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@3RU7AL
i dont know, you tell me
God’s Own Unwillingness to Show “proof” of His Existence.
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@Soluminsanis
yup, this happens all the time. The idea that if God just told me that he was real, then I would believe it, but of course why should he reach out to you, you gave no effort and don't believe in him, you failed the test
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@Dr.Franklin
Are you trying to tell me the Creator of the universe isn't obligated to follow my command for him to split open the sky or write his name on the moon for me personally or do some other such silly and arbitrary thing I tell people would convince me?
Nonsense!
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@Dr.Franklin
Balak, the king of Moab, is frightened by reports of the approaching Israelites and decides to hire Balaam to pronounce a curse upon Israel so that he will be able to defeat them in war. Ancient Near Eastern kings often expected prophets and diviners to pronounce such maledictions upon their foes before battle, and Balaam was apparently known as a famous seer or prophet. God (here called “Elohim”) appears several times to Balaam in a dream and forbids him to curse Israel. Eventually, however, the deity grants Balaam permission to accept Balak’s assignment. What follows is the well-known scene of a talking donkey and a messenger from Yahweh blocking Balaam on his way to proclaim the curse. Finally, Balaam arrives at his destination, yet he ends up arousing the indignation of the Moabite king by repeatedly pronouncing upon Israel several lengthy, beautifully formulated poetic blessings.
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@fauxlaw
If you already have a perfect knowledge of something, there is no need to apply failth, Faith, as I've said, is applied to things which are unseen, but which are true without our knowledge of it. Plenty of unknowns out there that can be known. Start there with faith, and if it is not true, you will have no resulting knowledge.
How is anyone supposed to apply faith in only true things before you know what is true and why on earth would you ask about things when you already know the truth of the matter?
I'm not sure how I could ever follow your prescribed method and to complicate matters I have been given similar instructions from people previously who would immediately add that the book of mormon is not the truth by any definition but particularly not from a religious one.
If one can "ask in faith" and arrive at Mormonism and also the southern Baptist movement and also at Islam and also at buddhism or jainism or taoism or wiccan practice or scientology or any of hundreds or even thousands of religions around the world how would I as an outsider ever determine which of you is correct, or indeed if any of you are?
Do you have any arguments that rely on sufficient independently verifiable evidence rather than faith? It would really help me in evaluating your claim.
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@3RU7AL
and how does this connect to your point?
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@Soluminsanis
lol yeah, its like George carlin when he says "if there is god, then strike me dead now"
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@Dr.Franklin
@Soluminsanis
-->@Stephen
Let's be real here I am just a human with limited resources and information. If any all knowing all powerful being exists and his end goal is my belief then he must both know how to convince everyone on earth and be capable of the feet. Let's even assume that only those who seek in faith will find the truth then we would still expect all people of faith to arrive at the same conclusions and that simply isn't what we observe.
How much effort have you put into reaching out to other deities? If you put no effort into seeking the buddha why would you expect to reach enlightenment? I'm afraid that there are just to many conflicting stories and opinions within Christianity for me to figure out who has the "right" faith. When you add in all the other religions and all of their various sects I simply don't have enough time in this life to fairly evaluate them all in even a fairly cursory manner let alone with the kind of life long introspection that most people of faith seem to be suggesting as necessary for any real understanding. I'm sorry but if believers cannot even work out among each other what "truth" you will "know" through "faith" then I'm not sure what you expect from me."if you put in no effort to know Jesus, why should he reach out to you?"
Let's be real here I am just a human with limited resources and information. If any all knowing all powerful being exists and his end goal is my belief then he must both know how to convince everyone on earth and be capable of the feet. Let's even assume that only those who seek in faith will find the truth then we would still expect all people of faith to arrive at the same conclusions and that simply isn't what we observe.
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@3RU7AL
So, would you say that "true-true believers" will always divine the same answer?And the only way to detect the real "true-true believer" is to wait for confirmation of their predictions?Are real "true-true believers" almost never mistaken?
I can only speak for me. I have applied the sequence of tasks I described as honestly and open-minded as I know how to be, and I have received the confirmation sought.
No predictions involved other than several men of history I trust implicitly have said that the pursuit of knowledge is more than by the five senses and having faith [more than mere belief] and proceeding exactly as defined and that such wisdom is gained by its sincere application by the power of the Holy Ghost, and it does not matter whether I am seeking knowledge of God, or how to solve a professional problem encountered, or just a confirmation that God speaks to man today thorugh the Holy Ghost who can comfort my anxiety and give peace such as I have never known. I am a truly happy man.
