Left Wing want all have a chance to succeed. Right Wing prefer it only for a select few.

Author: RationalMadman

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Athias
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@RationalMadman
You didn't tell me why I'm wrong.
The reason these programs fail is not because Republicans are constantly filibustering them. They don't work because they're not sustainable without surmounting a ridiculous amount of debt. The U.S. lists its debt as "28 trillion" but it's almost 10 times the amount when you consider it's obligations to programs like Medicare and Social Security alone.

The Left Wing programs don't go wrong when passed untik the Right Wing plot to sabotage it. That's a fact, not a theory. This is precisely what occurred with Medicaid that devolved into Obamacare.
What did the Right-Wing do to sabotage "Medicaid," a program which in itself was not subject to sabatoge?
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@Theweakeredge
Then pray tell - what is the obligation that the poor get from receiving benefits? Because the only thing that occurs to me is taxes. There is no obligation. 
Yes, by obligations I mean taxes.

Also... yes - taxes are a form of a social contract 
Prove it.

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@Athias
Your anarchy will solve it all.
Athias
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@RationalMadman
Your anarchy will solve it all.
Anarchist philosophy does not presume the capacity nor the intent to solve "all" problems. (That is merely a projection of yours, RationalMadman.) Anarchy being derivative of individualism presumes to focus on individual rights being the key component to social interaction as well as the resolution to disputes.

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@RatMan

Yep. Hieroglyph whispers certainly......What's it say....Dunno....Have a guess then.....Yeah that'll do.

And, left right, centre and solipsistic......I'm a meist and not ashamed to admit it.....Though, if I've got a bit of loose change, I will put it in a charity box if there's one handy.

And the RatMan blocks but does not ignore.....Sort of counterintuitive really.

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@Athias
Social Contract - "an agreement among the members of a society or between a society and its rulers about the rights and duties of each"
Perhaps you could attack it semantically, technically taxes themselves aren't a social contract, but paying taxes is indeed a social contract - the agreement implicitly signed whenever you pay taxes is that you have a duty to help pay for the government's expenses and that government will create infrastructure, work, income, etc.
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@Athias
Anarchy being derivative of individualism presumes to focus on individual rights being the key component to social interaction as well as the resolution to disputes.
And  who assigns those rights. Government. If not government, then it is chaotic mess of who ever comes to the meeting with largest guns { most explosives } to rule those they are in disagreement with.

Right wing wants to go back to the good ole days when men were men and women were women and and a exposed gun on hip, shoulder, legs arms is the best way forward for humanity to meet in the streets, the shopping malls, restaurants. park and day care center.

2232 is my my best prognostication of the end of humans on Earth, due to their actions or lack of action.



Athias
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@Theweakeredge
Social Contract - "an agreement among the members of a society or between a society and its rulers about the rights and duties of each"
Perhaps you could attack it semantically, technically taxes themselves aren't a social contract, but paying taxes is indeed a social contract - the agreement implicitly signed whenever you pay taxes is that you have a duty to help pay for the government's expenses and that government will create infrastructure, work, income, etc.
This is your proof? Technicalities which inform my point, and contradictions? Forgive my lapse of judgement, but I'm going to stick by my previous statement: this is a topic for another thread.
Athias
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@ebuc
And  who assigns those rights. Government.
Government isn't necessary to "assign" rights. Rights are moral concepts; only rational people are necessary.

If not government, then it is chaotic mess of who ever comes to the meeting with largest guns { most explosives } to rule those they are in disagreement with.
So your reservation about anarchy is that in the absence of the organization/entity with the largest (amount of) guns and explosives that rules those with whom they disagree, there will rise another organization/entity with the largest (amount of) guns and explosives who'll rule those with whom they disagree? Even if we were to entertain that this is a logical extension of anarchist philosophy, what would be your objection? It would be like my objecting to the prospect of kicking out a spouse who beats the crap out of me (but provides me financial comfort, ) because another person will come in and take advantage of my low self-esteem and do the same thing. The anarchist in this scenario would be the one taking charge of his or her life, and letting self-respect dictate how he or she interacts with others. If your apprehension toward the prospect of no government reflects some warped Hobbesian dystopia, then let me tell you, friend: there is no point to government. The very same people against whom you caution will wreak havoc are the very same people who run governments. Government neither induces nor protects morality.

