Necessary evils

Author: secularmerlin

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#241
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@Tarik
Let's try an experiment. I'll give my definition and you give yours. Then we will evaluate them to see which is observable in reality and which is ONLY HYPOTHETICAL.

Morality = systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society.

Ok now it is your turn.

#242
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@secularmerlin
ONLY HYPOTHETICAL.
That’s a false dichotomy, you left out impossible and that’s key here so let’s just cut to the chase shall we, your definition is impossible for the simple fact that it’s self refuting and self refuting notions cancels out period.

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#243
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
Are you seriously suggesting that systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society do not exist? Systems like the united states legal system? 


#244
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@secularmerlin
No, I’m saying that labeling those systems the same thing even if they’re polar opposites is confusing and one you look up definitions in the dictionary it’s for clarity not confusion.
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#245
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.
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#246
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@Tarik
No I’m saying that labeling those systems the same thing even if they’re polar opposites is confusing and one you look up definitions in the dictionary it’s for clarity not confusion.
Please give an example of two such systems that are "polar opposites".
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#247
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@Tarik
one you look up definitions in the dictionary it’s for clarity not confusion.
Nonsense. Utter tosh. Not that clarity should not be the goal but that you are using definitions to provide clarity rather than to muddy the waters.
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@secularmerlin
Please give an example of two such systems that are "polar opposites".

Under your view one system that embraces love and another that embraces hate is the same system (in terms of what your labeling it as), despite the fact that those two things conflict with one another, makes no logical sense at all.

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#249
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@Tarik
Under your view one system that embraces love and another that embraces hate
Which two systems SPECIFICALLY are you referring to here?
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#250
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.

#251
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@secularmerlin
Which two systems SPECIFICALLY are you referring to here?
I just said love and hate, what’s vague about those two terms?

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@Tarik
Nothing is vague about those terms. I'm just not sure which moral systems you are referencing. 
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.

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@secularmerlin
Don’t look too much into it dude they were just examples but under your definition both those examples would suffice as subjectively moral despite the fact that they’re both diametrically opposed to one another, that’s my case as to why subjective morality makes no sense.

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#255
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@Tarik
Love and hate are emotions not systems. 
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#256
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.

#257
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@secularmerlin
A system can stem from those two emotions though.

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#258
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In accepting that you can label love and hate the same thing (emotions) without confusion (as you have defacto done by referring to them thusly in your last post) you have rather undercut that labeling systems concerning them the same thing even if they’re polar opposites is confusing. 

Now please give a specific example of a moral system that stems from love and another which stems from hate.

I am uncertain any definitively and necessarily stem from love and relatively none stems from hate even if the system itself could be said to encourage hate (as arguably some moral systems which are in my opinion flawed can).

As an example Nazism does NOT stem from hate. It stems from ethno-nationalism. Hate is merely the natural result of ethno-nationalism.
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@Tarik
Also don't think I didn't notice that you did not offer any definition of morality. 

Since my definition comes from Google and you accept that source for definitions you would seem to have a real problem here.


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@Tarik
Actually nazism is not a good example as it is a political ideology and not an actual moral system but hopefully it gets my point across anyway. 
#261
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@secularmerlin
How many times I have to tell you it was just an example, think of it as a hypothetical scenario. 

you can label love and hate the same thing (emotions) without confusion
That’s because emotions is a broad spectrum, I can take a specific subject such as love, if one calls it subjectively good and another calls it subjectively bad under your definition both would be correct despite both those words having opposite meanings, that’s an issue you fail to understand.
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#262
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@Tarik
Morality = particular systems of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.

If this is an issue for you then you need to do two things. 

Firstly supply a word which means particular systems of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.

Secondly supply an alternative definition of morality. 

You MUST do BOTH things to resolve this issue. 


#263
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@Tarik
It is self explanatory.

Use the dictionary that you are so fond of and apply subjective to morality.

The same principle would apply to objective morality.

But as I've often stated....The difficulty arises when one attempts to differentiate between subjective and objective in respect of process.

Irrespective of what a dictionary might say, we nonetheless run all data through our processing units before we issue a response.

All data output therefore  has a level of subjectivity to it.

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@secularmerlin
Firstly supply a word which means particular systems of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.
There’s already a word that describes that, it’s called self refuting.
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@zedvictor4
It is self explanatory.
You constantly saying that over and over again doesn’t make it any more true.

Use the dictionary that you are so fond of and apply subjective to morality.
Impossible because morality is objective.

The same principle would apply to objective morality.
It shouldn’t, since the two are completely different.

But as I've often stated....The difficulty arises when one attempts to differentiate between subjective and objective in respect of process.
That’s because the two are different in respect of process (if there even is a process to subjective morality), maybe you should read the dictionary.

All data output therefore has a level of subjectivity to it.
Your talking on both sides of your mouth here, because one minute you say there’s no difference between objectivity and subjectivity, the next you clearly differentiate the two by deeming data output as subjective. Nevertheless a response can’t be subjective if it’s proven factual.

#266
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@secularmerlin
Let's say there's a kid, and their mother gives him 2 pieces of candy, while telling him to give 1 of the pieces of candy to their other sibling in another room.
The first child eats both pieces of candy.
The stealing his siblings candy was an evil necessary to satisfy his sweet tooth and greed.

Or let's say there's a child at their blind parents death bed, and the parent asks if their other child who happens to be mute is there as well.
The child who is there 'lies and says yes they are.
Parent dies happy.
The lie was an evil necessary to satisfy the childs desire to make his parent's death happier by thinking their other mute child was there as well.
#267
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@Tarik
Nope.

I would suggest that you are being deliberately intransigent in respect of a cause.

The dictionary defines words separately....So subjective + morality will be as defined irrespective of your point of view....Same goes for objective + morality.

You must understand that not everyone agrees with your personally subjective principles.


Nonetheless...In either respect, morality is always internally processed data, rather than a universal constant.
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#268
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@zedvictor4
Irrespective of what a dictionary might say, we nonetheless run all data through our processing units before we issue a response.

All data output therefore  has a level of subjectivity to it.

Well stated. True objectivety may be beyond human ability. 
#269
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@secularmerlin
Agree.
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#270
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@Tarik
There’s already a word that describes that, it’s called self refuting.
"A self refuting is a system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society." 

 so I am afraid I must reject your term because that sentence reads like nonsense. 

Also that is only half the task I gave you so let me repeat both steps clearly.

Firstly supply a word which means particular systems of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.

Secondly supply an alternative definition of morality.