Antitheist AMA

Author: Theweakeredge

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#331
ethang5
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@3RU7AL
IF he made humans with inherent value, THEN he is necessarily obligated to protect them.
Sound logic.
There is no logic there. It is simply a bald opinion. Can you show how the conclusion flows from the premise? Can you show your premise true? Can you tell us what "value" means?

I needed no options. He said God made evil. God did not make evil. I told him so.

Who made evil?
Your question was dismissed.

(IFF) you stick with your "shadow" analogy (THEN) whoever made "light" also made "shadow" at the exact same time.
Who made light?
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#332
Theweakeredge
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@ethang5
Whose moral system am I using? Gods ironically - its a simple logical statement - very basic - IF something has value THEN you have obligations to it. According to the bible god made us with value, perhaps less than himself, but value nonetheless, and that value was moral in nature therefore: IF god made us with inherent value, THEN he has a moral obligation to protect us. I'm surprise someone as "logical" as you don't understand such a simple ethical concept. Protect from anything - protect from himself, all of the above. He would have a moral obligation to human kind. One that he does not fulfill according to the bible. As for the next response "are you a robot or do you have free will" Incorrect - to god - we do not. You see, according to the bible - god is on another plane from us - he knows everything, he knows what will happen he knows every "choice" we will make before we make it, therefore if he choose to make us one way that then that would lead to certain "choices" and if he made us another way it would lead to different "choices" God would have all of the control, so no, if you believe in the biblical god - you do not have free-will from god. God made adam and eve knowing for an absolute fact that they would disobey him, because he made them ignorant and curious.... but also, BECAUSE HE CAN QUITE LITERALLY SEE THE FUTURE. Evil is something which happens to material, thus if there is no material there is no evil - though if we keep with your light and shade example: photons are material, and shade is simple something blocking the photons before they get to their destination - evil is the actual opposite of evil, another force, not simply the absense of god - therefore that is a false analogy. "That's gibberish" cool story, give me a proper rebbutal.
#333
ethang5
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@Theweakeredge
Whose moral system am I using? Gods ironically
Did He give it to you via dreams?

- its a simple logical statement - very basic - IF something has value THEN you have obligations to it.
Nonsense. Value to whom? What is value? What makes this statement true? And here is the big one for you to dodge, doesGod have value to you?

According to the bible god made us with value, perhaps less than himself, but value nonetheless, and that value was moral in nature therefore: IF god made us with inherent value, THEN he has a moral obligation to protect us.
Nice try, but your conclusion still does not logically flow from your premise. You just say, "therefore". Saying If, then, does not a logical argument make. Show me the verse where it says we were made with value. Then give me the logical sequence that shows that value obligates God to us.

I'm surprise someone as "logical" as you don't understand such a simple ethical concept.
I understand it fine, which is why I can call it illogical. You leap from your unproven premise to your conclusion with no logic in-between.

Protect from anything - protect from himself, all of the above.
Lol. So in your view,  has God has a moral obligation to protect us from Himself. Ok.

He would have a moral obligation to human kind. One that he does not fulfill according to the bible.
The same Bible he inspired into existence right?

As for the next response "are you a robot or do you have free will" Incorrect - to god - we do not. You see, according to the bible - god is on another plane from us - he knows everything, he knows what will happen he knows every "choice" we will make before we make it, therefore if he choose to make us one way that then that would lead to certain "choices" and if he made us another way it would lead to different "choices" God would have all of the control, so no, if you believe in the biblical god - you do not have free-will from god.
Yet my Bible tells me that God has given us free will. Free will can only come from God. Should I take it then that your post to me does not express what you freely think?

God made adam and eve knowing for an absolute fact that they would disobey him, because he made them ignorant and curious.... but also, BECAUSE HE CAN QUITE LITERALLY SEE THE FUTURE. 
Knowing the future is not the same as making the future. Knowing what choice I would make does not mean He made that choice for me. I have never understood why this simple thing trips up otherwise smart people.

Evil is something which happens to material, thus if there is no material there is no evil
Lol. A rock can experience evil? What if there are only minds, can there still be evil?

