No Show.

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 345
#31
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@ethang5
@Stephen
@PGA2.0
@fauxlaw


.
Stephen,

As I have easily shown relating to me alone in the link below, is the FACT that PGA2.0 is now vying to take over fauxlaw's cherished position of being the #1 runaway  and ignorant and stupid of the Bible fool within this forum, bar none!

Have you ever wondered why DEBATEART Religion Forum attracts so many Bible inept, and runaway from same, pseudo-christians like PGA2.0, fauxlaw, et al? Its like this specific forum has a flashing neon bright sign out front that says: "Welcome ALL Bible inept and runaway pseudo-christians to our Religion Forum, praise Jesus!"  

I do miss the ever so Bible inept and #1 king of the "non sequiturs" response posts to specific topics, poor ol' ethang5, where responding to him was like shooting fish in a barrel!   Also, lest we forget the ever so dumbfounded of the Bible Tradesecret, where it seems he/she/unknown is taking a lot of time off to heal from the Bible wounds that we easily inflicted upon him/her/unknown!  Further MIA's at this time are Bringerofrain?  Benjamin?  Sad indeed.  :(


.
#32
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
Not a single thing that you have posted goes anywhere in showing that Jesus returned from the dead and appeared to his apostles or anyone, [1] on a cloud or anything resembling as such after the accession.
Something tells me that you did not read a single thing I wrote, nor examined the proofs I offered. It went in one ear and out the other. 

Why do you keep reading into Jesus' Second Coming as a physical return? You're brushing off everything I have said, ignoring it because you have nothing but assertions. There are umpteen passages that back what I have said.

***

[1] Josephus - Chariots in the Clouds (vi:v:3)
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."(35)

Falvius Josephus mentions no raising from the dead of Jesus called the Christ and making a show on a cloud and sitting anywhere , either.
That was not my argument. My argument was that Josephus affirms the signs contained in the Olivet Discourse as happening, the great tribulation, the surrounding of Jerusalem by the Roman legions, the three factions fighting within the city while surrounded, famines, a woman eating her own baby, brother (Jew) fighting against brother (fellow Jew), false prophets leading the people astray, the temple and city fire, the dispersion of the Jews when the city fell, etc. 

Josephus on,
The Great tribulation - (vi:iii:3-4)
3. Now of those that perished by famine in the city, the number was prodigious, and the miseries they underwent were unspeakable; for if so much as the shadow of any kind of food did any where appear, a war was commenced presently, and the dearest friends fell a fighting one with another about it, snatching from each other the most miserable supports of life. Nor would men believe that those who were dying had no food, but the robbers would search them when they were expiring, lest any one should have concealed food in their bosoms, and counterfeited dying; nay, these robbers gaped for want, and ran about stumbling and staggering along like mad dogs, and reeling against the doors of the houses like drunken men; they would also, in the great distress they were in, rush into the very same houses two or three times in one and the same day. Moreover, their hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew every thing, while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch, and endured to eat them; nor did they at length abstain from girdles and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed: the very wisps of old hay became food to some; and some gathered up fibres, and sold a very small weight of them for four Attic [drachmae].

"21 for then {bthose days} ashall be great tribulation, bsuch as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation {athe world} bwhich God created until now, and never, {ano, nor ever} shall be. [These words spoken before the event are strikingly verified by the statements of Josephus written after it. "No other city," says he, "ever suffered miseries, nor did any age, from the beginning of the world, ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness that this was." And again: "If the miseries of all mankind from the creation were compared with those which the Jews then suffered, they would appear inferior."


A perverse generation - The Worst Generation (v:x:5)
5. It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly:—That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world….

Famines - (v:x:3)
3. It was now a miserable case, and a sight that would justly bring tears into our eyes, how men stood as to their food, while the more powerful had more than enough, and the weaker were lamenting [for want of it.] But the famine was too hard for all other passions, and it is destructive to nothing so much as to modesty; for what was otherwise worthy of reverence was in this case despised; insomuch that children pulled the very morsels that their fathers were eating out of their very mouths, and what was still more to be pitied, so did the mothers do as to their infants; and when those that were most dear were perishing under their hands, they were not ashamed to take from them the very last drops that might preserve their lives: and while they ate after this manner, yet were they not concealed in so doing; but the seditious every where came upon them immediately, and snatched away from them what they had gotten from others; for when they saw any house shut up, this was to them a signal that the people within had gotten some food; whereupon they broke open the doors, and ran in, and took pieces of what they were eating almost up out of their very throats, and this by force: the old men, who held their food fast, were beaten; and if the women hid what they had within their hands, their hair was torn for so doing; nor was there any commiseration shown either to the aged or to the infants, but they lifted up children from the ground as they hung upon the morsels they had gotten, and shook them down upon the floor. But still they were more barbarously cruel to those that had prevented their coming in, and had actually swallowed down what they were going to seize upon, as if they had been unjustly defrauded of their right.

Jerusalem Becomes a Wilderness
(vi:i:1)
1. Thus did the miseries of Jerusalem grow worse and worse every day, and the seditious were still more irritated by the calamities they were under, even while the famine preyed upon themselves, after it had preyed upon the people. And indeed the multitude of carcasses that lay in heaps one upon another was a horrible sight, and produced a pestilential stench, which was a hinderance to those that would make sallies out of the city, and fight the enemy: but as those were to go in battle-array, who had been already used to ten thousand murders, and must tread upon those dead bodies as they marched along, so were not they terrified, nor did they pity men as they marched over them; nor did they deem this affront offered to the deceased to be any ill omen to themselves; but as they had their right hands already polluted with the murders of their own countrymen, and in that condition ran out to fight with foreigners, they seem to me to have cast a reproach upon God himself, as if he were too slow in punishing them; for the war was not now gone on with as if they had any hope of victory; for they gloried after a brutish manner in that despair of deliverance they were already in.



#33
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
Continue,

A mother eating her son - (vi:iii:3-4)
She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, "O thou miserable infant! For whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed.

Woes to Jerusalem - Chariots in the Clouds (vi:v:3)
But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city.

that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"

Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come.
This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

***
"The SON Is Coming!"(24)
(v:vi:3)
3. …The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent,(25) and were carried two furlongs(26) and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, "THE SON COMETH:"(27) so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow…

***

John's Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)

Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)

John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)

Josephus -  “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3)

#34
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
I have said in another thread of mine that I personally believe Jesus survived the cross and went on to live at least another 40 years and was probably alive,  if not present at the time of the fall of Jerusalem. But I have no proof of that.
And I personally think you go against a wealth of information that is contrary to your belief. Your bias is noted and evident.

But YOU!  In typical fashion of the theist caught on the backfoot , you have ignored what these scriptures actually state.
No, I have not. I went through both 1 + 2 Peter, noting the audience of the address. You ignored any reference to such data.


LOOK>> “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened “Matthew24:25-34.
Mark13:26-30 says the same as does Luke21:27-32.
The error of your thinking is that you think "this generation" can mean another generation other than the one at the time. 

So what was to pass away? 

Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB)
17 “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

Not one letter of the Law or the prophets would pass away until everything was accomplished. What do we see in AD 70? We see that what Israel agreed to before God can no longer be met. All prophecy finds its fulfillment by AD 70, including the judgment and warnings that the NT speaks of in probably over one-third of its writing. 

After AD 70, there is no more temple, no more priesthood, no more animal sacrifice to make atonement for sin, no more festival sacrifices, no more genealogies. They have all passed away. The promised judgment on those who killed the prophets has taken place. 

All that is stated in Daniel 9:24-27 meets fulfillment by AD 70. 

Daniel 9:24 
24 “Seventy [a]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [b]finish the wrongdoing, to [c]make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [d]prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 

Peter was challenged wasn't he?  But he had no explanation for the no show did he,? So instead just like you he swerved the problem with bullshit : lets see what they said and  Peter's weasley reply.
Sure Peter had an explanation. He said that God is not slow in keeping His promises but does not want any to perish. The time was not yet up. The forty years of grace was not yet over. Although Jesus said they could not know the day or hour, they could know when it was near, even at the door.

Not only that, Jesus promised the disciples that when He departed, He would send the Spirit of truth that would guide them into all truth. That is why John could say about that hour that no one knew about before Jesus' resurrection; the hour was upon them.

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

They asked;
“Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”2Peter 3:4
Sure, they were skeptics and mockers. I explained why the promise had not yet materialized in the last segment. 

Yet even allowing for all those Jews alive at the time of the promise and living another hundred + years, Jesus simply failed to show and keep his promise. They didn't ask because he had returned, did they you fool.   They asked because he hadn't!       And everything went on the same.  
You're mistaken. You overlook the nature of His Second Coming. He came in the same manner and glory of the Father. I already asked you this in previous posts and you ignored my query. That made me suspect that you only had your own motives in mind, not a fair discussion on the subject. 

For some reason, you seem to think that the two letters were written after AD 70. Jesus had not returned at the time Peter wrote these letters. He was coming soon and Peter emplored them to be ready.  Judgment was near at the time of writing despite the scoffer's doubts. These MOCKERS were trying to rile up the people and turn them away from the Gospel. 

What was Peter's BS response to them:


8 " But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day".

