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@Benjamin
Free will is a necessity for responsibility.
"Free-Will" is incompatible with an "omnipotent" and "omniscient" "creator".
Antitheist AMA
Posts
Total:
351
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@3RU7AL
God's emotional state is irrelevant. Objective does not mean, "emotion-free".
ob·jec·tive | \ əb-ˈjek-tiv , äb- \Definition of objective(Entry 1 of 2)1a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations [LINK]
See the (Entry 1 of 2) in your link? That means the word can have more than one meaning.
Objective morality, in the simplest terms, is the belief that morality is universal, meaning that it isn't up for interpretation.
In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination). A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject.
Objective means bias free, not emotion free.
Please explain, "The concept of God's morality".
There are many philosophical interpretations of morality, but let's keep it simple. Morality is our belief about what is wrong and what is right when it comes to our behavior. God's morality then, is His belief about what is wrong and what is right when it comes to our behavior.
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@Theweakeredge
the god's actions in the bible do not align with the supposed characteristics of said god
The Bible uses human terms to describe their creator. No matter how hard they try that would always be the case. Also, remember that everything that happens is attributed to God - even the regular laws of physics. The correct stance to take would be that 1) We cannot understand God or 2) God has hidden his true motivations
Anti-theism is not the correct response. That would suppose that you consider the implications of his existence negative - including eternal life for humans.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
What do you mean by "corrupts"? Corruption is when something Good gains power and let his own interests go before the interests of those he is supposed to serve.
God was never created - he has no one he is supposed to serve and he, therefore, cannot be corrupted.
I assume you mean: "becomes evil", but the word you use confused me.
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@Benjamin
Wrong - the god that the bible claims to exist does not exist, even if we were to believe the claim that a god exists, because a) It's characteristics are contradicting (one cannot be all-merciful and all justice the two contradict the most two words can), and two because the actions of the god do not align with that. You would have demonstrated that the god had hidden intentions to prove that that god existed, not the other way around. Wrong again, you do not need to be created to be corrupted, you are assuming things about creation, as long as it is an agent with a consciousness then it can be corrupted, that's how corruption works.
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@Theweakeredge
(one cannot be all-merciful and all justice the two contradict the most two words can)
How?
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@ethang5
Justice is defined as being - "Just behavior or treatment."
The biblical definition of mercy, or at least the merciful that the god of the bible is - is to not punish the sinners who are fundamentally evil - if god is all justice, or he has to always be just then he can definitionally not be merciful. If that wasn't this specific context, it wouldn't necessarily be true, but because of the absolutes that are used to justify the actions of god, they are contradictory.
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@Theweakeredge
Wrong - the god that the bible claims to exist does not exist
Rather - the bible is conflicted about the nature of its God. That would make perfect sense given how pragmatic and non-intellectual the book and the characters are.
It's characteristics are contradicting
Come on - in the Bible God is depicted as a burning flame, it's obvious that no word can describe him coherently, concisely, and consistently. We just use different models for his different sides. We do the same in physics: is light a particle or a wave? Those two words are inherently contradictory - but both are true, or close to true with regards to our understanding.
So yes - he might be contradictory described but that does not rule out his existence
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@Benjamin
Something which is entirely certain properties, and those properties are logically contradicting, then those properties can not logically exist, therefore the god that the bible describes does not exist according to the bible itself. I am more interested in a realistic potential god which would be almost definitionally corrupted and evil, not to mention, yes there is countless evil in the world, and saying, "oh but humans caused that" does not mean that a powerful being would not be morally obligated to help. If said being did exist and our current world continued, then that god would be morally wrong, hence my position.
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@ethang5
God's morality then, is His belief about what is wrong and what is right when it comes to our behavior.
How do you know "the mind of god"?
More specifically,
What does your god want me to do?
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@ethang5
Objective means bias free, not emotion free.
Are you familiar with "sample bias"?
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@Benjamin
The Bible uses human terms to describe their creator. No matter how hard they try that would always be the case.
SO, "YHWH" IS "INDESCRIBABLE".
Also, remember that everything that happens is attributed to God - even the regular laws of physics.
HUMANS ARE "GOD PUPPETS".
