Necessary evils

Author: secularmerlin

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@Tarik
Well the world is a confusing and contradictory place and under no obligation to make sense to us. That said the reason various moral systems disagree about some points (I think saying diametrically opposed is going a little far personally) is because it us subjective. 

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@secularmerlin
Well the world is a confusing and contradictory place and under no obligation to make sense to us.
There you go being dramatic and flying over the handle, nobody said anything about “the world” but the meaning of morality is plain old semantics and at the very least should make sense to everyone.

That said the reason various moral systems disagree about some points (I think saying diametrically opposed is going a little far personally) is because it us subjective. 
Here’s an idea, or maybe it’s because some are objectively right and others are objectively wrong.

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@Tarik
Is the meaning unclear? I though what confused you was that various moral codes disagree.

By the way that is both exactly what we would expect to see if morality is subjective and exactly what we do in fact see.

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@secularmerlin
By the way that is both exactly what we would expect to see if morality is subjective and exactly what we do in fact see.
What was this in response to?
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@Tarik
Here’s an idea, or maybe it’s because some are objectively right and others are objectively wrong.
Unless we as humans have some way of distinguishing between the two this is not actually helpful to us and again objective morality is definitionally impossible unless you have sone alternative definition to offer.
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secularmerlin
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@Tarik
There you go being dramatic and flying over the handle, nobody said anything about “the world” but the meaning of morality is plain old semantics and at the very least should make sense to everyone.
Is the meaning unclear? I though what confused you was that various moral codes disagree.

By the way that is both exactly what we would expect to see if morality is subjective and exactly what we do in fact see.

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@secularmerlin
By the way that is both exactly what we would expect to see if morality is subjective and exactly what we do in fact see.
Speak for yourself, I see subjective morality as self refuting considering the many different diametrically opposed faces it has.
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@Tarik
Speak for yourself, I see subjective morality as self refuting considering the many different diametrically opposed faces it has.
Please explain what you mean by diametrically opposed. As far as I can tell they just disagree.
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@secularmerlin
Unless we as humans have some way of distinguishing between the two this is not actually helpful to us
Aren’t you the same guy that said

Well the world is a confusing and contradictory place and under no obligation to make sense to us.
🤔 
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#220
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
Unless we as humans have some way of distinguishing between the two this is not actually helpful to us
Aren’t you the same guy that said

Well the world is a confusing and contradictory place and under no obligation to make sense to us.
Yes. What is your point?
Here’s an idea, or maybe it’s because some are objectively right and others are objectively wrong.
Unless you can demonstrate what is "objectively right" (and don't forget that right and wrong are essentially subjective terms) then we must still use our own personal opinions to decide what is moral. An objective moral standard (in addition to being definitionally impossible) DOES NOT resolve the problem (if it is a problem) of human inability to use an objective moral standard. 
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@secularmerlin
My point is your literally talking on both sides of your mouth right now and your not making any sense, one minute you argue that it’s not the worlds job to make sense the next you want to complain about things not being helpful to you, if you want to argue that the world doesn’t make sense that’s one thing but when YOU start to imitate that that’s another, keep the same energy please.
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secularmerlin
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@Tarik
Comprehensible and useful are separate issues. 

In any case if you find subjective morality confusing BECAUSE it is largely a matter of opinion then some UNKNOWN objective standard does NOTHING to resolve the issue. You have suggested a solution that doesn't solve anything. 
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@Tarik
IF you cannot present the objective standard you keep claiming THEN it is FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE from no objective standard whatever.
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@secularmerlin
Comprehensible and useful are separate issues. 
In this case objective morality being comprehensible is useful because that’s where the goal of being objective moral starts.
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@Tarik
In this case objective morality being comprehensible is useful because that’s where the goal of being objective moral starts.
It isn't comprehensible. It is definitionally impossible. 

Also GOALS ARE SUBJECTIVE. 


Also also a standard you can't share with me is not at all useful.
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@Tarik
IF you cannot present the objective standard you keep claiming THEN it is FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE from no objective standard whatever and having no standard is not more useful than having some standard even if it is an arbitrary one.
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@secularmerlin
It isn't comprehensible. It is definitionally impossible. 
How so? I would argue that applies to self refuting, I mean subjective morality 😬.
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@Tarik
It isn't comprehensible. It is definitionally impossible. 
How so?
The same way it has been the whole time. Unless you have an alternative definition of objective or you can suggest some method other than using our personal opinions to determine what is moral it will remain so.
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@Tarik
IF you cannot present the objective standard you keep claiming THEN it is FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE from no objective standard whatever and having no standard is not more useful than having some standard even if it is an arbitrary one.
#230
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Tarik, I have literally never seen you interact with a member where you don't end up angry at them and making them angry at you.


Well unlike you at least I don’t have being banned from DART on my track record.


This is 'case in point' at its finest.

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@secularmerlin
The same way it has been the whole time.
Same argument applies to subjective morality.
#232
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This is 'case in point' at its finest.
Your point seems to be a slightly hypocritical one considering all the people that dislike you on this site but to each his own.
#233
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@secularmerlin
war is a necessary evil.

it's bloody, destroys  infrastructure, and costs people limbs and livelihoods. But sometimes it is necessary for freedom.

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@Tarik
Same argument applies to subjective morality.
How exactly does the same argument apply to systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society?
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@secularmerlin
The same way it has been the whole time.

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@The_Meliorist
war is a necessary evil.

it's bloody, destroys  infrastructure, and costs people limbs and livelihoods. But sometimes it is necessary for freedom.
Well you have certainly followed instructions. 
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@Tarik
How exactly are systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society definitionally impossible?
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@secularmerlin
The same way it has been the whole time.

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@Tarik
Hey remember when I said objective morality was definitionally impossible and you asked how and I explained that humans have NO WAY to evaluate morality except by our opinions? And you know how that is subjective by definition?

In what SPECIFIC way are systems of values and principles of conduct, especially ones held by a specified person or society definitionally impossible?

You know like how objective morality is SPECIFICALLY definitionally impossible because we must rely on our opinions?
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@secularmerlin
humans have NO WAY to evaluate morality except by our opinions
This doesn’t answer the question, the question is in regards to objective morality and your answering in regards to subjective morality no wonder it isn’t clicking for you.