I'm mistaken a lot. Sometimes, I rely on my own will and strength of purpose, or I forget, when blessed, to express my gratitude. At such times, I am alone, justifiably, until I put myself right. God is never the one to abandon our relationship, but I mistakenly do it frequently. Nobody ever said perfection is easy to accomplish, but it's worth it to try, and keep trying, until I, too, can say, like the prophet, Yoda; "Do, or do not. There is no try."
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@secularmerlin
It would really help me in evaluating your claim.
You want a sign? When, after feeding the 5,000, and Jesus offered the Bread of Life sermon, in which he frankly told the crowd that he was the Messiah, many left, saying, "This is an hard word, who can hear it." Jesus as Peter, and others, "Will ye also go?" Peter replied, "To whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life." I cannot convince you that the Holy Spirit can reveal all things, even by my own experience. don't seek a sign. The discovery of truth is entirely on you. You say others have told you this and that. Fine. I've given you a path to follow; steps to take to get answers from the Source. I cannot, of myself, other than by my own assurance that following that path will, for the sacrifice of sincerity of heart, by applying nothing more than a modicum of faith, at first, it will reveal wonders to you you cannot now imagine. A clarity of inner sight you have not now. A peace you cannot encompass, and a joy that will not leave you alone. And a surety that as you continue to apply more faith, having harvested a little fruit, will harvest more as your faith grows. I know this is true, but I had to apply it myself. No one could show me more, but by my own applied effort. Same with everyone. Stop worrying about what others say and find out what God says to your heart and soul.
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@fauxlaw
I once believed things on faith. I searched within myself earnestly in faith and thought I knew the truth by that faith. Upon honest examination of my reasons for belief I found that I wasn't actually justified at all. In my attempt to hold on to some faith I read the whole bible. Then I read it again and although I had never self identified as a Christian I must admit it was the Christian bible at least in part that lead my to atheism. On other words the method you are right now advocating led to me being a nonbeliever. I did search in faith and I found it insufficient.
At this point I find that a lot of believers tell me that I have gotten the magic formula wrong. That I couldn't have had "true" faith originally would have found god. This is very convenient for someone who has an unfalsifiable position and if carried to its logical conclusion a little rude since it is tantamount to calling someone a liar.
If you were not about to make that or a similar point I apologize for the misunderstanding and am prepared to give your actual response fair consideration. If however that is where you are going you really could save it because I don't think much of the no true scotsman argument.
I noticed also that you said that jesus said some stuff. That's really nice and all but jesus saying stuff, doing stuff and being more than human is the claim and under no circumstances can a claim ever act as conclusive evidence for itself. The bible does not prove the existence of god it proves the existence of books. I don't dispute for a moment that books exist.
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@Dr.Franklin
Why isn’t Jesus willing to show the disbelievers today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be treated any different from Thomas –a disciple - and Paul a disbelieving persecutor and murderer of early Christians?if you put in no effort to know Jesus, why should he reach out to you?
I have been researching the bible for decades now Doc, The New Testament in particular. I found Jesus . I know what he was. I know his intention, I know his claim and I know who he ONLY came to reunite and rule over. He failed miserably.
Now try answering the questions Doc, or simply go away.
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@3RU7AL
Interesting that I find yet again that it is the theist that is struggling to even approach the questions but instead choose to take the easier rout of talking about "faith" and what the Book of Mormon has to say while ignoring the fundamental questions of the op.
Jesus would rather show himself to a persecuting murderer of the followers in his own flock than to the devout member of his own congregation praying for the life of a child. And Paul/Saul wasn't even a disciple of Jesus or an apostle before his Road to Damascus moment. Read for yourself > Pauls past life Acts 22: 4 . Read how Paul destroyed the church and dragged women from their own homes and imprisoned them: > Acts 8:1-3. Yet he gets to have a one to one during a personal visit from Jesus himself.
And in spite of all he is said to have witnessed with his own eyes, and all the times that Jesus son of god himself had spoke about his resurrection, Thomas can be celebrated for disbelieving Jesus was resurrected from the "dead" unless he had physical proof!? Isn't this "blaspheme"????
“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”John 20:24 ?
Is this not "testing god"?
What ever happened to ;
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Matthew 4:7 ?????????? It appears that absolutely nothing happens if we question and tempt Jesus. Well, not if your name is Thomas.
Compare the reaction by Jesus to Thomas' complete lack of faith to the scolding he gives to his other disciples for simply worrying about things that mere mortals do naturally worry about :
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" about tomorrow :
Matthew 6:30: “ O ye of little faith?”
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they may lose their lives in a storm:
Matthew 8:26: “ O ye of little faith"?