- though if we keep with your light and shade example: photons are material, and shade is simple something blocking the photons before they get to their destination - evil is the actual opposite of evil, another force, not simply the absense of god - therefore that is a false analogy. "That's gibberish" cool story, give me a proper rebbutal.
ROFL! "..evil is the actual opposite of evil". I doubt if there is a rebuttal stupid enough for you to accept. You're a good bloke weak, but you're way out of your league. 
#334
3RU7AL
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@ethang5
(IFF) you stick with your "shadow" analogy (THEN) whoever made "light" also made "shadow" at the exact same time.
Who made light?
THE "OMNISCIENT" "OMNIPOTENT" "CREATOR".
#335
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@3RU7AL
Why are you using quotes?
#336
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@janesix
 I don't even think that's a real thing, more like something someone made up. 
It is. And people regurgitate it because it sounds good to sloppy thinkers. 
#337
fauxlaw
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This idea of God's omnipotence is a joke from this perspective; Y'all think because God is omnipotent, he can only act omnipotently all the time. That's the joke. Must he always act with all his power to accomplish anything? No. Case in point: does God create imperfect things? Yes, us. other stuff, too. Everything around us. Is a tree perfect? There are plenty that are not. there are plenty of us [all of us, frankly] that are not perfect. How can God be omnipotent and create imperfect things? I can, with instruments, draw a perfect square. Do I always draw perfect squares? Must I always draw perfect squares? No, and no. Must God? No. Does God acting imperfectly mean he is not perfect? No. He acts perfectly when needed, but if not needed, or if there is purpose in creating imperfect things, so be it. This all or nothing crap is just that.
#338
fauxlaw
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Re: my #337 post above, here's an example from my own experience in manufacturing. I was, for a time, a packaging designer. I designed a polystyrene threaded, two-piece clamshell for a plastic printwheel when we used such things before laser printing. My design was given to a toolmaker. All my dimensions had nominals plus tolerances, typically ± .005. Tolerances are given for a reason; because we do not expect every nominal to be hit on target, but there must be limits on sloppiness. However, in this case, the toolmaker hit ever dimension exactly on nominal. That should have been a cause for celebration, but, it turned out the design was flawed [mine] because every dimension made perfectly resulted in the two pieces of the clamshell, when closed, to create a virtual hermetic seal. When newly molded printwheels were immediately packaged in the clamshell, the outgassing that all plastic parts exhibit could not exhaust properly, and they warped. We had to have the toolmaker spoil his perfect tool, but it made for acceptable parts in their function. Sometimes, imperfection is practical.
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#339
Theweakeredge
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@fauxlaw
IF god is perfect than anything he does is the best it could be with no room for improvement THEN humans should be the best they could be with no room for improvement

It is not the claim that he is omnipotent which causes this problem it is the Judeo Christian god's "perfectness" which causes this.
#340
fauxlaw
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@Theweakeredge
The purpose of creation is not that everything created be perfect as created, but that it becomes perfect by effort.
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#341
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@fauxlaw
thats not how a god which is perfect behaves. Else that god isn't perfect. 
#342
fauxlaw
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@Theweakeredge
Not how a god behaves? What better creation than one that can improve itself by its own choices to become perfect itself? Did you ever consider that it is our ultimate destiny to become perfect gods, ourselves? Why not? What child should not desire to one day become like its father and mother?
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#343
Theweakeredge
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@fauxlaw
Do you have any evidence to support that claim? Regardless - IF something is perfect THEN everything they do is the best it could possibly be

Would you like to demonstrate that all of creation is the best it could possibly be? 
#344
fauxlaw
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@Theweakeredge
Would you like to demonstrate that all of creation is the best it could possibly be? 
You have entirely missed my point. We are imperfect so that we, ourselves, make ourselves perfect by our own choices and efforts, not because God should have made us that way in the first place.

What proof have I of that? "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5: 48. "This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Moses 1: 39
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#345
Theweakeredge
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@fauxlaw
So you have a book passage... verify that, please. Also, what of the people who will be in hell? They do not make themselves perfect.
#346
fauxlaw
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@Theweakeredge
verify that, please.
There's a formula: A + B + C + D + E + F = knowledge of truth, found in Moroni 10; 4, 5
What are the elements of the formula?
A = read/study
B = ask God, the Eternal Father
C = ask in the name of Christ
D = have a sincere heart
E = have real intent to want to know
F = have faith in Christ that an answer will be given
the sum equals knowledge of the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost, by which the truth of all things can be known

That's the verification. Must touch all bases. Must include all elements, or the conclusion is not reached. Doubt is not there. Don't.

