XMAS MAFIA - END GAME

Author: Danielle

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#91
Lunatic
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@drafterman
We had a boat load of realistic fake claims, so I wasn't entirely too worried about being pressured. Part of the reason Mafia shouldn't be given fake claims.
I kind of agree with you in principal here. However I still give fake claims anyway. My experience is that mafia tends to give up, or barely put effort into researching the theme and it's kind of depressing to watch your game end quickly for that reason. Though maybe the solution to that would be to just stop giving mafia fake claims, and making them work for a change and just deal with a lot of losses until they decide to stop being lazy. I also feel like they are more active when they have fake claims too.


#92
Bullish
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@Lunatic
Stop scum reading me in forum games
#93
drafterman
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@Lunatic
I basically just skated by the past two games as scum because I had to do 0 work. Supa didn't have a theme break and we were drowning in fake claims in this one. All I had to do was literally just not die.

I mean, in Supa's, I was practically begging town to lynch me and nothing happened.

Mafia inarguably has it too easy.
#94
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Anyway, I've already focused far too much on this and, as I result, I won't get through writing the RFD I had planned to finish tonight as is, so I'm just going to cut my losses and call it a night. Magic, you made the right calls, even if we disagree on the reasoning, so well done there. Feel free to heap more criticism of my usual play out there. Usually it comes from a place of being more constructive than this, but I always appreciate feedback.
#95
LikeMagic
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@Bullish
At the time you voted drafter the votecount on him was 1 (lunatic), the vote on whiteflame was 3 (yourself, me, and drafter). https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5360/post-links/231329

That1 had interest in voting whiteflame, we knew that, and she eventually did.

Water can probably be pressured into voting whiteflame, since he was one of the alternative wagons at the time.
As of 2:30pm (2 hrs before the end of the DP, I was the only vote). We needed 7 people.I do not know why you feel the need to rewrite history here. Waters wasn’t even online. The players online and their focuses were as follows:

  • oromagi who focused on waters, speed, and then supa
  • speed who was essentially calling my read idiotic and ultimately joined the supa pressure
  • supa who wanted to no lynch
  • MisterChris who was hard on Supa and was only present for the last 1-2 hours
  • drafterman who joined my wagon with about an hour left in the DP
  • You who joined my wagon though you started focusing on supa too
That1joined back in at 20 min til end of DP, initially voted Drafterman then at 9 min til end of DP switched to Whiteflame, which I immediately joined. Immediately after I re-voted whiteflame, YOU CHANGED YOUR VOTE TO WATER. You were then called out for swapping your vote, randomly claimed I derailed my own wagon, then you switched back to whiteflame with like 4 min left in the DP.

There were never 7 players willing to lynch Whiteflame. There were 4 and that is what we ended the DP with, at best, 5 with Supa. 
#96
Lunatic
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@Danielle
I understand your point, but I also think while she doesn't know his play style that could actually benefit her reads in a way because she wasn't thrown off by him behaving similarly as town in the past, and she hyperfocused on the fact that he was posting fluff. She focused on behavior from THIS game and not past "metas" which people have admitted skilled players can control and manipulate. Pie plays the same regardless of his affiliation. I also think I do a decent job playing to my town meta as scum.  So you're right that whitefame did spend a lot of time defending himself and not scum hunting (which you said made you unable to read him) but that was her whole point -- he was doing everything but scum hunting and that's why she read him the way she did.  
I think that is a double edged sword though right? I mean I have played in games plaenty of times where I was town but scum read the whole time. I had to spend so much time defending myself from scum reads that my actual reads tend to get over shadowed or not given their due credit. Two games I can use as an example here would be The office mafia, and Naruto Mafia. I spent most of DP1 in naruto mafia trying to defend myself, and the read I actually had on bearman (who was actually scum) got dismissed and underplayed because people thought I was scum. 