Odd it is that Jesus forgot to mention this thousand years when he promised the generation living at the time of the promise.
As you taking some as literal that is figurative, a simile? 'Like' and 'as' denote figurative language, not literal. What that passage means is that time is insignificant to an eternal God. A day is like a thousand years to Him, and a thousand years is like a day - insignificant. Time is something God put in place for humanity, that they could measure seasons and times. The Messiah was to come to His people at a specific time in history, while the Old Covenant was still in place. That covenant disappeared in AD 70, as Hebrews 8:13 alludes to.  

Odd then isn't it that Jesus forgot to mention they wouldn't pass away because they would all live for another thousand years before they all witnessed his return. 
Rubbish. That is, you read into the text something it does not teach or infer. The thief references of 2 Peter are made clear in other passages. These 1st-century people were being warned not to let the day of Christ's Second Coming take them by surprise but be prepared for the time was near. Do you know how many times in the NT the shortness of time is mentioned concerning these 1st-century Jews? My opinion is that you are ignorant of both the audience of address and time statements. That is how you could develop these fanciful theories, fueled on the backs of other scoffers.

No matter how many verses you post here, trying to tell us that Jesus did return  , they won't alter what the scriptures actually state  and only go further to shown your BS is full of holes.
Not at all. You are mistaken. I suggest you tackle the different verses I mentioned and show how I have misinterpreted them and how you got them right. 

And this is all before we even get on to what all this is supposed to mean in the "ancient Greek language" that you Christians always rely on for another BS excuse for the scriptures failings.
Failings? Garbage. You keep showing a lack of understanding of Scripture through the many threads you have created over the years, Stephen. 

Christians are too dumb to realise that every time they pull out the Greek card, that they render the whole of the Christian bible written in English obsolete and useless as  any kind of theological authority. 

Every English translation worth its weight relies on the koine Greek in which the NT authors wrote. You seem to think that we translate from language to language. That is not true. 
#35
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
poundmethomas' welcome mat went flying long ago when the pounder first slipped on it. Been slipping ever since, mat or no mat.
Topic's author
#36
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@BrotherDThomas
Have you ever wondered why DEBATEART Religion Forum attracts so many Bible inept, and runaway from same, pseudo-christians like PGA2.0, fauxlaw, et al?

Recently I have , Brother.  I fear that many are too ill equipped for these religion forums that throw at them biblical questions and anomalies that  they haven't been taught and educated enough to counter . And we all know the reason for that too. 
And they are certainly not bible savvy enough to hold a decent conversation concerning the scriptures without getting high and mighty and holier than thou, all over the place.  

I came to realise long ago that is all they are good for is preaching and "passing on" what it is they have been taught about these anomalous, contradictory, half stories that go to make up the scriptures as was confessed once by non other than a serving Pastor and Chaplin who is a member here.

Do you remember this confession the Reverend Tradesecret , Brother>>

#20"I in most parts are merely passing on the teaching of what i havereceived. I do not have an agenda. I really don't."<<   this from one of those " fools " that you refer to. Tell me, Brother, how is it that  a serving Pastor and Chaplin can  forget his god given agenda of the Great Commission!? How can he say , " I have no agenda"?  It appears to me that this particular clergy man wanted to wash his hands of the whole affair with that statement. It came across to me as as  "don't shot the messenger", get out.

Its like this specific forum has a flashing neon bright sign out front that says: "Welcome ALL Bible inept and runaway pseudo-christians to our Religion Forum, praise Jesus!"  
Maybe they were sent here by god to receive proper learning from those that do know these scriptures far better than themselves.


I do miss the ever so Bible inept and #1 king of the "non sequiturs" response posts to specific topics, poor ol' ethang5, where responding to him was like shooting fish in a barrel!  

 I didn't notice , Brother. Has he not been around lately?


Also, lest we forget the ever so dumbfounded of the Bible Tradesecret, where it seems he/she/unknown is taking a lot of time off to heal from the Bible wounds that we easily inflicted upon him/her/unknown!

Is he missing too?  Maybe it has to do with many of those wounds being self inflicted for the best part, caused by his own bible ignorance, Brother. He shot himself in both feet so often he probably needs time to heal.
 

 Sad indeed.  :(

I don't find it sad at all, Brother.   They are all cowards that resort to double standards, hypocrisy, rewriting scripture and putting words into the mouths of biblical characters, not to mention outright lying , when stuck for replies and answers.

 I must confess, I am still surprised even today that the bible ignorant still today resort to the  of use that old favourite  theological  card "the ancient Greek language". It just smacks of desperation every time its played.



#37
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@PGA2.0
Familiarize yourself with what actually happened.
A tad arrogant perhaps?


No one knows what actually happened 1900 years ago.



Topic's author
#38
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@PGA2.0
Not a single thing that you have posted goes anywhere in showing that Jesus returned from the dead and appeared to his apostles or anyone, [1] on a cloud or anything resembling as such after the accession.
Something tells me that you did not read a single thing I wrote,

Oh but I did.  And I have said that offering more unreliable " cherry picked" verses from the same unreliable source does not and will not serve as any type of proof.  


nor examined the proofs I offered. 

You offer not a single iota of proof.  


Why do you keep reading into Jesus' Second Coming as a physical return?

That is how it is written, numerously.    Or are you now attempting to rewrite scripture. Are you telling us that Jesus is in fact not going to return physically.  Or has returned but not physically?

Revelation 1:7  Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”


You're brushing off everything I have said, ignoring it because you have nothing but assertions.

I have asserted nothing. I have added nothing to what the scripture actually states where-as, you are attempting to do just that..  You are now at the -making it up as you go along -stage. 


There are umpteen passages that back what I have said.

Nope.  But  there are passages that suggest a physical, bodily return that is observable to every single being on the planet.   A return to establish "his kingdom on earth". Or has the words; 

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in. earth, as it is in heaven", escaped you?



And I personally think you go against a wealth of information that is contrary to your belief.

What belief?   The belief that Jesus failed to return?



Your bias is noted and evident.

My difference of opinion, is what you mean.


Every English translation worth its weight relies on the koine Greek in which the NT authors wrote. You seem to think that we translate from language to language. That is not true. 

It is you and your ilk that pull the Greek card at every stumbling block, I am quite happy reading these scriptures in English.     Tell me. what does the English word  " "secret" mean or defined as in " koine Greek" ?




#39
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen

Not a single thing that you have posted goes anywhere in showing that Jesus returned from the dead and appeared to his apostles or anyone, [1] on a cloud or anything resembling as such after the accession.
Something tells me that you did not read a single thing I wrote,

Oh but I did.  And I have said that offering more unreliable " cherry picked" verses from the same unreliable source does not and will not serve as any type of proof.  
Cherry-picked? The source is the verses and what they actually convey to the primary audience of address, not what you or I read into them. I have pointed out that you paid little attention to the audience of address or the wording in 2 Peter. You failed to note that 'like' and 'as' are not literal but comparison or simile, a comparison of speech to compare one thing with another. To God, a thousand years is like a day, and a day as a thousand years. What does that convey through induction? It conveys that God transcends time. Genesis 1:14-15 tells the reader the purpose of the sun, moon, and stars, to delineate seasons and times for humanity. God created time with the physical Universe, the beginning. 

nor examined the proofs I offered. 

You offer not a single iota of proof. 
You do not understand what proof is in a sense I use it, perhaps? Here is one of the nine meanings of proof:

Noun: Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish the truth of a statement. 

Why do you keep reading into Jesus' Second Coming as a physical return?

That is how it is written, numerously.  Or are you now attempting to rewrite scripture. Are you telling us that Jesus is in fact not going to return physically.  Or has returned but not physically?
Nope, I am not trying to rewrite but explain or give you an understanding of the biblical sense in which the Second Coming is meant.

Revelation 1:7  Behold, [1] he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, [2] even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
As I said, "see" can mean physical sight or mental UNDERSTANDING. It is used in Revelation 1:7. It refers to understanding. How could everyone at that time see a physical Jesus? I also pointed out the reference is applied to Israel since that verse conflates the two texts from the OT into one.

[1] Daniel 7:13-14 is HEAVEN, not earth, as also conveyed in Revelation 4 and 5. Here Jesus comes before every tribe of the land/earth in judgment. But besides that, on planet Earth, the tribes of the land (the nation of Israel) will understand that they rejected the Holy One of Israel with the judgment. 

As I said before, coming with the clouds (in the same manner the Father came to a people in the OT) speaks of judgment. As I asked before, and you keep ignoring most of my questions or reply with another question to avoid exegesis of the texts, as per Matthew 16:27, how did the Father come in His glory in the OT? Was it ever disclosed that He came physically to a nation in judgment? Show me that it was. 

[2] Zechariah 12:10 is where this part of Revelation 1:7 is citing.

2 “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup [a]that causes staggering to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3 It will come about on that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will injure themselves severely. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4 On that day,” declares the Lord, “I will strike every horse with confusion and its rider with insanity. 

Why, because Israel rejected the long-awaited Messiah and all the prophets and saints God sent it leading up to the time of the Messiah.

