the cold war.
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@sadolite
 Islam took the side of the Nazis.
where do you get that?
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@Dr.Franklin
Islam and a country are two different things. Islam is a theocracy that rules the people who follow it regardless of  who claims to rule the country. Islam and those who followed it were allied with Hitler. They and Hitler had the same goal, extermination of the Jews. Nothing has changed.
 

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@sadolite
There is a difference between Islam and national socialism.
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@Dr.Franklin
Ya, so,  both wanted the Jews exterminated. Nothing has changed as far as Islam goes. 
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@sadolite
ok, when were on the topic of anti Semitism, various ideologies have been anti Semitic and it isnt comparable to just nazism

For example, russian whites and russian nationalists slaughtered hundreds of thousands of jews in Eastern Europe in the 19th and early 20th century, does that mean their ideology is like hitlers?

Anti Semitism is truly awful, but i dont see how different ideologies can be connected by anti Semitism alone?

Hitler wasnt a big fan of religion himself, your argument just doesnt hold up
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All irrelevant. We are talking about Palestinians and if they have any claim to anything. Palestine ceased to exist in 1517. Their beef is with the Ottoman Empire which also doesn't exist anymore. Secondly there have been 2 world wars  giving them even less than 0 claim to anything. 
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@FourTrouble
> What do you view as the civilizational risks of national self-determination?

At some point I might forward you something I worked on while in grad school on this issue, if you're interested.  But most of my PhD work was focused on conflict in Eastern and Central Europe after the USSR's fall.  Central Asia and the Middle East, to a lesser degree. 

There's a phenomenon we've come to recognize as "Balkanization," which typically refers to a series of events leading to the fragmentation of a larger state into smaller ones, disputed territories and the like --- typically that fragment along ethnic/national lines.   

While the term's roots trace back to the Ottoman Empire's dissolution, the nastiest, most brutal and most deadly border/ethnic conflicts largely broke out around the world after the Cold War ended.  Essentially, there was fragmentation at two levels.  First, the world order had been redefined from a bipolar hegemonic order in which the United States and USSR were dueling superpowers (or so they were said to be); to a unipolar hegemonic order in which only one superpower remained, the United States.  Second, the geopolitical utility of maintaining alliances with great and even regional or lesser powers totally changed ... almost overnight.

So, what that meant was that powder-kegs of ethnic conflict like Yugoslavia, Bosnia, Albania, Azerbaijan and others remained relatively at peace due to overlapping alliances that kept them from fighting with one another.  For example, ethnic disputes within the USSR or between Warsaw pact members were dispersed with swift and exacting brutality. The idea was that the costs of doing anything that would threaten the integrity of the Eastern Bloc's alliance against the West was greater than any threat posed by the neighbors that people hated.   On the other hand, ethnic disputes within NATO-allied countries were sanctioned and their leaders usually dealt with by the intelligence agencies of one or more of the United States, England or France --- if not handled appropriately, internally.   And conflict between any particular Warsaw-pact-allied ethnic group with a rival affiliated with NATO would never dare throw the first stone, given the risks of escalation.  

All of that changed when the USSR fell.  The most horrifying violence seen in Europe since WWII swept across the slavic world, mostly along ethnic/national lines.  You can look into the breakup of Yugoslavia and particularly the Bosnian war for examples of this.  I was a kid when that was going on.  Though, our church hosted refugees from Bosnia inside and outside the United States.   Similar, and sometimes even worse, things took place in Africa a well; largely for the same reasons during the same time period.  And while it may sound racist, the patterns of ethnic conflict that characterized Africa before colonization and which now characterize much of sub-Saharan Africa now would be the mean to which the world would regress if national self-determination were the norm. 

And the risks should not be discounted, either.  There are at least 218 identifiable and discreet ethnic groups in Russia at this time, more than 100 in China (I don't know the exact number) and  about a dozen or so substantially represented in the United States.  Russia is the most ethnically diverse country on earth and for the most part has always been, if you were curious.  But the risks aren't limited to Russia.  If Palestine gets a state, for example ... why can't the Chechens?  On the other hand, if the Chechens CAN have a state, why not the Palestinians? 

Consider the implications, in view of the blood Putin spilt during the Chechen wars throughout the 1990s.   That's why, whatever Putin, Lavrov, Peskov or others may claim; Russia will never support Palestinian statehood.  Ever.  China would make the same argument about, at least, the Uighurs in Xinjiang.  Behind closed doors, Spain would make the same argument about Catalonia and the Basque.  The list goes on and on.  

I think most of the world's leaders recognize that, while Palestine might not be the domino that sets everything in motion, the risks that it might outweigh any benefit.  So they do what they can to maintain the status quo.  If all of Palestine's alleged supporters (none of them actually give a shit about Palestine) actually united their efforts against Israel, it would force the United States' hand.  They do not, because they know that Palestine is a problem that could one day be their own.  Meanwhile they condemn Israel and pass resolutions that mean nothing in the UN, while "Islamic scholars" decry Israel's purported "violations of international law," where the "international law" at issue isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  

People do not understand this, even though it's the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

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@coal
And who 'determined' Israel, the nation we have, into existence after world war two?
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@FourTrouble
> As a general matter, what justifies possession of land?

States are states because they (a) have borders they possess the ability to enforce with violence and (b) are recognized as having those borders by other states.  Whether this system is justified in any sense isn't something I am concerned with.  It's the way things are.  

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@RationalMadman
> And who 'determined' Israel, the nation we have, into existence after world war two?

What's your point?  I don't see why this matters.  If you want to argue about alleged historical injustices, the Muslims do not and will not exit that discussion morally unscathed.   

And that conversation is a futile one to have, anyway.  I could talk about how the Crusades should have gone the other way, how it's a complete injustice that the Holy Roman Empire ever fell to Muslims and how the only way to correct the historical error that was the Ottoman Empire's existence would be to raise Constantinople once more.  

That's the issue with even humoring those arguments.  
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@coal
If wars didn't have consequences, there could be no periods of peace....ever...
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The pro's and con's of this issue, of both sides, talk at cross purposes because each side assumes:
1. the other side is wrong.
2. occupation of a territory at any given time justifies their presence in that territory.
3. there must be some historic significance that still determines the course of actions and consequences today.
4. discrimination of differences rules all attitudes

If none of the above are satisfactory to both sides, the resolution will never be had. The paradigms must shift. In fact, they ought to be eradicated, completely.