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@secularmerlin
twisting and turning
What did I twist and turn, specifically?
AFSFSM
Posts
Total:
323
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@secularmerlin
Who keeps setting up trolley tracks in this fashion? Surely whatever happens the trolley owner is liable for all damages not I and not Jim.
PROXIMITY ≠ CULPABILITY
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@secularmerlin
That is your argument? That if anyone benefits in any way then no matter how callous and uncaring an act is it is not selfish?So if I commit an armed robbery and take what doesn't belong to me for my own enrichment then so long as my fence also benefits (through the sale of my illicit goods) then I haven't done anything selfish?If that isn't what you are saying then exactly what are you saying?
Great point.
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@Tarik
Your syllogism is flawed period.
Please be slightly more specific.
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@Tarik
...Hold the damn phone, are you suggesting that providing for someone else isn’t for someone else?
YES.
Every human action sprouts from SURVIVAL INSTINCT.
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@secularmerlin
Bottom line EVEN IF you are only in this for yourself you should still consider caring for and about others BECAUSE it is essentially self care.
Well stated.
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@Sum1hugme
I think one major problem is that this ethic can't apply to people who don't care about being alive. If someone doesn't care about being alive, does that permit them to use people as instruments?
Does this hypothetical person who doesn't care about being alive also eat food?
Why does this hypothetical person who doesn't care about being alive breathe air?
How could a hypothetical person who doesn't eat food and doesn't breathe air "use people as instruments"?
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@Tarik
P1 you cannot survive without others to care for and about you.Prove it.
Imagine an individual human in isolation.
A hermit, perhaps living alone in the forest.
Imagine perhaps something like the movie, "Castaway" but without the "rescue" at the end.
It may be possible for an individual human to survive for some amount of time in isolation.
That isolated individual will project their need for human interaction onto inanimate objects and or animals and or their own imagination.
And if this individual becomes ill or suffers an accident that renders them immobile, they will die.
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@Tarik
Ever heard of something called hatred? Well you can have that for someone you’ve made SOCIAL CONTACT with, are you seriously going to equate caring to hatred?
Caring can be (EITHER) "positive" (OR) "negative"
Do you care if someone is happy because you think they should be happy (OR) do you care if someone is happy because you think they should be unhappy?
I remember a story about a man who loved his mother and hated his father.
When his mother died he was saddened but not distraught.
When his father died he was inconsolable.
The "opposite" of "love" is not "hate".
The "opposite" of "love" is "apathy".
The "opposite" of "hate" is "apathy".
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@secularmerlin
It is true that if you dogmatically reject any definition provided and you refuse to offer any that I agree with then neither of us could prove anything whatever. This is a breakdown in communication however which is quite different to conceding my point.
Well stated.
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@secularmerlin
People need social interaction (both "positive" and or "negative") in order to maintain mental health and by necessity are providing for the need for social interactions (both "positive" and or "negative") of others.
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@3RU7AL
Just because someone doesn't value being alive; that doesn't mean they aren't going to engage in basic biological necessities. Many don't commit suicide for a myriad of reasons (pain of death, personal "weakness", etc.). But not commiting suicide does not necessarily mean that one values ones own life.
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@Sum1hugme
But not commiting suicide does not necessarily mean that one values ones own life.
Eating and breathing is indisputable empirical evidence that someone values their own life.
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@secularmerlin
Just that, it doesn’t tell us that every living breathing human is caring for other living breathing humans.No two humans are alike. You show me some human belief or voluntary behavior and I'll show you a belief or voluntary behavior that not every living breathing human shares.The point isn't that we all do the point is that it is counterproductive not too.
(IFF) you are alive and capable and motivated to participate in a discussion of "morality" (THEN) you want to be alive and have taken action in order to maintain your life (AND) you have convinced at least one other person (either truthfully or falsely) that you are motivated to help them maintain their wellbeing.
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@ebuc
Excellent Secular M!Basically this is what your saying....'one-for-one', one-for-all and all-for-one.This is the only way humanity will have existence on Earth beyond 2232, as based on my 5-factor formula prognostication for humanities end-times-on-Earth.
Yep.
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@3RU7AL
You're joking right? Its pretty normal for suicidal people to consider themselves too weak to commit suicide, and thus, continue on living. Starving to death is painful, and one can be both afraid to die and not value their own life.
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@secularmerlin
If the question is "why be moral if the universe doesn't care?" then the answer is the A.F.S.F.S.M.
Well stated.
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@Sum1hugme
You're joking right? Its pretty normal for suicidal people to consider themselves too weak to commit suicide, and thus, continue on living. Starving to death is painful, and one can be both afraid to die and not value their own life.
Valuing your personal comfort (avoiding pain) is functionally indistinguishable from valuing your own life.
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@secularmerlin
A.F.S.F.S.M. doesn’t tell them anything that they don’t already know.Great. Glad we agree.
Nice.
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@3RU7AL
What about suicidal people that cut themselves because in all their despair, they don't care about their life or their well being, they just consider themselves too weak to commit suicide. Do you consider those people to value their personal comfort and their lives? And is that action functionally indistinguishable from them valuing their own life?
People don't eat and breathe in a vacuum, where that's all that they think and do. And plenty of suicidal people don't value avoiding pain.
People don't eat and breathe in a vacuum, where that's all that they think and do. And plenty of suicidal people don't value avoiding pain.
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@Sum1hugme
And plenty of suicidal people don't value avoiding pain.
Then why are they still alive?
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@Lemming
If they wanted to maximize their time and interests while alive, they'd stay in physical and mental health by exercise of both the mind and body, but often do not.People 'would care to continue doing things, but also would care not to bother thinking and working at self care to greater or lesser extents.Sure, it's logical to care for others. Though sometimes that care is that a man feels towards his chicken or cow, care until one slaughters and eats it.
Wise words.
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@3RU7AL
Because they feel too "cowardly" or "weak" to kill themselves. Do they cut themselves to avoid pain?
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@Sum1hugme
Because they feel too "cowardly" or "weak" to kill themselves. Do they cut themselves to avoid pain?
Some small measure of "pain" can help cut through the "nothingness".
It's a mistake to think that just because someone might like extra-spicy food (pain) that does not mean they like all types of pain.
I don't believe anyone who truly does not value their own life would be "too cowardly" to stop eating food.
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@3RU7AL
@Sum1hugme
Valuing your personal comfort (avoiding pain) is functionally indistinguishable from valuing your own life.
Well stated.
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@Tarik
twisting and turningWhat did I twist and turn, specifically?
At a minimum every time you agreed to a definition and then declared that something which fits that definition cannot be referred to by the term in question.
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@3RU7AL
Every human action sprouts from SURVIVAL INSTINCT.
That’s simply not true, take the action of donating to charity for example that has no bearing on your survival (if anything it makes you less likely to survive, especially if you donate your whole livelihood away).
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@secularmerlin
Like what SPECIFICALLY?
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@Tarik
Like look for yourself. I'm not going to trouble looking back through our conversation with that kind of depth you if you are going to be impossible to communicate with. Why would I bother?
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@Tarik
But SPECIFICALLY every time it happened.