but you should give feedback if you think there is anything she can do to improve her arguments.
My only feedback I could give would be hypocritical, and that would be not to be so tunnel vision, but I myself was a bit tunnel vision on bullish. It didn't help that bullish just dismissed the majority of my argumens as "That's BS" without an actual response, and then continue to focus on the "3rd party" thing which wasn't extremely relevant to why I scum read him in the first place.

ps. You did NOT "trick" me into confirming there was no tailor lol. I went out of my way to confirm that all on my own in the OP! And then I was so absolutely, positively, categorically, unequivocally certain I wanted everyone to know there was no tailor that I reiterated it when you asked  even though I said I wouldn't answer questions publicly
By proxy you admitted there wasn't an OP tailoring role, which was really what I was concerned about. If you don't feel like you were tricked and intended us to know that, that is fine. I did the same thing in your riddle mafia when I publicly asked you in the mason thread if mason would die by recruiting scum, and you answered. That confirmed to me that magic couldn't be scum since it would be bastard modding to give information like that if she was scum. Maybe tricking you wasn't the right word choice, but cleverly phrasing something to get a satifactory mod confirmed answer.
#97
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I scumread white for nearly the same reasons magic did, but the problem here is that we both didn't know his forum meta.

I always scum read people for saying things like:

"it could be A, but it could also not be A"

or

"Player could town, but I might be wrong"

because you just said nothing. But apparently some people just have that irrational fear of being wrong in a damn forum game.
#98
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@Bullish
Stop scum reading me in forum games
It was one time! Also I tend to town read open minded players more than closed off ones. In this case, my scum read on you was strengthened by the fact that you dismissed all of my arguments on you with a quick comment of "Thats BS!"

Sounded like deflection and hoping not to answer anything. 
#99
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@drafterman
I basically just skated by the past two games as scum because I had to do 0 work. Supa didn't have a theme break and we were drowning in fake claims in this one. All I had to do was literally just not die. I mean, in Supa's, I was practically begging town to lynch me and nothing happened. Mafia inarguably has it too easy.

I agree mafia has it too easy, I suppose my worry usually is that without it being too easy they put little to no effort in. Maybe in my next game I will not give fake claims and encourage scum to research the theme. I prefer more balanced games, less role heavy with lots of vanillas, for example. Though my last few games have been crazy swingy games, because I perodically will poll the users and ask which they prefer, and most seem to say things like "I am more active when I have a power role". The worst is when you have a game that no one knows the theme of and so they are just bored and don't participate. Felt that way a bit with stormlight archives mafia. 
#100
Bullish
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@LikeMagic
When u switched votes whiteflame had more votes than drafter, that's a fact. you're tunneling against facts again, just like how you keep saying white never played scum when in fact he has.

"never had 7 votes" is defeatist thinking. When the day is near end and 1 player has 4 or 5 out of 7 votes, the momentum will carry null-reading players to vote for a lynch.
#101
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Even with less than 10 minutes left in the DP1, I was sweating that whiteflame was going to get lynched.
#102
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I too had problems in the past with convincing people to vote for a lynch. The solution is simply targeted harassment.
#103
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@drafterman
Even with less than 10 minutes left in the DP1, I was sweating that whiteflame was going to get lynched.
I was walking outside in 70 degree weather and I was sweating lol
#104
Bullish
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well it's not that simple
#105
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@whiteflame
I don't think I did flip flop on my position, and I explained that my position was to get a claim, not a lynch. You didn't accept that, but it doesn't make what I said a flip flop. Readily backing down is, and I mean this seriously, awfully common in my play. It's not something I'm proud of. I've also been pushed into posting a lot. Again, not something I'm proud of. As for logical inconsistencies, that's basically the majority of posts I've seen nailing someone as obviously town or obviously scum, especially in DP1. They're all based on pulling at straws, and yes, in many cases inconsistent with what that same person said earlier. I was not alone in logical inconsistencies.
YOU WERE SCUM. I am sorry for not accepting your explanation for your logical inconsistencies as scum? I don't know what you want from me. Logical inconsistency is a common scum tell. I am sorry I noticed it and didn't buy your scum motivated explanation. 