Also, what of the people who will be in hell?
The people in hell will have denied their right to obtain the truth and act on it. They have limited themselves from perfection. Like I said, it's a matter of choice, like choosing to not use all elements of the formula given to know what is true.
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#347
Theweakeredge
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@fauxlaw
Um... I had doubt, because I did all of those things (and more, I was a youth leader), but yet I never heard him once. I also felt doubt for a couple other reasons; one the bigger ones was the treatment of homosexuals by the bible and Christians, not to mention how a rapist who simply repented before they died would go to heaven yet a geniunely good person who didn't believe went to hell. Those aren't why I don't believe in god, but they caused me to doubt the dogma, and its never to late to question the dogma of religion.
#348
fauxlaw
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@Theweakeredge
a rapist who simply repented before they died would go to heaven
simple repentance? Do you really think the confessional is a rotating door; you simply go in, say you're sorry, and all is forgiven so you can revolve right back out and do it again, and repeat that cycle until death, and we really call that repentance? Or, in the rapist's case, goes in once, and it's effective? NO that is not repentance, that's just a revolving door.
And I don't believe one needs a priest, anyway. Why do I need any other mortal as my conduit to God and to Christ? Confess to God. Confess to those we wrong, and work to the best of our ability to resolve the wrong with that person, compensate by however possible, even if that amounts to nothing but sincere remorse, and a conviction to not repeat it again. THAT's repentance, and the rapist on the deathbed cannot do all that. Sorry, but "I'm sorry" is just the start of repentance, and worthless at that if not sincere. Come on, you know this, deep down. God does too, and is not going to give that guy a pass. 
I've never heard God speak with my ears, either. I don't expect that. He speaks to my heart, and that burning thrill passes throughout my body. It's the best feeling in the world, feeling totally enlightened. That's the Holy Ghost speaking. If you've felt that before, exercise it. If you have not, exercise until you've proven to God that you want and need answers, and that you will pursue it, committed, until you do. Then, repeat, because there's an awful lot to know, after all.

Nor do I believe there are just two kingdoms, heaven and hell. I think heaven is many kingdoms, each accommodating the wide variety of people there are. Some will live with God in his kingdom, others will live in glorified kingdoms, at least better than earth, but not as good as with God, and will house people of relative goodness, and some partially bad, but not truly evil. I believe their are kingdoms that have neither God nor Satan in them. Hell is total darkness, for truly evil, despicable people.
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#349
Theweakeredge
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@fauxlaw
It says.. in the bible if you repent, as in, accept Jesus as your lord and savior and that you have sinned, then you go to heaven. Its that simple. As long as its geniune. I don't think that just - repentance is not worth the same morally as someone's bodily autonomy, whether that abuse of bodily autonoomy be rape, murder, etc.
#350
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@Theweakeredge
Are you saying that repentance is just saying "I'm sorry," and nothing else? If so, you have not read enough.
What, just accept Jesus, admit that you've sinned, and that's it? Once? What do you think "take up your cross and follow me" means? You think Jesus meant we should pick up a cross, drag it around for a while, and that's it? I think Jesus did a little more than just drag it around. He endured on it to his end, didn't he? He suffered and bled to his mortal end, didn't he? While living on earth, he carried it. We didn't see it, but it was there, haunting him. Yet he endured, suffered to the end. And you think you can just acknowledge the Christ, say "Im sorry," and that's it? God in heaven, that's not it! He doesn't even ask you to bleed. HE did that for us. But it's not "I'm sorry," and then "I'm saved in heaven's bliss, regardless of what I do now." We only get to say that after we have endured to our end of mortality. It's a full test, not a quiz. It's a life-long struggle, not a walk in the park and "Jesus loves me" that's going to get us there. Don't we have to do a lot of loving of one another, too? Sometimes, that hurts to do, but isn 't that "taking up our cross?"
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#351
Theweakeredge
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@fauxlaw
The bible says to accept Jesus as your lord and savior and repent and then you go to heaven, anything else is your own faulty interpretation. Have fun being self-rigtheous.