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they hadn't any bread:
”Matthew 16:8: “ O ye of little faith",
Luke repeats Matthew 6:30 where the apostles are " "worrying" about tomorrow:
”Luke 12:28: “O ye of little faith?”
Interesting too that John the baptist also "doubted" Jesus. Matthew 11:3
Jesus doubted his " father ". Matthew 27:46
At #4 fauxlaw has suggested that Thomas was "blessed" for his doubting attitude and demanding proof.
Yet when we read of Zechariah's doubting reaction to the news that his "barren wife" was to have a baby he was struck dumb for his doubting and disbelieving.
" And now, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time,you will be silent, unable to speak, until the day these things take place" .Luke 1:20
There is absolutely no reason why Jesus should not afford us doubting theists the same proof that he afforded the doubting Thomas or the murderer Paul. It would be a little price to pay being struck dumb for the gestation period of nine months if it meant Jesus showing up and putting the world to rights.
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@Stephen
“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
This seems like a perfectly reasonable request for evidence.
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@fauxlaw
No predictions involved other than several men of history I trust implicitly
I lack implicit trust in men.
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@Dr.Franklin
and how does this connect to your point?
You asked me how much effort Balaam demonstrated.
I answered your question.
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@3RU7AL
“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”This seems like a perfectly reasonable request for evidence.
It does. And in Thomas' case, Jesus also must have thought so too as there was no reprimand about daring to "tempt the lord god". Matthew 4:7.
Jesus must have waived the rules in Thomas' case. Anyone else seems to be punished or reprimanded and snapped at for being "of little faith"for having the audacity as to ask Jesus for evidence and because they had the utter nerve to "disbelieve".
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@3RU7AL
Some are worthy of trust and will not deceive you.
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@fauxlaw
Some are worthy of trust and will not deceive you.
How do I detect the ones who are "worthy of trust and will not deceive"?
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FAUXLAW:
YOUR REVEALING QUOTE IN HEBREWS 11:1: “Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.”
Barring the FACT that you did not show respect for Jesus in not including the verse in question, of which I did for you, you are correct, Christians can hope that Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, actually aborted and will murder babies if they were born by the women of Ephraim because He was upset with them.
"As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth even from the womb and from the conception.Though they bring up their sons, yet I will bereave them, that there shall not be a man left; yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! Ephraim, as I saw Tyre, is planted in a pleasant place; but Ephraim shall bring forth his sons to the murderer. Give them, O LORD, that which thou must give them; give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. All their wickedness was in Gilgal, for there I took a dislike to them; for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of my house, I will never love them again: all their princes are disloyal. Ephraim was smitten, their root is dried up; they shall bear no more fruit; even though they bring forth, yet I will slay even the desirable fruit of their womb." (Hosea 9: 11-16)
Can you accept the biblical axiom that Jesus not only will give the women of Ephraim a miscarrying womb, but if said babies were actually born, He stayed them in front of the mothers as the verse above so states? Thats our ever loving and forgiving Jesus that we have to accept 100 percent in a bewildering way, am I correct?
Fauxlaw, you will probably EMBARRASSINGLY RUN AWAY AGAIN from yet another of my posts to you in front of the membership, relative to the true MO of our serial killer Jesus, or, will you find your big boy pants and discuss this matter with me? Your answer will be ....?
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@BrotherDThomas
From whence comes Ephraim in my posting that you should dangle that argument? Who's running from this string? Not me, my friend, but thee. No, in a word, you are not correct. But, proceed to run your mouth in victory that Ephraim's women are barren. Your argument; you make it, first. But as another has told to me, it must harmonize with whatever this string is about, and I am fairly certain it in not about barren women. Thanks for playing.
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@3RU7AL
a simple not much or nothing would be more productive
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@Stephen
no he didnt fail miserably, i cant argue this though because you are arguing your own personal experience
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@secularmerlin
the right faith is catholicism
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@Dr.Franklin
the right faith is catholicism
See this actually weakens theistic claims rather than strengthening them.
IF faith is sufficient to lead to truth and IF Catholicism is the truth that faith leads to THEN we would not expect faith to lead to other religious doctrines.
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@Dr.Franklin
One faith is Catholicism....(Well not strictly true.)
Though how you would determine "right"..... I'm not certain.
Maybe dirty old celibates and child abuse are two of the criteria?
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@Dr.Franklin
no he didnt fail miserably,
If you, like me accept that there was indeed an historical Jesus, then he clearly failed at his mission to unit and rule over his CHOSEN people the Jews and died a miserable tortuous death for his efforts. In his own words Jesus explains who he had been sent to and why. He failed.
While he was here he lied and contradicted himself or the gospel writers are simply inventing stories about him and putting words into his mouth..