The correct stance to take would be that 1) We cannot understand God or 2) God has hidden his true motivations
BINGO.
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@Theweakeredge
"oh but humans caused that" does not mean that a powerful being would not be morally obligated to help.
In the same way a human would be expected to throw a rope to someone who was drowning.
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@Benjamin
it's obvious that no word can describe him coherently, concisely, and consistently.
UNKNOWABLE AND INDESCRIBABLE.
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@3RU7AL
Essentially, though on a larger scale, as it would take nothing of a such a powerful being to help, thus, as corny as it might sound - with power comes responsibility, and what isn't said is that the more power you have the more responsibility you have.
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@Theweakeredge
the more power you have the more responsibility you have.
Well stated.
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@3RU7AL
@Theweakeredge
The biblical definition of mercy, or at least the merciful that the god of the bible is - is to not punish the sinners who are fundamentally evil
Proverbs 11:21 - Assuredly, the evil man will not go unpunished, But the descendants of the righteous will be delivered.
I keep telling you that you don't know Christianity, but your ego fools you into believing I'm trying to insult you. I'm not. You haven't a clue of what you're rejecting.
God's morality then, is His belief about what is wrong and what is right when it comes to our behavior.
How do you know "the mind of god"?
I do not know the "mind" of God. I only know what He tells me.
More specifically,
What does your god want me to do?
I'm not His prophet. But why would He want you to do anything? It seems to me you are the one who would want Him the do something. God is not deaf or mute, if you think He wants you to do something, ask Him.
Essentially, though on a larger scale, as it would take nothing of a such a powerful being to help, thus, as corny as it might sound - with power comes responsibility, and what isn't said is that the more power you have the more responsibility you have.
With responsibility comes authority. Do you respect God? Obey Him? Believe Him? Why in the world should God throw you a rope? What makes Him responsible for you? Especially as you have shown Him no respect or consideration?
God is not your genie, or your servant, or your dad.
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@ethang5
No. but if the god of the bible existed they would have a moral obligation to help all of humanity, regardless of who caused the harm. Does a parent let their child be run over because, "they didn't listen" or, "they choose their fate!" no, hell no, fuck the kid's "free-will" you care more about the kid then their choice to run into the street.
No. but if the god of the bible existed they would have a moral obligation to help all of humanity, regardless of who caused the harm.
Sez who? Why should I believe this? How can God be obligated? And whose morality is God obligated to?
Does a parent let their child be run over because, "they didn't listen" or, "they choose their fate!" no, hell no, fuck the kid's "free-will" you care more about the kid then their choice to run into the street.
But God isn't your parent. You aren't His child. What you want is a Genie God who only serves you, while you have no obligation to Him at all. God isn't a chump either.
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@ethang5
Incorrect... god says
"John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"
So even if I grant that claim, that means that no christian should be harmed... as they are all children of god... also, okay.. a random child ran into the middle of the street. Someone can stop the child from being harmed without any danger to them, I suppose you think you should just let them die because, "they choose to."
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@Theweakeredge
Incorrect... god says
"John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"So even if I grant that claim, that means that no christian should be harmed...
How do you get to that conclusion? And how does this verse make me incorrect?
...they are all children of god... also, okay.. a random child ran into the middle of the street. Someone can stop the child from being harmed without any danger to them, I suppose you think you should just let them die because, "they choose to."
Your point seems to have morphed. I haven't a clue why you think Christian should not suffer or be subject to the laws of nature. God's goal is bigger than our short lives here. That verse doesn't support your conclusion.
Romans 5: 3 - 5
3. And not only so, but we glory in suffering also: knowing that suffering produces patience;
4. And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope makes us not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us.
Who told you that Christian doctrine says Christians shouldn't suffer?
You are looking at the death of a child like a human restrained by death. To God, death is reversable and not an end. The only reason you think God should stop suffering is because..... you think He should. So what? Why should God be subject to what you think?
1 Peter 2:20-21
20 ....But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
We are not greater than our Master. He suffered, and we will suffer too.
I'll tell you again. You don't know what Christianity is. What you now know is a mish-mash of gibberish gleened from atheist websites and internet loons. You are free to reject Christianity, but shouldn't you know what you are rejecting?