Right wing wants to go back to the good ole days when men were men and women were women and and a exposed gun on hip, shoulder, legs arms is the best way forward for humanity to meet in the streets, the shopping malls, restaurants. park and day care center.
That's better than the Left-Wing agenda in my book.
RationalMadman
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@Athias
Anarchy is all cute and fun until the thugs who fought to free you end up ruling you with an iron fist.
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@Athias
Ebuc..."Right wing wants to go back to the good ole days when men were men and women were women and and a exposed gun on hip, shoulder, legs arms is the best way forward for humanity to meet in the streets, the shopping malls, restaurants. park and day care center"

Athias.....That's better than the Left-Wing agenda in my book
Ergo my prognostication  of approximate  end date of humanity in 2232, that,  follow 60's  70's, 80's  Mutual Assured Destruction, the the 90's, 2010's { rational years } and 2018-19 { irrational } mentality of global warming by humans is fake news, as is Co-V-2. Only now in 2020 do we see some Republicans making commericals begging people to get the CoV2 vaccine.

Athias.....Government isn't necessary to "assign" rights. Rights are moral concepts; only rational people are necessary.
Government is a set ---meeting--- of rational and irrational people deciding human "rights" as "moral concepts".

Government is a set ---meeting--- of rational and irrational people deciding who is rational and who is not.

In you anarchist and chaotic brute force meetings of supposedly ---"only rational people"--- we would have government ---irrespective of what you want to call it, that, will bring explosives, guns and ammo to decide who is rational, who is moral etc.
 
2232  or there about based on my set of formula/factors.








Athias
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@RationalMadman
Anarchy is all cute and fun until the thugs who fought to free you end up ruling you with an iron fist.
And the members of government to whom you proverbially bow your head aren't thugs? Or are they just not "fun" and "cute"? Is anything you say informed by a logical analysis of anarchist philosophy? Or are you intent on just letting me know how much you dislike anarchy? If your intent is to convince me of the irrationality of the philosophy, then do so with argumentation. If you just want to exhaust every misinformed one-liner, then find another target.
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@Athias
In autocracies like China and Iran, yeah they are brutal thugs indeed. In more democratic nations not so much but partially at times.
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@Athias
You are a devout anarchist, I'm not going to 'deconvert' you by one clever post. Your devotion to anarchy is akin to a Nun's devotion to Christ almighty and Lord God.
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@ebuc
Government is a set ---meeting--- of rational and irrational people deciding human "rights" as "moral concepts".

Government is a set ---meeting--- of rational and irrational people deciding who is rational and who is not.

In you anarchist and chaotic brute force meetings of supposedly ---"only rational people"--- we would have government ---irrespective of what you want to call it, that, will bring explosives, guns and ammo to decide who is rational, who is moral etc.
 
2232  or there about based on my set of formula/factors.
Once again, what would be your objection?

I do not presume anarchy to be the only regulator in human interaction.


Athias
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@RationalMadman
In autocracies like China and Iran, yeah they are brutal thugs indeed. In more democratic nations not so much but partially at times.
No, China and Iran are thugs, but democracy is the epitome of thuggery. You have gangs fighting other gangs for rule. What would you call majoritarian consensus subverting minority dissent?

You're a devout anarchist, I'm not going to 'deconvert' you by one clever post. Your devotion to anarchy is akin to a Nun's devotion to Christ almighty and Lord God.
I'm a "devout" individualist. Anarchism is the political extension of that. And you don't have to "deconvert" me in a single post. All you need to do is put forward a logically consistent argument, time notwithstanding. If it withstands my rigorous scrutiny--subject to the strict standards of logic of course--then I have no problem considering or perhaps "converting" to your position.
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@Athias


I object to anarchy ergo chaos and the new texas recommended law of open and carry.  Especially if open and carry has no limits as to;

...1] how much explosive power,

....2} locations of explosive power allowed,

....3} retsrictions decided government enforced agencies that decide who is sane enough to be carrying explosive power on there body, and vechicle etc.