And yes, I did find it problematic that you were using the fact that I was away and had other things to do as yet another reason to scum read me. I'm sorry that I wasn't on to respond to you at 9 PM. It's fucking frustrating to have someone proclaiming that I'm somehow more guilty for having other things to do. You can say that it's just the cherry on top, but seriously, it was a bit much. And yes, I used the rest of my post to give my reads, weak and uninteresting though they are. Surprise, surprise, I'm still rather new to this, and don't produce the best reads early on. 
It is weird that you were annoyed and took it personal that a townie was building a case on you as scum. Again this wasn't a primary part of my argument, but it was valid. You came on, made a barely responsive post to my arguments, then disappeared immediately with no other posts, no scum hunting, no response to Bullish's reads, no response to the lunatic Bullish flamewar. That was scummy. Because again, scum is focused on not being read as scum as a primary goal, not investigating or hunting for scum. It is possible for a town to be absent in critical moments, so it would not be enough for me to lynch you, but was worth noting on top of my prior analysis. Maybe you really were fully inactive from the game during that period, but I would be curious if you were inactive in your scum PM through that whole period of time, before I would be willing to let go of the fact that it appeared you were trying to stay under the radar and let me scum read fizzle out (a good strategy by the way, so there's not reason to be offended by it). 


My blanket response to many of your bases for scum reading me was the same: this is how I play. You didn't want to accept that as an answer from me, Speed, Lunatic, or MisterChris, but that was the answer I gave. If I had been town in this game, I would have given you the same answer. You want to call it scummy? Fine, then I'd be scummy no matter what side I was on. If I had been town this game, you would have had the same amount of reason to lynch me because I would have behaved exactly the same through all of DP1 and most of DP2. You have 4 people telling you this. If you don't want to accept that at this stage, then I guess I should just expect for you to have a lynch called on me every game we play together. That's bound to be fun.
You just admitted you are new. So the fact that you think you played "as town" in your first game as scum is silly. You were scum, you had an informed perspective, a chat with two other scum buddies, fake claims, a motivation to avoid being lynched and avoid the lynch of your scum buddies as much as possible, a motive to avoid suspiscion, a motive to "appear town," and a motive to have mislynches. 

You kept pushing a scum read on waters, but wouldn't vote him. I am sure there was a scum motive for that. No matter what, at the end of the day you were scum, and therefore your behavior was scum. It is very hard and takes a lot of experience to remove all of the scum thoughts and motives from your play and play convincingly town as scum. I am certain I won't have a scum read on you in every game we play together because you won't be scum in every game. I am not sure why you are bothered and feel the need to undermine my scum read. When I have had a player scum read me I come into endgame and say , woah good read, nice play you had me nervous, so glad I was able to avoid a lynch in spite of you.

And I will say it one more time. Your play was logically inconsistent and demonstrated anti-town motives, that was the basis of my read. Not passivity. No one, lunatic, speed, or misterchris addressed this. They all were focused on the passivity aspect, which is why my read was unchanged from their input. The only reason I noticed your scum motivation was because I did an ISO on your posts. Nonetheless, it went undetected by 70% of town so its a good outcome for you. 

#106
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@drafterman
I wasn't paying full attention during that time, but when I saw what happened, I honestly was surprised I wasn't lynched.
#107
whiteflame
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@LikeMagic
Fine. You don't want to accept that the play I exhibited in this game is my normal play? That it's common for me to play this way as town? Guess that's up to you. I suspect we'll be at this point again in the next game we play together, and I suspect I'll be town then. Yes, being scum affects the way lots of people play. Maybe it affected mine, but clearly not so much that other people who have played with me many times noticed.