See here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5642-if-these-were-not-jesus-own-contradictory-words
Jesus has no reason not to show himself considering he showed himself to the unbelieving murderer -Paul - who admits to killing and imprisoning members of his own flock including women.Acts 22: 4 - Acts 8:1-3
You have ignored the fact that Thomas refused to believe Jesus was resurrected yet was "blessed" not reprimanded for his point blank refusal to believe without physical proof ( which Jesus clearly then offeredJohn20:29 without an argument ) yet won't answer a prayer from a devout christian mother begging and pleading for the life of her child.
Now I ask you again, either take on my questions in this thread or leave it . If you don't have any answerers at all then say so and leave. If you had no answers to begin with, then you had no business on this thread in the first place, did you.
Jesus we are told above had "blessed" Thomas for doubting his resurrection and asking for proof.
It appears that the Jesus himself understood that us mere mortals need proof and had no problem what so ever with providing it to the unbelievers of his day .
Take this story from John 4:46-52.
Once more he visited Cana in Galilee, where he had turned the water into wine. And there was a certain royal official whose son lay sick at Capernaum. When this man heard that Jesus had arrived in Galilee from Judea, he went to him and begged him to come and heal his son, who was close to death.“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
The royal official said, “Sir, come down before my child dies.”
“Go,” Jesus replied, “your son will live.”
The man took Jesus at his word and departed. While he was still on the way, his servants met him with the news that his boy was living. When he inquired as to the time when his son got better, they said to him, “Yesterday, at one in the afternoon, the fever left him.”
Why isn't there even a hint of a warning here about tempting the lord,!?
Why do "Y’all ignore" :
"Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah". Deuteronomy 6:16 ?
Why do "Y’all ignore" the fact that Jesus drives home the fact that - "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Matthew 4:7
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FAUXLAW,
YOUR RUNAWAY POST TO ME #488,373,475: "From whence comes Ephraim in my posting that you should dangle that argument? Who's running from this string? Not me, my friend, but thee. No, in a word, you are not correct. But, proceed to run your mouth in victory that Ephraim's women are barren. Your argument; you make it, first. But as another has told to me, it must harmonize with whatever this string is about, and I am fairly certain it in not about barren women. Thanks for playing."
You proffered the following quote RELATIVE to this thread, “Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen,” therefore I gave you an example of using your quote in our serial killer Jesus miscarrying the wombs of the women of Ephraim and murdering their babies if they were born! UNDERSTOOD English language and Bible fool? Therefore, AGAIN at your embarrassment in front of the membership, and using your quote, can Christians have FAITH and HOPE that the written EVIDENCE in Hosea 9: 11-16 is true in that Jesus gave women miscarrying wombs and murdered their babies if they were born?! EXPLAIN!
YOUR QUOTE WHERE YOU DO NOT GIVE PROOF IN USING THE ETHANG5 RUSE OF RUNNING AWAY: "No, in a word, you are not correct"
Barring the fact that you comically used 4 words instead of using 1 word like you stated at first, instead of always running away and not giving proof to your claims, how am I not correct in stating that Jesus performed abortions and murdered babies if they were born in the Hosea proposition? Are you calling Jesus' inspired words in Hosea 9: 11-16 as LIES?! EXPLAIN!
Awaiting a cogent reply this time, and not some grade school namby-pamby response, understood? Remember, you are being watched not only by the membership of this prestigious forum, but by Jesus Himself (Hebrews 4:13), get it?
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@Stephen
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Stephen,
YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE ONCE AGAIN: "If you, like me accept that there was indeed an historical Jesus, then he clearly failed at his mission to unit and rule over his CHOSEN people the Jews and died a miserable tortuous death for his efforts. In his own words Jesus explains who he had been sent to and why. He failed. "
Barring the disturbing historical aspect of Jesus, which when studied and shown, there is sparse and embarrassing non-evidence of Jesus historically existing subsequent to his death. That being said, what has always disturbed me was how can Jesus being a true God die in the first place, especially in a Triune situation? Look at historical images of poor Jesus pulling His own cross to the area where it will be placed, and then being nailed to it! Then look at historical images of Zeus, where He holds lightening bolts in His hands and throws them at His will!
In Jesus being the God of the JEWS ONLY, and being killed in the aforementioned fashion, Jesus does not compare with the much stronger Greek God Zeus, especially in that Zeus was the king of all Gods as shown in this link: https://www.greekmythology.com/Olympians/Zeus/zeus.html. Do you think that Zeus would allow anyone to kill Him, NOT! We TRUE Christians have to accept that we worship a weak God namedJesus compared to the more powerful Greek God named Zeus.
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