M.A.D. came very close in latter 80's and enough humanity said 'enough is enough'.  We didnt go far enough then and since then society issues are pushing the limits of what is tolerable for a sane and sustainable future of human existence on Earth.

There is no gurranttees or warranties that states humanity gets to continue on Earth.  it is presumed, has been presumption by too many for too long that humans are so cool and exceptional that we have some kind of gurranttee/warranty to make it on Earth.

Explosives at the local levels across the globe is one way to take of care of over population of for current operational systems in place, however, that pathway is a lot more suffering that other options going forward.    
Athias
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@ebuc
I object to anarchy ergo chaos and the new texas recommended law of open and carry.  Especially if open and carry has no limits as to;
Your objection is shallow at best especially given the product of this alleged "chaos" is no different from the product of government.


fauxlaw
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Considering that in this entire string, the accusation of "racist" exists from only one member, and that on four occasions [pgs 2, 4, all addressed to yours truly - albeit not accusing me of being so], and that member happens to be the initiator of this topic, which topic has no direct relation to that term, one might wonder just which type of person would consider such as accusation to be appropriate, let alone accurate, consider to whom it was first accused in this topic by the initiator: President Lincoln [pg 2], post #47]. You remember him, an R [the first of that Party to be a President], and the author of the Emancipation Proclamation, and for whom it would be interesting to see someone cite an example of the accusation hurled at President Lincoln. Anyone?
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@fauxlaw
Educate yourself.


fauxlaw
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I offer the following in contention against RM's declaration in this string's post #2

Lincoln was a racist

In the seventh Lincoln-Douglas debate, conducted on Oct. 15, 1858, Justice Douglas said:

"Suppose the doctrine advocated by Mr. Lincoln and the abolitionists of this day had prevailed when the Constitution was made, what would have been the result? Imagine for a moment that Mr. Lincoln had been a member of the Convention that framed the Constitution of the United States, and that when its members were about to sign that wonderful document, he had arisen in that Convention as he did at Springfield this summer, and addressing himself to the President, had said, 'A house divided against itself cannot stand; (laughter) this government, divided into free and slave States, cannot endure, they must all be free or all be slave, they must all be one thing or all the other, otherwise, it is a violation of the law of God, and cannot continue to exist;' -suppose Mr. Lincoln had convinced that body of sages that that doctrine was sound, what would have been the result? Remember that the Union was then composed of thirteen States, twelve of which were slaveholding and one free."

RM's claim [he does not cite it for any academic support] may have derived from the commentary of an editorialist [and not an academically-trained historian] Lerone Bennett, writing  “Was Abe Lincoln a White Supremacist?”  in Ebony, 1968. This article by Bennett cites the Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858, of which there were seven. I've cited from the seventh above. This citation does not agree with Bennett, or RM. In fact, I've re-read the whole of the debates [accessible from the citation above], having read them. in high school, and college. No statement by Lincoln in any of the debates supports Bennett's claims, and a simple read of the total debates will confirm it. So, read them. Lerone Bennett is an opinionated, historically dead, and bitter editor, a product of his time, and a seeker of anything but truth, a fumbling member of a jaded media. Let the scholarship prevail, along with the transcript of the Lincoln-Douglas debates to find the true opposer of abolition. Lincoln was only opposed to letting the decision of slavery to remain at state level, where Douglas argued it should be decided. Not to mention that even Douglas erred in his facts, declaring later in the 7th debate that, at the time of the Constitutional Convention [1788], of the 13 colonies, 12 were slave colonies-become States by ratification of the Constitution. Go look for the statement, if you care, and then for the real count of slave/free colonies. Yes, the majority were slave colonies, but not 92% [12 of 13] of them. As it happens, it was just 62% [8 of 13]. Hint, if you want to identify all of the slave states at the time of ratification, do remember to count New York. Douglas, in my opinion, shared my description of Bennett.
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RM's source cited in his post #111 states the following, quoting the lady source: 