So, Zechariah 12:10 applies to Israel (specifically Judah), as does most of the rest of Revelation. John's version of the Olivet Discourse (of Jesus) explained in more detail by the revelation given to John. These NT writings also contain the soon-to-be prophetic fulfillment of large portions of OT scripture, especially sections of Daniel, as I pointed out with the scroll's sealing and opening. Daniel is told to seal up the prophecy until the end times, and Jesus, in heaven, is opening the seals of judgment upon Israel for their apostasy and rejection of their Messiah. 

What is the "end of the age" spoken of to Daniel?

Daniel 12:13 But as for you, go your way to the [o]end; then you will rest and [p]rise for your allotted portion at the end of the [q]age.

And what age was Jesus referring to in Matthew 24:3, Stephen?

Matthew 24:3 (NASB)
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the [a]end of the age?”

Tell me, Stephen, how many ages does Jesus refer to, and what age were Israel and Jesus living in with His time on earth? Can you answer that? 

Do you understand the significance of "this age" that Jesus speaks of, or the ONE to come? I want to hear from you concerning this. Tell me how you determine what age it is as applied by Jesus? To which age did He come, per Scripture? How do you figure that out? Hint, to what people did He come to? Who were His own people? What does that mean to you? 

Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
Just as Jesus left in the cloud of glory (i.e., God's presence) so He will come in like manner (in the glory of God). 

Acts 1:9-11 (NASB)
The Ascension
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, then behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, 11 and they said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

A cloud took Him up, i.e., He was in the presence of God. That's how they saw Him leave, in the Shekinah glory of God. 

They will see (understand) Jesus coming in the same manner that He left, in the presence of God. 

How did God come to Israel in the OT? How was His presence seen? 

Exodus 16:10 NASB
And it came about as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the sons of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud. 

Did they see the Lord? No, they felt His presence in the cloud. David Curtis makes this plain:

And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I shall come to you in a thick cloud, in order that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe in you forever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the LORD. (Exodus 19:9 NASB)

And the LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD. (Exodus 34:5 NASB)

And the LORD said to Moses, "Tell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat. (Leviticus 16:2 NASB)

Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And it came about that when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again. (Numbers 11:25 NASB)

That is how God 'appeared' before His people. Even crossing the Red Sea, in His providence, we see the pillar of clouds by day guiding them to the Promised Land.

He did not take away the pillar of cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from the presence of the people.

So, when Jesus says that He will come in the glory of the Father, how did the Father come in glory (see above).

#40
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
Part 2


You're brushing off everything I have said, ignoring it because you have nothing but assertions.

I have asserted nothing. I have added nothing to what the scripture actually states where-as, you are attempting to do just that..  You are now at the -making it up as you go along -stage. 
Maybe you can't see your denial, but I'm sure others can. I spent two fairly long posts listing many points on why I had the correct interpretation of Scripture, and you brushed most off. Let's see how your view makes better sense of the text.

There are umpteen passages that back what I have said.

Nope.  But  there are passages that suggest a physical, bodily return that is observable to every single being on the planet.   A return to establish "his kingdom on earth". Or has the words; 
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

[ Jesus Our High Priest ] Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession: Jesus;

who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.”

But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in. earth, as it is in heaven", escaped you?
Yes, His kingdom did come, and His will shall be done on earth as it is in HEAVEN. We, as Christians, are part of a spiritual kingdom, even as we live on the earth. We have been born of the spiritual, and no one can enter or see the kingdom of God without being born again.

And I personally think you go against a wealth of information that is contrary to your belief.

What belief?   The belief that Jesus failed to return?
No, that He did return, just not in the manner you think the Bible said. You think the Bible teaches a literal physical return. I get into that more with the two verses you cited above. 


Your bias is noted and evident.

My difference of opinion, is what you mean.
Really, do you think you are neutral regarding the Bible and Christianity? You have built up an aversion that is evident from your multiple threads. No bias there???


And that is only the first page of the forum threads.

Every English translation worth its weight relies on the koine Greek in which the NT authors wrote. You seem to think that we translate from language to language. That is not true. 

It is [1]  you and your ilk that pull the Greek card at every stumbling block, I am quite happy reading these scriptures in English. [2] Tell me. what does the English word  " "secret" mean or defined as in " koine Greek" ?

[1] No bias? Ad hom. 

[2] Words in different languages have equivalencies, or else communication between two different languages would not happen. Words are symbols that represent the thing discussed. The point I was making is that translating does not lose word equivalencies because it goes from one language to another, not a multitude of languages. It goes from koine Greek to Latin, from koine Greek to German, from koine Greek to English, not from koine Greek to Latin, to German, to English. 

#41
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@PGA2.0
@fauxlaw



.
PGA2.0, vying to take over the position from fauxlaw of being the #1 Bible stupid and ignorant fool within this forum,

Shhhhhhhhhh, why embarrass yourself even further in your Satanic Bible rewrites to Stephen above that has forgotten more about the Bible than you will ever learn? LOL



PGA2.0, can you tell the other Bible inept pseudo-christians in what running shoes you wear subsequent to me easily OWNING YOU AND YOUR FAITH? Are they Adidas? Nike? Converse, or?  LOL!


NEXT?


.





Topic's author
#42
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2

Not a single thing that you have posted goes anywhere in showing that Jesus returned from the dead and appeared to his apostles or anyone, [1] on a cloud or anything resembling as such after the accession.
Something tells me that you did not read a single thing I wrote,

Oh but I did.  And I have said that offering more unreliable " cherry picked" verses from the same unreliable source does not and will not serve as any type of proof.  
Cherry-picked?

Yep. Cherry picked. You think that  by flooding my thread with cherry picked verses that you believe  somehow prove your point that Jesus returned to Earth in one form or another.  THEY DON'T! 

Everything promised about or by Jesus failed to come to fruition.   He didn't return after the ascension, no one - including Flavus Josephus - seen him arrive on a cloud. He failed to unite the lost sheep of Israel and free them from the Roman yoke and  he didn't make peace on Earth.  



This is how it is supposed to happen >> Revelation 1:7  Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ did not happen!


Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ did not happen!


This was supposed to happen>>>
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David”:Luke1:26-38

This is what happened instead >>>  "Jesus was taken to a place called Golgotha – which means ‘The place of the skull’ - for his crucifixion" Mark 15: 21–41

So you see. The only thing Jesus inherited was two pieces of wood, three nails and a view overlooking the Kidron Valley.    This is far from a throne of any description isn’t it? Especially the “great throne covered with ivory and overlaid with fine gold.” of King David, as described here > > > 1Kings 10:18


Stephen asked: Tell me. what does the English word  " "secret" mean or defined as in " koine Greek" ?


 Words in different languages have equivalencies, or else communication between two different languages would not happen. Words are symbols that represent the thing discussed. The point I was making is that translating does not lose word equivalencies because it goes from one language to another, not a multitude of languages. It goes from koine Greek to Latin, from koine Greek to German, from koine Greek to English, not from koine Greek to Latin, to German, to English. 

Ok.  In English the word - secret - is defined and means ; 
(1) something that is kept or meant to be kept unknown or unseen by others.
(2)not known or seen or not meant to be known or seen by others.





So simply tell me what the word "secret"  means in " koine Greek"? 
 





 





#43
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen

Not a single thing that you have posted goes anywhere in showing that Jesus returned from the dead and appeared to his apostles or anyone, [1] on a cloud or anything resembling as such after the accession.
Something tells me that you did not read a single thing I wrote,

Oh but I did.  And I have said that offering more unreliable " cherry picked" verses from the same unreliable source does not and will not serve as any type of proof.  
Cherry-picked?

Yep. Cherry picked. You think that  by flooding my thread with cherry picked verses that you believe  somehow prove your point that Jesus returned to Earth in one form or another.  THEY DON'T! 
BS. Do you think that asserting something enough makes it true? What I'm doing to your theology is showing it up for your eisegesis. You isolate verses and collapse contexts to prove your points. You ignore the audience of the address (a 1st-century Jewish people) and the time frame. That is false hermeneutics. You read your own interpretations into the text instead of finding out what the text means and says. To find out what it means, you often have to find out how the 1st-century audience would understand the meaning. Then, what did it mean to the PRIMARY audience it was written for? Your interpretation does violence to the text and distorts the meaning. 

Original Post, where all this state nonsense of yours happened because you do not understand the spiritual nature of Jesus' teaching:
Where was he?

Jesus said said to his followers that some of them would live to witness his return to earth:“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”. Matthew16: 27-28.
The verses in question that started the whole shazam showed the connection between a spiritual coming instead of a physical one. The first verse you gave me (Matthew 16:28) goes in conjunction with Matthew 16:27, which you listed but did not include. That is because it does not play into your made-up narrative.

27 For the Son of Man is [1] going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will [2] then repay every person according to his [a]deeds.

You could not even exegete it.

[1] Jesus said He would come in the Father's glory. I asked you how the Father's glory was demonstrated in the OT  --> No reply. Silence. 

[2] I mentioned that there was going to be a judgment taking place here, as confirmed throughout the NT. Every person was to be repaid according to their deeds. 

Matthew 16:28 (NASB)
28 “Truly I say to you, there are [1] some of those who are standing here who will not taste death --> [2] until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Some standing there? Who was standing there? Did you bother to find out? 