Jde 1:10 - But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
Jde 1:11 - Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Jde 1:12 - These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
Jde 1:13 - raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
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@ethang5
You should want to suffer...
yeah that doesn't sound like an abusive spouse at all.. as someone who's starting to study pyschology, all of these scream red flags of a toxic relationship to me... as in, the checklist we have to learn about... this checks all the parameters..
If I had to come up with the archetype of abusive relationship, this is the one I would choose without a doubt.
Furthermore you said, "Incorrect god says" and then quoted the quote I already quoted which is directly from the bible... so then that was just filler because you didn't know what you were talking about. Nothing about this point morphs, all it says is that god has a moral obligation to help any of his children just as a parent would, regardless if it was the fault of the child. I don't care what the bible says, I'm talking about proper ethics.
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@Theweakeredge
You should want to suffer...yeah that doesn't sound like an abusive spouse at all.. as someone who's starting to study pyschology, all of these scream red flags of a toxic relationship to me... as in, the checklist we have to learn about... this checks all the parameters..IfI had to come up with the archetype of abusive relationship, this is the one I would choose without a doubt.
You keep chasing a life free of suffering and you will suffer more. Nothing worthwhile in life is achieved without suffering.
But I don't subscribe to the morality of suffering, where the greatest evil is suffering because that makes the greatest virtue pleasure. And I know neither is true.
Furthermore you said, "Incorrect god says"...
You said that. I was quoting you.
...all it says is that god has a moral obligation to help any of his children just as a parent would, regardless if it was the fault of the child.
"It" may be your claim, but it certainly isn't the verse, because the verse doesn't say that.
And I asked you
1. Whose morality is God obligated to? You didn't answer.
2. I said God isn't your parent. You failed to address that.
3. I said you are not His child. You dodged that...
And simply returned with your lame, unsupported claims. This is a debate liberal. You must address the rebuttals or they stand.
...I don't care what the bible says, I'm talking about proper ethics.
Funny that you quoted the Bible then. You're telling us your opinions and expecting God to abide by them. The same God you feel you have no obligation to, is the one you think should be obligated to your whims. Good luck with that.
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@ethang5
What does your god want me to do?I'm not His prophet. But why would He want you to do anything?
Why on earth do you keep talking about it then?
It seems like you want me to follow some set of rules.
Fine, what rules?
Oh, these rules in an old book that don't make any sense.
Wait, you say they make sense if you interpret them correctly?
Please interpret them correctly for me.
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@ethang5
But God isn't your parent. You aren't His child.
Great point.
Compared to "YHWH" we're more like worms.
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@ethang5
No...this is saying, IF god is a moral creature, THEN that god has a moral obligation to help those that they are able too. IF you can do so without any consequent to yourself, THEN you ought to eliminate all evil.
This is a question of ethics, and god does not fulfill that burden.
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@3RU7AL
What does your god want me to do?
I'm not His prophet. But why would He want you to do anything?
Why on earth do you keep talking about it then?
I haven't a clue what you're babbling about. Check our exchanges, it is you who almost always brings up God.
If you don't want to debate, fine, but stop asking me questions when you won't answer mine. No one is here to be interrogated or lectured to by you.
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@Theweakeredge
No...this is saying, IF god is a moral creature,
God is not a creature. Your first premise is false.
THEN that god has a moral obligation to help those that they are able too.
This is opinonly an opinion, and even then, an opinion which applies to only humans. Except for faith, there is no reason we need accept this as true.
IF you can do so without any consequent to yourself, THEN you ought to eliminate all evil.
This is again only bald assertion, but there is consequence to God, that is why He is ridding the universe of evil in a JUST way, and not as a despot.
This is a question of ethics, and god does not fulfill that burden.
Your burden is illogical and self serving, but you're right, God ignores it, as He should. You actually think God must observe and be beholden to, some silly code of His creation!
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@ethang5
I'm not His prophet.
Who speaks for your "YHWH"?
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@ethang5
Do you, personally believe it is a moral good to stand by a drowning person and watch them drown without assisting them?
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@3RU7AL
Sorry Festus. Everytime I pin you down with questions you can't (or won't) answer, you run away to other questions. I'm not here for an interrogation. Answer my questions or your questions get dumped.