" Lincoln was opposed to the institution of slavery during his entire lifetime but, like most white Americans, he was not an abolitionist. "

This statement directly opposes the transcript of the Lincoln-Douglas Debate I cited above, #110, with regard to Lincoln's abolitionist status, which even Douglas acknowledge, let alone that Lincoln's stated opinion was that the decision regarding abolition of slavery belonged to Congress, and not to each State, and not to Lincoln, himself. I trust Lincoln's own words. I trust the words of his contemporaries, particularly one who was so closely acquainted with him, as was Douglas, rather than someone post-dating Lincoln by 148 years.
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@fauxlaw
I will repeat; Lincoln was a pragmatist. He played things to stabilise America and ensure he'd maintain power. He sided with the North out of convenience, not actual ideological allegiance with those who loathed racism.
I will like to explore to some quotes from the debate you refer to:
At the fourth Lincoln-Douglas debate, held in Charleston, South Carolina, the “Great Emancipator” began with the following [transcript courtesy of the National Park Service]:
“While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. … I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject,) that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, [laughter] but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, [roars of laughter] I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. [Continued laughter and applause.]”
- Abraham Lincoln

Dr.Franklin
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lie.
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@RM

You accuse a man who died 156 years ago. The conditions of his time are radically different from your time, so don't paint Lincoln with a 2021 brush of conditions. Remember, his childhood included the reality of slavery as a concurrent and legal condition. Yours does not. So, on attending socio-political thought, render a decision on Lincoln according to his clock, not yours. The very issues by which you paint Lincoln were prevalent conditions in his time. They are not in your time. Please correct your clock., and the time it is representing. The hands have changed between then and now. Please catch up, because in Lincoln's time, your holy Left Wing did not agree with you, either. Nor in my childhood when the 1964 Civil Rights Act was passed, with roughly one-third of Democrats, your Left Wing, in both Houses dissenting. Since then, yes, the Left has shifted, but it has not yet learned to stop hurling the racist card. Nor have you. 
Consider THAT in the face of your topic's "all"  claim.
RationalMadman
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You accuse a man who died 156 years ago. 
Yes, I do.
The conditions of his time are radically different from your time, so don't paint Lincoln with a 2021 brush of conditions.
I'm not, I'm quoting his own speech from a series of debates that you tried to use to depict me and my original linked article as liars and exaggerators.
RationalMadman
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Typically, when you're proven wrong by the own words of the person you're telling me I falsely accused, you apologise and say you were wrong.

What you are doing only further highlights that deceptive nature of your real agenda and way of debating about things, especially racism amongst the Right Wing.
RationalMadman
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Your claim was that Abraham Lincoln wasn't racist and that this claim in particular was outrageous for me to make, I first posted a single link for you to read, to which you replied that in the Lincoln-Douglas debates, Lincoln makes crystal clear that he is a defender of black rights.

I then used quotes from the fourth Lincoln-Douglas debate where he irrefutably admits being racist to shocking degrees in many different sentences and ways of expressing said belief.

You then try to divert and distract, making clear to everyone reading this which of us dodges things when we're wrong and which of us stands up and proves, let alone investigated and informed their self before making claims.
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@RationalMadman
Hi RM,

interesting perspective. I take the opposite position. 

Left wing culture is cancel culture. This implicitly means that they don't accept everyone. 

Left wing culture also lies about its tolerance. It only tolerates those who agree with it. It refuses to tolerate opposing views. 

Left wing culture is implicitly communistic - it is anti-competition. Therefore it is anti- anyone who disagrees with it.  Left wing culture is monopolistic. 

Right wing culture is about freedom. Everyone has the freedom to say and do what they want.  

Right wing culture believes in competition.  It does not agree with monopolies.  

Right wing culture is intrinsically open to ideas - but is transparent about its disagreements.  It does not seek to cancel the Left even though the Left is always canceling the Right. 


RationalMadman
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@Timid8967
Nice propaganda. If you want me to fight the points, first expand on how they relate to the debate's topic and then give specific examples.