Matthew 24:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples,

Mark 8:34 And He summoned the crowd together with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. 

Luke 9:18 And it happened that while He was praying alone, the disciples were with Him

[1] Thus, some of them would still be alive at His Second Coming. So, once again, you have to understand how the Father came in the OT to His people. Jesus was coming in the same glory. Show me the Father came physically to His people. Show me that when the Father came in judgment, He came physically. If Jesus was coming in the glory of the Father, then you have to understand how the Father came in glory with His angels. Notice other passages that speak of the Father coming with the angels

[2] How did they see the Son of Man coming into His kingdom? What does that MEAN? When did Jesus come into His kingdom? Do you know, Stephen? Can you even answer that, Stephen, or do you not have a clue, you who pretends to know what Scripture teaches? 

Daniel 7:13-14 (NASB)
The Son of Man Presented
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and [a]a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all [b]languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

So, Jesus comes before the Father in HEAVEN, not on earth. 

Revelation 4 (NASB)
Scene in Heaven
4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2 Immediately I was in the [a]Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and someone was sitting on the throne. 

Again, a heaven scene, not an earthly one. 

Revelation 5:8b-11
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who [f]is to come.”
9 And when the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and they will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they [g]existed, and were created.”

We get the same words we find in Revelation 1:8, that of the One who was and is and is to COME. Throughout the Revelation, we find mention of the One coming and in Revelation 22, it is revealed as Jesus.

Again, we see God is given worship, and it is said He created all things, and because of Him, they exist. We find the same words used of Jesus throughout the NT as the creator of all things, and they exist for Him. 

Then in Revelation 5, still with the heavenly scene, we see the Son of Man coming before God's throne to receive His kingdom. Thus, Stephen's questions about 'thy kingdom come' on earth is just pure misunderstanding on his part. Revelation 5 reveals Jesus comes into His kingdom in heaven. 

5 And one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to be able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the [e]saints. 9 And they *sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

We Christians live on the earth in the victory Jesus won, part of His spiritual kingdom even here that is not of this world. It does not have the values of this world. We receive every spiritual blessing in Christ while we live here because we have been born again into His kingdom. 
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was [f]myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.”
13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.”

The same scene in Daniel 7:13-14 is shown in Revelation 4-5 to apply to Jesus Christ, and He receives the same glory and honour and worship that the Father does. 


#44
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen

Everything promised about or by Jesus failed to come to fruition.   He didn't return after the ascension, no one - including Flavus Josephus - seen him arrive on a cloud. He failed to unite the lost sheep of Israel and free them from the Roman yoke and  he didn't make peace on Earth.  
You are just so biased and set in your thinking that your confirmation bias triggers every time someone shows you that what you say is not provable by Scripture. 

Every prophecy in the OT came to fruition by AD 70. He returned spiritually in AD 70 in the judgment and reward for those waiting for Him. 

While Josephus mentions what people described as happening in Jerusalem during the siege, He does not mention Jesus specifically as coming. But he does mention the sources mention the judgment of the Son.

"The SON Is Coming!"(24)
(v:vi:3)
3. …The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent,(25) and were carried two furlongs(26) and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, "THE SON COMETH:"(27) so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow…

And huge hailstones, weighing about a talent each, *came down from heaven upon people; and people blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because the hailstone plague *was extremely severe.

8 And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given power to scorch people with fire. 9 And the people were scorched with [e]fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

These white balls or torches of fire flying through the sky. The Romans lit the stones, causing fires in the city and temple. 

This is how it is supposed to happen >> Revelation 1:7  Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ did not happen!
Again, you ignored my whole argument. Not one iota of reason, just assertions galore. 

Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ did not happen!
Again, total avoidance of my argument. Just more assertions, as if that wins any argument. 


Stephen asked: Tell me. what does the English word  " "secret" mean or defined as in " koine Greek" ?


 Words in different languages have equivalencies, or else communication between two different languages would not happen. Words are symbols that represent the thing discussed. The point I was making is that translating does not lose word equivalencies because it goes from one language to another, not a multitude of languages. It goes from koine Greek to Latin, from koine Greek to German, from koine Greek to English, not from koine Greek to Latin, to German, to English. 

Ok.  In English the word - secret - is defined and means ; 
(1) something that is kept or meant to be kept unknown or unseen by others.
(2)not known or seen or not meant to be known or seen by others.


So simply tell me what the word "secret"  means in " koine Greek"
The same as it means in English. In what sense are you applying it?




Topic's author
#45
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
Do you think that asserting something enough makes it true?

I have asserted nothing. I have simply highlighted what the bible clearly shows what was supposed to happen according to Jesus and the bible,  what didn't happen, and what the bible also says actually happened instead. Your problem is that there are so many contradictory half stories, and lies in the scripture that you have to invent a new story made up of your own opinions every time you are caught on the backfoot or  - as Christians often do - have painted yourself into a corner .  

So simply tell me what the word "secret"  means in " koine Greek"
The same as it means in English. In what sense are you applying it?

Yes, that is exactly what I thought.

But there are  some cretins on this board will have us all believe different. This is what I mean about the likes of you being caught on the backfoot and painting yourselves into a theological corner trying to defend these unreliable, ambiguous half stories that make up the scriptures not to mention the cruel nature of your god.

These white balls or torches of fire flying through the sky. The Romans lit the stones, causing fires in the city and temple.

He is describing the final stages of the siege of Jerusalem and its armaments.   Balls of fire do not a returning Jesus on a cloud make! 

This is not  the return of the son of god coming on a cloud to make peace and unite his people. They were even more dived than ever . Especially when a Jew  named Simon and  another Jew named John decided to start butchering their own people and decimating the temple in an attempt to gain power and control of the city.  

Josephus.
Galileanzealots led by someone whose name was John and a personal enemy of historian Flavius Josephus, a John who hadtaken over the temple, and along with a Simon had killed their own people and had “spilt the blood” ofGalileans inside of it. <<<READ THAT CAREFULLY, and then read what the Jesus of the gospels has to say. FlaviusJosephus The Wars Of The Jews) Or The History Of The Destruction OfJerusalem. Books V, VI and VII.

Bible
Andfrom the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heavensuffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV).  Is this a coincidence?

Is the collapse of Siloam tower incident yet another coincidence? 

Bible 
 "Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.  Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?  I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”


Josephus. 
“NOW,on the next night, a surprising disturbance fell upon the Romans; forwhereas Titus had given orders for the erection of three towers offifty cubits high, that by setting men upon them at every bank, hemight from thence drive those away who were upon the wall, it sohappened that oneof these towers fell down about midnight;and as its fall made a very great noise”.

Here's another;
Josephus 
" Thepriests and the Elders of the city send word to Pilate for help incase they “confiscateour property and put us to death and set our children adrift”

Bible
"But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad".

I not only maintain that the Jesus of the gospels was alive and well during the fall of Jerusalem. I also have good reason to believe that the secret disciple of Jesus, the biblical character Joseph of Arimathea (who it was asked for the body of Jesus)  is also  Yosef ben Matityahu, aka Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.




While Josephus mentions what people described as happening in Jerusalem during the siege, He does not mention Jesus specifically as coming. 

That is correct, yet here you are attempting to rewrite the works of Josephus by telling us what he meant just as you do with scripture.

You once said: 

"Josephus describes it[Jesus' second coming] in much detail."#27.   This was , according to you Josephus witnessing and or describing the second coming of Jesus as he promised he would.. Though you have backpaddled somewhat on that claim, telling us that Josephus " doesn't actual mention Jesus". 

Let me tell you. Balls of fire , stones heated in fire and sulphur fired from a giant sling/catapult is not describing the son of god's return on a cloud.   In fact, if we are to personify  such a weapon and its missiles, wouldn't it be  more aptly described as  " Satan coming on a cloud"?

You are just full of BS.   

The fall of Jerusalem was not started by the Romans, it was started by Jews,  and two Jews in particular, John and Simon vying for power who Josephus described  as "“Galileanbrigands” (zealots) with John being the greater culprit. He spilled blood in the temple and set it ablaze.  And Rome let them get on with it for about 4-5 years before stepping in to finish off that particular siege. 

And let me tell you further, Josephus does actually mention A Jesus being present. It appears that it was this Jesus that surrendered the vestment of the high priest to the Romans.  All these biblical names - A Simon,   A John,  A Jesus and  A Joseph and even A priest named  Caiaphas just like the biblical Caiaphas,  all present at the fall of the city of Jerusalem in AD 68-70.  Can this all be coincidental?  What are we to make of them and it all.

I have said. I have good reason to believe Jesus survived the ritualistic crucifixion played out so barbarically and was alive, if not present at the fall of Jerusalem.

Your boy didn't resurrect from the dead. He never did die. He didn't come disguised as a fire ball  from a giant catapult or on a cloud smoke.





#46
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
Do you think that asserting something enough makes it true?

I have asserted nothing.
Sure you have. 

Here is a smidgeon of your assertions:
Everything promised about or by Jesus failed to come to fruition.   He didn't return after the ascension, no one - including Flavus Josephus - seen him arrive on a cloud. He failed to unite the lost sheep of Israel and free them from the Roman yoke and  he didn't make peace on Earth.  
Those are assertions that need proper support and evidence. I have questioned most of what you have supplied as being biblically unfounded. You have ignored many of my replies and questions. 

