Necessary evils

Author: secularmerlin

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@zedvictor4
Nonetheless...In either respect, morality is always internally processed data, rather than a universal constant.
Well stated. Some objective standard would not make US objective. 
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@Lemming
The first child eats both pieces of candy.
The stealing his siblings candy was an evil necessary to satisfy his sweet tooth and greed.
I'm not sure this is necessarily necessary. 
Or let's say there's a child at their blind parents death bed, and the parent asks if their other child who happens to be mute is there as well.
The child who is there 'lies and says yes they are.
Parent dies happy.
The lie was an evil necessary to satisfy the childs desire to make his parent's death happier by thinking their other mute child was there as well.
I'm not sure this is necessarily evil.
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@Lemming
Let's say there's a kid, and their mother gives him 2 pieces of candy, while telling him to give 1 of the pieces of candy to their other sibling in another room.
The first child eats both pieces of candy.
The stealing his siblings candy was an evil necessary to satisfy his sweet tooth and greed.

Or let's say there's a child at their blind parents death bed, and the parent asks if their other child who happens to be mute is there as well.
The child who is there 'lies and says yes they are.
Parent dies happy.
The lie was an evil necessary to satisfy the childs desire to make his parent's death happier by thinking their other mute child was there as well.
Are you suggesting that every action and every thought is technically "necessary"?
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@Athias
What if your grandparents made a contract with a bunch of people to give them a bunch of land they could presumably hunt and farm on (so they could stay alive) and then changed the deal and gave them much less land than they had promised and also polluted the water supply and killed off the animals.

You didn't do any of this.

But you know, hypothetically, what if your grandparents did this.

Does the passage of time magically make "wrong" things "normal"?
How could they have changed the deal if they made a contract, at least unknowingly to the other party? The stipulations should have been made known to each party involved before the deal was final. That is, if the other party did not want less land and a polluted water supply, then they could've opted out. 
Once you give up your WEAPONS, you are at the MERCY of the side with an ARMY.

THE QUESTION IS, "WHAT RESPONSIBILITY DO GRANDCHILDREN HAVE FOR THE CRIMES (think "deathcamps" & "slaughter") OF THEIR GRANDPARENTS?"

(A) 0%
(B) 5%
(C) 6%
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@zedvictor4
I would suggest that you are being deliberately intransigent in respect of a cause.
That’s how I stay true to my views.

The dictionary defines words separately....So subjective + morality will be as defined irrespective of your point of view....Same goes for objective + morality.
True, but claiming the former word is in relation to morality is a claim you’ve yet to prove.

You must understand that not everyone agrees with your personally subjective principles.
I don’t have personally subjective principles.

Nonetheless...In either respect, morality is always internally processed data, rather than a universal constant.
Prove it.
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@secularmerlin
so I am afraid I must reject your term because that sentence reads like nonsense. 
I have no qualms with that definition in regards to morality, it’s just vague in the subjective department, which is what I was alluding to when I said it’s self refuting.
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@Tarik
I would suggest that you are being deliberately intransigent in respect of a cause.
That’s how I stay true to my views.
Then you are not actually interested in honest discussion. If you intend to reject any argument that contradicts your current view regardless of its soundness then this is a pointless exercise. 

For you as much as for us.

May I suggest you get a new hobby? One you are actually willing and able to participate in perhaps?

I hear you can play checkers without anyone bringing up any faults in the logical structure of your beliefs that might lead you to being confused and uncomfortable. 
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@Tarik
I would suggest that you are being deliberately intransigent in respect of a cause.
That’s how I stay true to my views.
This makes discussion of definitions pointless. 
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@secularmerlin
regardless of its soundness
No, not regardless of its soundness. If a sound argument refutes mine then I would accept it at face value but so far that hasn’t happened.
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@Tarik
No, not regardless of its soundness if I a sound argument refutes mine then I would accept it at face value but so far that hasn’t happened.
This statement is directly contradicted by this sentiment. 
I would suggest that you are being deliberately intransigent in respect of a cause.
That’s how I stay true to my views.
This makes offering sound logical arguments a  pointless exercise. 

For you as much as for us.

May I suggest you get a new hobby? One you are actually willing and able to participate in perhaps?

I hear you can play checkers without anyone bringing up any faults in the logical structure of your beliefs that might lead you to being confused and uncomfortable. 

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@secularmerlin
This statement is directly contradicted by this sentiment. 

No it’s not, let’s say your dealing with a lunatic whose goal is to kill 100 people are you willing to be transigent in regards to your views and say he meet you halfway with 50? I sure hope not, same thing applies here, I refuse to negotiate with a bunch of looneys, miss me with that.

