Necessary evils

Author: secularmerlin

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@Tarik
Even with living organisms what reason is there to believe there is any morality?
Please be very clear what you are asking. Are you asking what reason there is to believe that people act according a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society?

Or something else?
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@secularmerlin
I’m asking, why does the principle of conduct exist in the first place?
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@Tarik
Even with living organisms what reason is there to believe there is any morality (as zedvictor4 defined considering you piggybacked off our discussion)?
Did he define it differently than myself? Not surprising considering the subjective nature of the subject matter. 
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@secularmerlin
Did you not read my previous post?
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@Tarik
I’m asking, why does the principle of conduct exist in the first place?
There does not appear to be any cause beyond the sheer forces of evolutionary biology at work on a social species with specialized intelligence and nuanced conceptual communication. NO REASON. Also not random. CAUSAL.
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@secularmerlin
So there’s no reason to have a principle of conduct, ergo principles of conduct make no sense, doesn’t this all sound familiar, I don’t know how many times we gotta take laps around this circle but maybe the umpteenth time is the charm.
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@Tarik
We have cause to. That is why we as humans have subjective reasons for it but there is no larger capital r Reason.

Biology + environmental factors = behavior.

It's not like there is a step missing or anything this is a pretty simple equation. Please which of the three concepts involved is hard to understand?
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@secularmerlin
Nothing but nihilism falls under behavior does it not?
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@Tarik
Nihilism isn't a behavior it is a philosophical model which gives no actionable data. But yes those too are a product of biology + environmental factors.

Biology + environmental factors = beliefs.

Biology + environmental factors = opinions.

Biology + environmental factors = ideas.

Biology + environmental factors = principles. 

Nothing else is needed. Biology + environmental factors = reason (as in cause not capital r Reason) enough.
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@secularmerlin
Biology is a generic term which can mean anything outside the context of this discussion, so unless you have anything specific to add for the sake of discussion it’s dismissed. As for environmental factors what environmental factors influenced your principle of conduct?
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@Tarik
I mean the physical processes of life when I say biology. 

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What is the physical processes of life?
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The physical processes of life + the circumstances in which life finds itself = all the stuff life does, is and thinks.

That's kind of cumbersome why don't we shorten it to biology + environmental factors = behavior.
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@secularmerlin
I’m asking you, what is it?
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@Tarik
What is the physical processes of life?
Anything to stave off uncomfortable understanding. 

It is all the things an alive thing does. Metobolizing energy and chemical processes mostly. It's the things we do and a tree does and a flatworm does but that a rock doesn't. 

Man you really don't want to have this conversation do you? Obdurate. Intractable. Obtuse. Adversarial. Obstructive. 

If the mere possibility that someone could come to the conclusions I have is so confusing and uncomfortable to you that you are arguing with yourself that you don't have to listen to me rather than arguing with me at all ... what are you doing here?

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@secularmerlin
It is all the things an alive thing does.
I think that sums up behavior just fine, don’t know why you added environmental factors into the equation, the equation seems complete without it.

As for environmental factors what environmental factors influenced your principle of conduct?
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@Tarik
I think that sums up behavior just fine, 
No it does not. Behavior is only part of the things an alive thing does. Your heartbeat is not a behavior though it is a biological process. In fact arguably plants do not have behaviors at all but they inarguably have biological processes. 

You specifically as a human being behave as your biology and environment have shaped you to behave. You cannot help but to be what you are. What life has made of you through perfectly natural undirected deterministic forces. Inevitably becoming yourself.

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@Tarik
If the mere possibility that someone could come to the conclusions I have is so confusing and uncomfortable to you that you are arguing with yourself that you don't have to listen to me rather than arguing with me at all ... what are you doing here?

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@secularmerlin
So what environment does one need to come to the conclusion of nihilism?
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@Tarik
So what environment does one need to come to the conclusion of nihilism?
I don't know. I don't know any nihilists to ask.
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@Tarik
If the mere possibility that someone could come to the conclusions I have is so confusing and uncomfortable to you that you are arguing with yourself that you don't have to listen to me rather than arguing with me at all ... what are you doing here?
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@secularmerlin
Then how can you be so sure that their environment shaped them?
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@Tarik
If the mere possibility that someone could come to the conclusions I have is so confusing and uncomfortable to you that you are arguing with yourself that you don't have to listen to me rather than arguing with me at all ... what are you doing here?
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@secularmerlin
Now your just lying, first of all I’m not arguing with anybody I’m simply asking a question, Google is free if you don’t know the difference. Second even if I were arguing (which I’m not) it damn sure ain’t with myself considering everything I’m saying is predicated on what you said. Come correct next time before you keep stressing the same meaningless stuff repeatedly.
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@Tarik
Ok buddy. If you say so. I still think you are making excuses not to have this discussion because some part of you is afraid I may have some reasonable points. 

If you don't ever accept a definition then you don't have to have the conversation but that isn't the same as actually engaging in a debate. Just think it over.
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@secularmerlin
I asked a question that has nothing to do with acceptance or decline, the fact that you feel the need to change the narrative where it suits you tells me that the questions I’m asking are reasonable and you can’t take the heat of honestly admitting so. But hey to each his own.
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@Tarik
I asked a question that has nothing to do with acceptance or decline, the fact that you feel the need to change the narrative where it suits you tells me that the questions I’m asking are reasonable and you can’t take the heat of honestly admitting so. But hey to each his own.
Can I ask you a question? Are you genuinely interested in my thoughts or beliefs?
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@secularmerlin
Yes, if the questions I’m asking in regards to them isn’t any indication of that then tell me what is?
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Can I ask you a question? Are you genuinely interested in my thoughts or beliefs?
Yes
Then at some point you are going to have to work with me to communicate. I can't force you to even if I want to. You will have to accept at least enough of my definitions to communicate my ideas at all. It doesn't really matter if you agree with my definitions or think they are "correct" it ONLY matters if you understand the underlying concepts. If you genuinely can't understand the very elementary explanations of some of the terms I use I have given you then you probably aren't capable of having this conversation. 

I don't really think that is the issue however. I think you are afraid of what I represent to you.

A world without cosmic balance. A place were the innocent are punished along with the guilty and the evil are rewarded sometimes much more richly than the good. I think you are worried that even understanding my perspective might be somehow harmful to you. I'd like to reassure you that my philosophy has not hurt me in the slightest. 
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@secularmerlin
Then at some point you are going to have to work with me to communicate.
Yeah, like asking questions based off what you say? Newsflash I’ve done that already, I’m still waiting on you to answer the call.