I have simply highlighted what the bible clearly shows what was supposed to happen according to Jesus and the bible,  what didn't happen, and what the bible also says actually happened instead. Your problem is that there are so many contradictory half stories, and lies in the scripture that you have to invent a new story made up of your own opinions every time you are caught on the backfoot or  - as Christians often do - have painted yourself into a corner .  
I have shown you that when you properly understand the audience of address and nature of the Second Coming the Bible makes perfect sense. There are no contradictions. The Preterist view conflicts with your existing indoctrination and you cannot fathom it because your mind is completely closed to looking at the evidence. 

So simply tell me what the word "secret"  means in " koine Greek"
The same as it means in English. In what sense are you applying it?

Yes, that is exactly what I thought.

But there are  some cretins on this board will have us all believe different. This is what I mean about the likes of you being caught on the backfoot and painting yourselves into a theological corner trying to defend these unreliable, ambiguous half stories that make up the scriptures not to mention the cruel nature of your god.
I am perfectly happy to defend the position and I can. You haven't refuted my posts. You just keep supplying the same verses. You hightlight a particular phrase, as if that is doing the exegetical work for you. With Revelation 1:7 I explained to you the audience addressed by taking you back to the two OT verses that Revelation 1:7 combines. You ignored my post. I asked you how every eye would be able to see a physical man riding on the clouds. I explained to you that the OT speaks of the Father coming to His people in clouds and that they sensed His presence in the clouds. I mentioned in Matthew 16:27 that Jesus would come in the same manner as the Father (in the glory of the Father). If you don't understand how the Father came to His people how can you understand how Jesus will? Obviously, you need more biblical evidence of what I am saying. Here it is:

And it came about, as Aaron spoke to the entire congregation of the sons of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.

The glory of God was present in the cloud. They did not see God. Jesus was coming again in that glory, the glory of the Father. 

The glory of the Lord settled on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days; and on the seventh day He called to Moses from the midst of the cloud.

[ The Glory of the Lord ] Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.

And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud had settled on it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.

And Moses said, “This is the thing which the Lord has commanded you to do, so that the glory of the Lord may appear to you.”

And Moses and Aaron went into the tent of meeting. When they came out and blessed the people, the glory of the Lord appeared to all the people.

But all the congregation said to stone them with stones. Then the glory of the Lord appeared in the tent of meeting to all the sons of Israel.

So Korah assembled all the congregation against them at the entrance of the tent of meeting. And the glory of the Lord appeared to all the congregation.

It came about, however, when the congregation had assembled against Moses and Aaron, that they turned toward the tent of meeting, and behold, the cloud covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared.

Then Moses and Aaron came in from the presence of the assembly to the entrance of the tent of meeting and fell on their faces. And the glory of the Lord appeared to them;

You said, ‘Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with mankind, yet he lives.

“There is no one like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And the clouds in His majesty.

Clouds and thick darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.

He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks on the wings of the wind;

then the Lord will create over the entire area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, and smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy.

[ God’s Anger over Israel ] How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He has hurled The glory of Israel from heaven to earth, And has not remembered His footstool In the day of His anger.

Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub to the threshold of the temple, and the temple was filled with the cloud, and the courtyard was filled with the brightness of the glory of the Lord.

[ The Son of Man Presented ] “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

And coming in clouds of judgments:

And it will roar against it on that day like the roaring of the sea. If one looks across to the land, behold, there is darkness and distress; Even the light is darkened by its clouds.

“Behold, he goes up like clouds, And his chariots like the whirlwind; His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are ruined!”

For the day is near, Indeed, the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, A time of doom for the nations.

A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations.

The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, And the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. In the gale and the storm is His way, And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.

That day is a day of anger, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness,

NT:

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

He comes in the glory of the Father (exactly how the Father made His presences known in the OT), and He comes in judgment with great power as the Father came in judgment in the OT. And God never gave His glory to another, which means Jesus and the Father share the same glory. This can be backed up with many verses.

And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

The Son of Man coming as with the presences of God, with the clouds. 

Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

#47
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen

These white balls or torches of fire flying through the sky. The Romans lit the stones, causing fires in the city and temple.

He is describing the final stages of the siege of Jerusalem and its armaments.   Balls of fire do not a returning Jesus on a cloud make! 
They understood this to be the judgment of Christ. Clouds represent judgment, as the previous post demonstrates. Hence, the comment by Josephus from this person of the "Coming of the Son" with these balls of fire thrown from the Roman catapults weighing a talent in judgment, as promised through prophecy. 

This is not  the return of the son of god coming on a cloud to make peace and unite his people.
Sure it was. There was a two-fold judgment; one on the faithful (eternal life) and one on the wicked (eternal separation from the glory that is God. He came to reward those faithfully waiting for Him, and judge those who rejected Him, separate the wheat from the chaff, as promised in the OT and NT.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are [aa]sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 [ab]Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You snakes, you [ac]offspring of vipers, how [ad]will you escape the [ae]sentence of [af]hell?
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you will fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the [ag]temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Grieving over Jerusalem
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Remember what I explained about this generation in previous posts (40 years from AD 30-70). Judgment and reward were coming to that generation. The measure of sin, present through all the OT's rebellion, was filled up when they crucified their Saviour. 

They were even more dived than ever . Especially when a Jew  named Simon and  another Jew named John decided to start butchering their own people and decimating the temple in an attempt to gain power and control of the city. 
Again, Jesus promised His disciples that brother would fight against brother. We see and read that as happening in Scripture and Josephus's description in the internal turmoil during the siege of Jerusalem where three different factions fighting each other. Again, we see fulfilled prophecy from not only the Olivet Discourse but other passages of Scripture. 

“Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.


Josephus.
Galilean zealots led by someone whose name was John and a personal enemy of historian Flavius Josephus, a John who had taken over the temple, and along with a Simon had killed their own people and had “spilt the blood” of Galileans inside of it. <<<READ THAT CAREFULLY, and then read what the Jesus of the gospels has to say. Flavius Josephus The Wars Of The Jews) Or The History Of The Destruction OfJerusalem. Books V, VI and VII.

Bible
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV).  Is this a coincidence?

Is the collapse of Siloam tower incident yet another coincidence? 

Bible 
 "Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.  Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?  I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”


Josephus. 
“NOW,on the next night, a surprising disturbance fell upon the Romans; forwhereas Titus had given orders for the erection of three towers of fifty cubits high, that by setting men upon them at every bank, he might from thence drive those away who were upon the wall, it so happened that one of these towers fell down about midnight;and as its fall made a very great noise”.

Here's another;
Josephus 
" The priests and the Elders of the city send word to Pilate for help incase they “confiscate our property and put us to death and set our children adrift”

Bible
"But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad".

I not only maintain that the Jesus of the gospels was alive and well during the fall of Jerusalem.
That is right. He rose from the dead tree days after the crucifixion and is alive, and was during the fall of Jerusalem.

I also have good reason to believe that the secret disciple of Jesus, the biblical character Joseph of Arimathea (who it was asked for the body of Jesus)  is also  Yosef ben Matityahu, aka Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.
Bring you evidence. Let's test it. 

While Josephus mentions what people described as happening in Jerusalem during the siege, He does not mention Jesus specifically as coming. 

That is correct, yet here you are attempting to rewrite the works of Josephus by telling us what he meant just as you do with scripture.
No, I am saying the Olivet Discourse's prophetic signs find fulfillment during the siege that Josephus writes about.  


You once said: 

"Josephus describes it[Jesus' second coming] in much detail."#27.   This was , according to you Josephus witnessing and or describing the second coming of Jesus as he promised he would.. Though you have backpaddled somewhat on that claim, telling us that Josephus " doesn't actual mention Jesus". 
As I said, Josephus describes the Bible prophecies fulfillment by describing the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70. What was promised in the future concerning Jerusalem and the end of the OT's age (which you failed to address with my questions, as is your habit of cherry-picking only what suits you) meets its fulfillment in the history that Josephus describes.  

Let me tell you. Balls of fire , stones heated in fire and sulphur fired from a giant sling/catapult is not describing the son of god's return on a cloud.   In fact, if we are to personify  such a weapon and its missiles, wouldn't it be  more aptly described as  " Satan coming on a cloud"?
It is describing the judgment promised. That judgment was to take place before He came, before the end of the age. I asked you what age. No answer yet again. The end of the age signified the end of the OT economy and temple worship. It was replaced with a better covenant, a covenant promised in the OT by Jeremiah and other prophets.  






Topic's author
#48
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
This is not  the return of the son of god coming on a cloud to make peace and unite his people.
Sure it was. There was a two-fold judgment;

More BS. You just love making it up as you go, don't you.   How many times?  Posting unreliable verses from the same unreliable source does not make for  proof of anything at all.  

Listen , I will never agree that your boy returned from the dead and appeared at the fall of Jerusalem on a cloud of smoke, donkey or a bus.