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@Tarik
which is what I was alluding to when I said it’s self refuting.
Can you perhaps offer some suggestion that would make it "less wrong"?
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@Tarik
No it’s not, let’s say your dealing with a lunatic whose goal is to kill 100 people are you willing to be transigent in regards to your views and say he meet you halfway with 50?
Appeal to consequences fallacy 
I sure hope not, same thing applies here, I refuse to negotiate with a bunch of looneys, miss me with that.
Groundless ad hominem attack. 

I would suggest you familiarsize yourself with the more common logical fallacies in order to avoid them but since 
I would suggest that you are being deliberately intransigent in respect of a cause.
That’s how I stay true to my views.
It would be a pointless exercise. 

For you as much as for us.

May I suggest you get a new hobby? One you are actually willing and able to participate in perhaps?

I hear you can play checkers without anyone bringing up any faults in the logical structure of your beliefs that might lead you to being confused and uncomfortable. 

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@Tarik
No it’s not, let’s say your dealing with a lunatic whose goal is to kill 100 people are you willing to be transigent in regards to your views and say he meet you halfway with 50?
MIDDLE GROUND ≠ COMMON GROUND
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@3RU7AL
MIDDLE GROUND ≠ COMMON GROUND
I 100% concur.
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@secularmerlin
Appeal to consequences fallacy 
Nice try but no, it’s just a simple question dumbass.

Groundless ad hominem attack.
Again nice try but no, the “personal” attack is predicated on your looney arguments, miss me with that.

I would suggest you familiarsize yourself with the more common logical fallacies in order to avoid them
I suggest you take your own advice instead of pretending you know things when you don’t have the slightest clue.

It would be a pointless exercise. 

For you as much as for us.
If you truly believed this you wouldn’t continue to engage in this banter.

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@3RU7AL
MIDDLE GROUND ≠ COMMON GROUND
Do you have a quote of me saying otherwise?
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@Tarik
meet you halfway with 50

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@3RU7AL
Yes, but I didn’t say that’s the same as common ground.

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@Tarik
If you truly believed this you wouldn’t continue to engage in this banter.
The first trial,

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@Tarik
Yes, but I didn’t say that’s the same as common ground.
Middle ground is a dangerous logical fallacy.

Common ground is an inescapable necessity.
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@3RU7AL
Why are you arguing as if I’m equating the two to one another, I’m not. Although you could make an exception if both parties agree to the middle ground.
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@Tarik
Why are you arguing as if I’m equating the two to one another, I’m not. Although you could make an exception if both parties agree to the middle ground.
(IFF) you agree with me (THEN) we are not in disagreement
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@3RU7AL
Once you give up your WEAPONS, you are at the MERCY of the side with an ARMY.
And if they don't have an army?

THE QUESTION IS, "WHAT RESPONSIBILITY DO GRANDCHILDREN HAVE FOR THE CRIMES (think "deathcamps" & "slaughter") OF THEIR GRANDPARENTS?"

(A) 0%
(B) 5%
(C) 6%
A.


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@3RU7AL
(IFF) I agree that Green or Red are a nicer colour than the other, with you
(THEN) we still can disagree which one is the superior one.

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@3RU7AL
(IFF) you agree with me (THEN) we are not in disagreement
Yes but it’s still fair of me to question why your saying the things your saying.
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@Athias
THE QUESTION IS, "WHAT RESPONSIBILITY DO GRANDCHILDREN HAVE FOR THE CRIMES (think "deathcamps" & "slaughter") OF THEIR GRANDPARENTS?"

(A) 0%
(B) 5%
(C) 6%
A.
There it is.
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@Tarik
If you truly believed this you wouldn’t continue to engage in this banter.
I might if I thought there were a slim possibility that you might actually engage or if I were just winding you up. 

Which do you imagine is the case I wonder?
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@secularmerlin
You tell me.
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@secularmerlin
@3RU7AL
I'm not sure this is necessarily necessary. 
What would you say makes an action 'necessary?

I'm not sure this is necessarily evil.
Some people often feel bad about lying, even white lies. Immanuel Kant's philosophy holds arguments against lying, I 'think.
Some people value authenticity, such as Jean Paul Sartre, though I 'think his authenticity was more about being true to oneself.

Are you suggesting that every action and every thought is technically "necessary"?
Well, for something to have occurred 'exactly in a certain manner, yes.
But per the necessary evil argument, no.
Since ends can be reached by 'different means at times.

The argument I've been expecting to see, but have either missed or been mistaken in my prediction,
Is that there is no necessary evil, if the end was necessary and there was no kinder way to go about it.

Ends are only necessary to our, subjective persons though, I'm thinking.
By what we value, or 'see as necessary.

Some people might not see the candy theft as necessary to a human, able to rise above their greed.
Some people might not see the death bed lie as necessary, as a person is able to tell the truth and 'still give comfort to family.