Christians cannot even make up their minds about the timing of this promised return (even Jesus aka GOD! said he didn't know Matthew 24:36). You for instance will have us believe the promised return  as already happened in 70 AD, offering no proof but verses from the thousands of years old verses from Danial et al  and other Old Testament characters from that period .  All those OT predictions have been debunked millions of times over.

And then there are the millions of Christians and Christian denominations that believe the promised return hasn't happened yet.    They too put up verses from the Old & New Testaments that are supposed to point to and explain why and when it will happen. This is the contradictory and ambiguous nature of the scriptures: that they can be taken to read whatever YOU decide them to read.   And you , like them are full of BS. 



Josephus.
Galilean zealots led by someone whose name was John and a personal enemy of historian Flavius Josephus, a John who had taken over the temple, and along with a Simon had killed their own people and had “spilt the blood” of Galileans inside of it. <<<READ THAT CAREFULLY, and then read what the Jesus of the gospels has to say. Flavius Josephus The Wars Of The Jews) Or The History Of The Destruction OfJerusalem. Books V, VI and VII.

Bible
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV).  Is this a coincidence?

Is the collapse of Siloam tower incident yet another coincidence? 

Bible 
 "Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.  Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?  I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Josephus. 
“NOW,on the next night, a surprising disturbance fell upon the Romans; forwhereas Titus had given orders for the erection of three towers of fifty cubits high, that by setting men upon them at every bank, he might from thence drive those away who were upon the wall, it so happened that one of these towers fell down about midnight;and as its fall made a very great noise”.

Here's another;
Josephus 
" The priests and the Elders of the city send word to Pilate for help incase they “confiscate our property and put us to death and set our children adrift”

Bible
"But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad".

I not only maintain that the Jesus of the gospels was alive and well during the fall of Jerusalem.
 
That is right. He rose from the dead tree days after the crucifixion and is alive, and was during the fall of Jerusalem.

I didn't say he rose from the dead after three days, stop putting words into my mouth you deceitful turdflinger.  And you are forgetting that those biblical verses  that appear to replicate the Josephus verses are all supposed to have happened BEFORE the fall of Jerusalem AND the Crucifixion!  I.E>  The coincidental Josephus verses that I have highlighted above  are supposed to have occurred some 40 years after the death of Jesus. Interesting too isn't it that concerning these coincidences that Josephus also mentions A  Judas that was a  good and trusted  friend with Simon.  

All these characters with the same biblical names,   Judas, John, Simon, Caiaphas and Jesus all coincidentally appearing at  the same time at the fall of Jerusalem some 40 years after the crucifixion and the supposed accession into " heaven"  by Jesus. 


There isn't a single mention of the fall of Jerusalem in the New Testament, or is there. Unless this John is the same John Josephus talks about.!  " And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV)

Which in turn , would,  in my opinion,  mean that the  "the kingdom of heaven" is a term used for the Jerusalem temple that is very much of this earth.   That verse  speaks volumes when it is realised that Jesus hadn't been crucified at this point.   And there is no mention at all of a battle in a '  in the sky heaven ' that had been taken by force, is there. 


I have maintained all along that Jesus survived that horrendous ritual of crucifixion, a  dangerous drama acted &  played out  in reality  for the benefit of the gullible and superstitious of the time simply to gain followers and support.   (that is why his legs weren't broken). 

And if we are talking the same  biblical Jesus then it was he that was alive if not present at the fall of Jerusalem. I have maintained that stance from the day I joined this forum. I have also said many times that there is another story lying under the surface of these scriptures that the authors appear desperate to hide. I have also maintained that the New Testament is all about a power struggle. I also believe that John the Baptist, Simon (peter?)and Jesus were rivals. I have no solid proof of that, because again, it is all to do with how one chooses to read these ambiguous half stories that make up the nonsense that has come down to us as scripture.

 for example;  You,no doubt, will read the meeting down at the Jordan between John the Baptise and Jesus as showing John being subservient to Jesus (not fit to lick his sandals etc) . I read  it as a confrontation between two family members (siblings) vying for authority over the other. This is a rivalry story that is repeated throughout the whole bible (not to mention all of ancient history)  from the days of Cain killing Able and  Jacob and Esau etc. And  going by this repeated biblical pattern of sibling rivalry  it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that John and Jesus were fathered by the same acting  "Gabriel" and were not cousins but half brother. 

I could go deeper into this, but none of this explains Jesus returning on a cloud after apparently being dead and stinking in his rich mans tomb and ascending to heaven, does it!
And neither would me showing why I believe Joseph of Arimathea and   Yosef ben Matityahu, aka Jewish historian Flavius Josephus are one and the same person. 

Now I think that it is time for you to "  Familiarize yourself with what [may] have actually happened."



#49
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen

You are just full of BS.   

The fall of Jerusalem was not started by the Romans, it was started by Jews,  and two Jews in particular, John and Simon vying for power who Josephus described  as "“Galilean brigands” (zealots) with John being the greater culprit. He spilled blood in the temple and set it ablaze.  And Rome let them get on with it for about 4-5 years before stepping in to finish off that particular siege. 
The Temple is Set on Fire
Introductory Comment
    Here is Josephus' description of the moment when the first flame is put to the Temple. The agent of destruction is an anonymous Roman soldier, acting impulsively against the orders of the commander, Titus -- but obeying the orders, Josephus implies, of the highest authority.
 
    War 6.4.5 249-253
    So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the Temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the Holy House; but, as for that House, God had for certain long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of the ages: it was the tenth day of the month Lous, [Av,] upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon; although these flames took their rise from the Jews themselves, and were occasioned by them; for upon Titus's retiring, the seditious lay still for a little while, and then attacked the Romans again, when those that guarded the Holy House fought with those that quenched the fire that was burning in the inner court of the Temple; but these Romans put the Jews to flight, and proceeded as far as the Holy House itself.
    At which time one of the soldiers, without staying for any orders, and without any concern or dread upon him at so great an undertaking, and being hurried on by a certain divine fury, snatched somewhat out of the materials that were on fire, and being lifted up by another soldier, he set fire to a golden window, through which there was a passage to the rooms that were round about the Holy House, on the north side of it. As the flames went upward the Jews made a great clamour, such as so mighty an affliction required, and ran together to prevent it; and now they spared not their lives any longer, nor suffered anything to restrain their force, since that Holy House was perishing, for whose sake it was that they kept such a guard upon it.
The aspect of fate is stated by Josephus in saying that "God for certain long ago doomed it to the fire," and then pointing out that the Second Temple was set on fire by the Romans on the same day that the First Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BCE.

***

Overlooking the Temple compound, the fortress provided a perfect point from which to attack the Temple itself. Battering rams made little progress, but the fighting itself eventually set the walls on fire; a Roman soldier threw a burning stick onto one of the Temple's walls. Destroying the Temple was not among Titus's goals, possibly due in large part to the massive expansions done by Herod the Great mere decades earlier. Titus had wanted to seize it and transform it into a temple dedicated to the Roman Emperor and the Roman pantheon. However, the fire spread quickly and was soon out of control. The Temple was captured and destroyed on 9/10 Tisha B'Av, sometime in August 70 CE, and the flames spread into the residential sections of the city.[3][10] 

***

Flavius Josephus - Antiquities, xi. 1.2:
These Romans put the Jews to flight, and proceeded as far as the holy house itself.  At which time one of the soldiers, without staying for any orders, and without any concern or dread upon him at so great an undertaking, and being hurried on by a certain divine fury, snatched some what out of the materials that were on fire, and being lifted up by another soldier, he set fire to a golden window, through which there wion, passage to the rooms that were round about the holy house, on the north side of it.  As the flames went upward, the Jews made a great clamor, such as so mighty an affliction required, and ran together to prevent it; and now they spared not their lives any longer, nor suffered anything to restrain their force, since that holy house was perishing...thus it was the holy house burnt down...

***
While it is true that "it was the Jews who first used fire in the Northwest approach to the Temple to stop Roman advances," they did not set fire to the inner temple itself.

***

What is more, I could list various prophecies (a long list that is not just a coincidence) that meet their fulfillment with the destruction of the city and temple in AD 70. 


And let me tell you further, Josephus does actually mention A Jesus being present.
Are you seriously trying to equate Jesus the Messiah with Jesus, son of Ananias? You have a lot of evidence to the contrary to overcome. 

It appears that it was this Jesus that surrendered the vestment of the high priest to the Romans.  All these biblical names - A Simon,   A John,  A Jesus and  A Joseph and even A priest named  Caiaphas just like the biblical Caiaphas,  all present at the fall of the city of Jerusalem in AD 68-70.  Can this all be coincidental?  What are we to make of them and it all.
I don't know, but you are reading something into it. Can you support it? 

I have said. I have good reason to believe Jesus survived the ritualistic crucifixion played out so barbarically and was alive, if not present at the fall of Jerusalem.
Show me your proof so that I can dispute it instead of more assertions and innuendo.

Your boy didn't resurrect from the dead. He never did die. He didn't come disguised as a fire ball  from a giant catapult or on a cloud smoke.
The evidence is more reasonable that he did resurrect. Compile your list that gives evidence that He did not resurrect, and I will compile the evidence that supports He did, and we will let others judge which is more reasonable. If you wanted a formal debate on this topic, I am willing (put your money where your mouth is). 


Topic's author
#50
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@PGA2.0
Can you arrange your  bs above so I can decipher it ? Or simply do not waste my time.
#51
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen
@PGA2.0



.
Stephen,

You are wasting your valuable time with the biblically dumbfounded PGA2.0, and that is because as embarrassingly shown below, PGA2.0 will eventually RUN AWAY from you as he did with me in the following link: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5729-why-don-t-we-see-religious-people-debating-in-the-science-and-nature-forum?page=1&post_number=21

PGA2.0's long "War and Peace" dissertations are to throw you off whereas his mental capacity cannot even come close to scaling them down in a precise manner.  Besides, what did you expect in him being a Satanic "PRETEREST" where this division of Christianity accepts an "invisible resurrection" of Jesus the Christ on Pentecost Sunday, June 22, AD 66! Huh?  Can it get anymore laughable at PGA2.0 when he "swallowed" this Preterist kool aid and the ramifications thereof? NOT!

.








Topic's author
#52
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@BrotherDThomas
PGA2.0's long "War and Peace" dissertations are to throw you off

I noticed , Brother.


whereas his mental capacity cannot even come close to scaling them down in a precise manner.

Indeed, I noticed that too. And what he produces as proof goes nowhere in proving Jesus ' promised return after his accession to "  heaven " had already occurred in AD 70. And no matter how many biblical verses he produces to fit his beliefs  and believes proves his case, they don't!  

Besides, what did you expect in him being a Satanic "PRETEREST" where this division of Christianity accepts an "invisible resurrection" of Jesus the Christ on Pentecost Sunday, June 22, AD 66! Huh?
As I have pointed out, Brother,  he accuses me often of  "asserting",  when I assert nothing other than that which is clearly stated in these ambiguous unreliable  scriptures. 

PGA2.0 on the other hand, attempts to tell me that the even Jew turncoat Pharisee and historian Flavius Josephus witnessed the return of  "Jesus on a cloud " as per promise.

"Josephus describes it in much detail".#26  <<< this is of course simply  bare faced lie. 

He has since backpedaled slightly on that claim,  and tells us Josephus is saying that the missiles of flame and smoke catapulted at the city of Jerusalem were in fact  "Jesus coming on a cloud"  as he had promised.  You mentioned "mental capacity" above, I ask you,  has  anyone ever heard of such lunacy?  But he is more than entitled to his beliefs.


The facts are that this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation 1:7  Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. "  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  did not and has not happened!

And neither has this >>>>>>>>>>>Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”


As many of these high and mighty, holier than thou twats, often  do, he must have thought me far too stupid not to have ever heard of, never mind  read the works of Yosef ben Matityahu, aka Jewish historian Flavius Josephus for myself. 

Can it get anymore laughable

No. It can't, Brother.
#53
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
PGA2.0's long "War and Peace" dissertations are to throw you off

I noticed , Brother.


whereas his mental capacity cannot even come close to scaling them down in a precise manner.

Indeed, I noticed that too. And what he produces as proof goes nowhere in proving Jesus ' promised return after his accession to "  heaven " had already occurred in AD 70. And no matter how many biblical verses he produces to fit his beliefs  and believes proves his case, they don't!  

Besides, what did you expect in him being a Satanic "PRETEREST" where this division of Christianity accepts an "invisible resurrection" of Jesus the Christ on Pentecost Sunday, June 22, AD 66! Huh?
As I have pointed out, Brother,  he accuses me often of  "asserting",  when I assert nothing other than that which is clearly stated in these ambiguous unreliable  scriptures. 

PGA2.0 on the other hand, attempts to tell me that the even Jew turncoat Pharisee and historian Flavius Josephus witnessed the return of  "Jesus on a cloud " as per promise.
Prove your (yet another) assertion that Josephus was Joseph of Arimathea. 

"Josephus describes it in much detail".#26  <<< this is of course simply  bare faced lie. 
You ignored gallons of Josephus quotes. It is only what suits you that you reply to.

He has since backpedaled slightly on that claim,  and tells us Josephus is saying that the missiles of flame and smoke catapulted at the city of Jerusalem were in fact  "Jesus coming on a cloud"  as he had promised.  You mentioned "mental capacity" above, I ask you,  has  anyone ever heard of such lunacy?  But he is more than entitled to his beliefs.
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

The sign. The sign. There was a multitude of signs that would precede His second coming. 

As usual, Post 26 was virtually unchallenged. Also, Post 28 and 29 showed your inept understanding and hence, your big bluff. My 22 statements went unchallenged. (Clueless)
#54
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen

The facts are that this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation 1:7  Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. "  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  did not and has not happened!
Once again, Matthew 16:27 says that when He comes He will come in His Fathers glory, with the angels. How did the Father appear in the OT? I asked you this several times. Do you comprehend? How did the Father appear before His people in the OT? I gave you multiple clues. And what did it mean that He would "then repay every person according to his [a]deeds."And notice the time frame. Some there would not taste death before His second coming. 

Second, the wording, "every eye will see Him." See Him in what way? Understand or physical sighting? Can an eye be used in a way that does not denote physical sighting? 

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Third, how will every eye see Him coming with the clouds? Do you, Stephen know what OT writing this quote is taken from --> Daniel 7:13-14. It is a heavenly scene. Do you follow so far? The same scene (Daniel 7:13-14) meets its fulfillment in Revelation 4-5. The scene is where Jesus, the Lamb comes before the Father in heaven and is given dominion and power and honour and glory (i.e., the same glory He [the Son] shared with the Father before His incarnation). 

Revelation 5:9 “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation...11 Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was [f]myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.”

So, that generation of Jews would understand (see) that the Son is seated in the presence of the Father and all the saints. The eyes of their understanding would comprehend this. 

And if you think that is far-fetched Matthew 26:63-64 confirms that those on earth would also understand that Jesus is who He said He was and is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven and He would come on the clouds of heaven in the judgment of these very men and of the nation of Israel for rejecting their Messiah. 

But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I place You under oath by the living God, to tell us whether You are the [aa]Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his [ab]robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? See, you have now heard the blasphemy; 66 what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”

As I said before, Stephen, how did the Father come in judgment in the OT? He is described as coming in the clouds, as I showed you briefly in a previous post.  You ignored it because you were clueless once again. Remember, Jesus would come in the glory of the Father and reward everyone according to His deeds (judgment). 

Do you realize how many passages in the NT speak of a soon-coming judgment, and because of this, there were a warning and call to repentance before the judgment. 
#55
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen


And neither has this >>>>>>>>>>>Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
The same way you saw Him go into heaven? He went into heaven, "and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight." What is the significance of a cloud? I explained that to you in Post 46. Just as the Father came in judgment, so also was the Son coming in like manner. Clouds symbolize God's judgment. Clouds also symbolize the presence of God. 

***

Here it is again:

And it will roar against it on that day like the roaring of the sea. If one looks across to the land, behold, there is darkness and distress; Even the light is darkened by its clouds.

“Behold, he goes up like clouds, And his chariots like the whirlwind; His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are ruined!”

For the day is near, Indeed, the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, A time of doom for the nations.

A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations.

The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, And the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. In the gale and the storm is His way, And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.

That day is a day of anger, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness,

NT:

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

He comes in the glory of the Father (exactly how the Father made His presences known in the OT), and He comes in judgment with great power as the Father came in judgment in the OT. And God never gave His glory to another, which means Jesus and the Father share the same glory. This can be backed up with many verses.

And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

The Son of Man coming as with the presences of God, with the clouds. 

As many of these high and mighty, holier than thou twats, often  do, he must have thought me far too stupid not to have ever heard of, never mind  read the works of Yosef ben Matityahu, aka Jewish historian Flavius Josephus for myself. 
Yeah, right. More ad hominems when you can't respond with a cogent argument and counter. 


Can it get anymore laughable

No. It can't, Brother.
It's come to this, has it? Tag team. When you have nothing constructive to say, attack the man. I was hoping for better. 

#56
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
But YOU!  In typical fashion of the theist caught on the backfoot , you have ignored what these scriptures actually state.

LOOK>> “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened “Matthew24:25-34.
Mark13:26-30 says the same as does Luke21:27-32.
I will ask you again, how long is a generation? Does the Bible tell us?

***

All three passages you gave are Jesus' Olivet Discourse as recorded by Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I want your take on each verse of Matthews version, as I have recorded here:

Matthew 24:25-34 (NASB)
25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man [a]be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the [b]vultures will gather.
The Glorious Return
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His [c]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, [d]recognize that [e]He is near, right at the [f]door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


Who did Jesus tell in advance?
Verse 28, what OT Scripture does that verse refer to?
What do the words, "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken" mean? 
Who does the pronoun "you" refer to in the context?
Tribulation of what days? What days do "those" refer to?
What tribes of the earth is Jesus referring to? 
What does the fig tree refer to? 

***

Here are the other verses you noted:

Mark 13:26-30 (NASB)
26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His [a]elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.
28 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So you too, when you see these things happening, [b]recognize that [c]He is near, right at the [d]door. 30 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

What generation is Jesus referring to?   

***

Luke 21:27-32 (NASB)
27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
29 And He told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees: 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. 31 So you too, when you see these things happening, [a]recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

Whose heads were Jesus instructing to lift? 
Remember in Mark 11, Jesus cursed the fig tree? What does the fig tree represent?

#57
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
Continue, Post 52

Peter was challenged wasn't he?  But he had no explanation for the no show did he,?
Of course, he did. 

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?

It wasn't a no-show. It was a perceived no-show by the mocker. Peter explains that God is not slow in coming but wants none of the elect to perish. Thus, the time had not yet reached its fulfillment; the Jews had not yet filled up the FULL measure of their sins.  

Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.


So instead just like you he swerved the problem with bullshit : lets see what they said and  Peter's weasley reply.

They asked;
“Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”2Peter 3:4

Yet even allowing for all those Jews alive at the time of the promise and living another hundred + years, Jesus simply failed to show and keep his promise. They didn't ask because he had returned, did they you fool.   They asked because he hadn't!       And everything went on the same. 
Of course, He did. You fail to understand the nature of His coming. It was not a physical coming; simple as that.  

What was Peter's BS response to them:


8 " But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day".

Odd it is that Jesus forgot to mention this thousand years when he promised the generation living at the time of the promise.
Yes, now supply the rest of the context instead of collapsing it and taking it out of its context:

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [c]its works will be [d]discovered.

13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Peter explains just fine.

What do the new heavens and new earth represent? Do you know? Do you have the foggiest idea? 

God was giving His elect time to come to repentance before He judged the nation. The problem with your interpretive efforts is that they only go as far as you want the reader to see to feed your narrative but leave the narrative short of the full explanation. 

John the Baptist understood the soon coming judgment, as did Jesus. He spoke extensively on the subject. 

Matthew 3 (NASB)
The Preaching of John the Baptist
3 Now in those days John the Baptist *[a]came, [b]preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven [c]is at hand.” 3 For this is the one referred to [d]by Isaiah the prophet when he said,
“The voice of one [e]calling [f]out in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way of the Lord,
Make His paths straight!’”

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for [h]baptism, he said to them, “You [i]offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance; 9 and do not assume that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you that God is able, from these stones, to raise up children for Abraham. 10 And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore, every tree that does not bear good fruit is being cut down and thrown into the fire.

Judgment was coming soon. The axe was already at the root of the trees. Jesus cursed the fig tree. It would not produce fruit in keeping with repentance. Thus it would never bear fruit again. That covenant of works would come to an end. The heaven and earth they knew of would come to an end, and a new covenant was already in the making with the coming of the Messiah, where He lived for around 30 years. 

Odd then isn't it that Jesus forgot to mention they wouldn't pass away because they would all live for another thousand years before they all witnessed his return. 
Where do you get that misinterpretation from???

No matter how many verses you post here, trying to tell us that Jesus did return  , they won't alter what the scriptures actually state  and only go further to shown your BS is full of holes.
I learned a long time again that you can't convince someone against their will, but what I can do is demonstrate to others the futility of your thinking regarding Scripture. 

And this is all before we even get on to what all this is supposed to mean in the "ancient Greek language" that you Christians always rely on for another BS excuse for the scriptures failings.

Christians are too dumb to realise that every time they pull out the Greek card, that they render the whole of the Christian bible written in English obsolete and useless as  any kind of theological authority. 
You have not learned the principles of sound hermeneutics, thus all your blunders of interpretation. I ask you questions that you cannot answer; just silent!  



Topic's author
#58
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@PGA2.0
The same way you saw Him go into heaven? He went into heaven, "and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight.

And hasn't returned and you haven't proven that he did , So please change your boring record. And millions of Christians do not agree with you. 


#59
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
The same way you saw Him go into heaven? He went into heaven, "and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight.

And hasn't returned and you haven't proven that he did , So please change your boring record. And millions of Christians do not agree with you. 
You are very disingenuous here. You set up a thread, tell everyone that Jesus was a no-show, then, when refuted, provide these one-liners with little proof. 

I showed how you mistook 2 Peter 3. You claimed Peter was teaching a no-show. I showed that from the text, your claim was invalid. 

With Matthew 16:27-28, I showed that Jesus was coming in the glory of the Father. I asked you to show me how the Father's glory was manifest in the OT. A no-show by you. I broke the verse into its components, the glory of the Father, the recompense for the people's deeds, and the statement that some there would not taste death until they saw Him [Jesus] coming in His kingdom. How did Jesus come into His kingdom? Was that something they could see here on earth? Or, rather, was it something they understood when the judgment took place, just as Christ said it would. Then they would understand He was seated at the right hand of power in heaven. I even explained to you that Jesus said His kingdom was not a physical kingdom, not of this world, although His followers lived in this world until physical death. I explained that Jesus taught that a believer must be born again to either SEE or enter His kingdom. The point is, how do you see a spiritual kingdom?

Here are the definitions of SEE:
1a: to perceive by the eye
b: to perceive or detect as if by sight
2a: to be aware of: RECOGNIZEsees only our faults
b: to imagine as a possibility: SUPPOSEcouldn't see him as a crook
c: to form a mental picture of: VISUALIZEcan still see her as she was years ago
d: to perceive the meaning or importance of: UNDERSTAND
3a: to come to know: DISCOVER
b: to be the setting or time of The last fifty years have seen a sweeping revolution in science …— Barry Commoner
c: to have experience of: UNDERGO see army service
4a: EXAMINE, WATCH want to see how she handles the problem
b(1): READ
(2): to read of
c: to attend as a spectator see a play
5a: to make sure See that order is kept.
b: to take care of: provide for had enough money to see us through
6a: to find acceptable or attractive can't understand what he sees in her
b: to regard as: JUDGE
c: to prefer to have I'll see him hanged first. I'll see you dead before I accept your terms.
7a: to call on: VISIT
b(1): to keep company with especially in courtship or dating had been seeing each other for a year
(2): to grant an interview to RECEIVE The president will see you now.
8: ACCOMPANY, ESCORT See the guests to the door.
9: to meet (a bet) in poker or to equal the bet of (a player): CALL

News for you, Stephen. It does not always mean physical sight. It can also mean to be aware of, to imagine as possible, to form a mental picture, perceive the meaning or importance of/UNDERSTAND, and come to know/DISCOVER,  examine/watch, judge. 

Second, how did Jesus go into heaven? He was taken up into a cloud, the Shekinah glory or presence of God (as I explained to you in the OT). That cloud hid Him from their sight. By cloud is how God appeared to Israel, as I detailed with various OT verses. The glory of God was present with Him, and Jesus said He would return in the same manner and glory. Did Israel see God when He appeared in His Shekinah glory? No, they felt the light of His presence. How can you see a Spirit?

A cloud took Him up out of their sight. In the same manner, he would appear again in a cloud of glory, the Shekinah glory cloud. They would sense His presence, the presence of God. 

Examine the transfiguration. 

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice from the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him!” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell [c]face down to the ground and were terrified.

Did they see the Father physically? They understood they were on holy ground, just like Moses in Exodus 3:5.

And notice the transfiguration of Jesus:

2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 

***

So, Stephen, you continue to speak about matters you have very little understanding of but want to make it appear that you do. You want to take everything literally when you think it benefits you, but you don't understand the context and greater context through its references. These passages are connected to OT teaching that you gloss over. Jesus speaks of what was written throughout Matthew. He said Scripture could not be broken. You break Scripture up when you do not understand the connections. The whole of Scripture is a tapestry all woven together. 

No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.

Topic's author
#60
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@PGA2.0
The same way you saw Him go into heaven? He went into heaven, "and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight.

And hasn't returned and you haven't proven that he did , So please change your boring record. And millions of Christians do not agree with you. 
You are very disingenuous here. You set up a thread, tell everyone that Jesus was a no-show, then, when refuted, provide these one-liners with little proof. 

Little proof of what.?

I haven't made the claim that he has already returned. That was YOU! sunshine.

I didn't make the claim to those people  living at the time of the promise that they will witness him/Jesus return on a cloud, either. 

Peter's verse about "scoffers" only comes years after the people started to wise up and ask where was Jesus. 

when refuted

"refute" means that you have shown proof.   But you haven't shown proof of anything that actually proves your claim. I have told you, pointing to ambiguous and unreliable verses from the same ambiguous and unreliable source does not amount to any kind of proof. 

There are millions of Christians still waiting for his return.  AND just like YOU, they too quote verses from the bible  that - according to them - point to Jesus' imminent return - that hasn't happened yet. 

Here is just one example of Christians believing Jesus' arrival is near . Notice how many pointless bible verses they too point to that profess his arrival  is imminent. 

Here's another that "refutes"  your claim

Shall I just keep posting Christian organisations the "refute" what you insist as already happened? 

The interesting thing about this conversation is that we agree on nearly everything.  I believe there is a great possibility that Jesus was alive and well in 70 AD.

You claim he definitely was and had returned from the dead to show himself at the fall of Jerusalem. 

 I don't believe he was raised from being deceased and physically dead after laying there stinking and rotting in his private rich friends tomb set in private grounds, for three days .
You believe as the bible claims in the miracle that Jesus rose from the dead after three days. ( And you nor the bible has ever explained who raised him)?