So, let's part ways with just saying that you figured something out that no one else saw. You brilliantly saw through something that I still don't think I was doing any different from my normal play. Either I'm scummy all the time, or I just can't read myself. You win.
#108
LikeMagic
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@Bullish
When u switched votes whiteflame had more votes than drafter, that's a fact. you're tunneling against facts again, just like how you keep saying white never played scum when in fact he has.

"never had 7 votes" is defeatist thinking. When the day is near end and 1 player has 4 or 5 out of 7 votes, the momentum will carry null-reading players to vote for a lynch.
There was no null leaning players except Supa. Everyone else had adamantly argued against my accurate read. I love how you're simultaneously accusing my accurate well articulated scum read of Whiteflame as "tunneling against facts," while simultaneously saying that the 30 minutes I had my vote off of him in the entire DP is the reason the scum, everyone mocked me for calling scum, wasn't lynched. Your arrogance and inclination to disrespect is fascinating. 

Again, That1 joined back into the DP at 30 min til end. She voted for White with 20 minutes remaining. I immediately brought my vote back to Whiteflame, which gave him the 4 votes for the first time in the entire DP. YOU THEN SWITCHED your vote to Water, potentially undermining any chance at momentum and creating suspicion of you and your motives. Not a single other vote was added to White after that. 
#109
drafterman
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To the discussion at hand, I was a bit taken aback when Lunatic came out of left field and started pressuring me here:


I thought I would have to do some quick thinking.

I wouldn't say that Magic derailed the wagon on me, it just collapsed. It never really had any cohesion to begin with.
#110
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@LikeMagic
Your arrogance and inclination to disrespect is fascinating. 
I would clarify someone saying that everyone except them deserves credit for the loss, falsely claiming 100% accurate reads, and then calling others assholes for disagreeing is arrogance and inclination to disrespect.

But I suppose an expert would be best in noticing it in others.
#111
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Honestly, the behavior in this end game is the very reason I do not partake in Mafia much.

Due to ego or whatever else, instead of coming into this game like Supa and That1 and being like holly shit you called it, wish we listened to you, the instinct is to try and demean and undermine me and invalidate my play to the extent it was successful at all. Hell you could even reflect and be like, maybe I would have listened to you if you have presented it X way and give me that note. Instead you just pretend I was baselessly tunneling, without skill, analysis, logic, or understanding. It is insane. 

Even scum, instead of being like damn Magic, you had me figured out, you had me nervous feels the need to diminish my play for whatever egotistical satisfaction it brings them in their play. 

I spent 90% of this game correctly targeting one/two of the three scum players, and yet I have been antagonized by nearly every player and blamed for your own unwillingness to consider my accurate reads. It is crazy. 
#112
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@LikeMagic
So you want me to lie to soothe your feelings? You called me scum, sure. But you didn’t have me scared because I could see that your abrasive tone was counter productive to turning those reads into lynches, and it’s lynches that count. I was scared when Lunatic pressured me because he can gain a following. And did.

You can’t expect a warm reception when you literally blame the loss on everyone but yourself and basically imply you were perfect and everyone else was shit for not listening to you.

What reason did you give people to listen to you?
#113
LikeMagic
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@drafterman
 would clarify someone saying that everyone except them deserves credit for the loss, falsely claiming 100% accurate reads, and then calling others assholes for disagreeing is arrogance and inclination to disrespect.

But I suppose an expert would be best in noticing it in others.
I did not play a role in the loss, objectively. I had no night actions, I did not screw up my claim. I made no errors in how i reported investigative informtion. Though simultaneously I have asked for constructive feedback on what I can do to better convince people of my reads in the future. I never said my reads were 100% accurate. I said my reads on you and whiteflame were accurate. Which they were. I conceded I probably would have never scum read pie, except for what happened at the end of DP2, which was clearly done because you all knew you won. I have also complimented whiteflame in staying under the radar of 70% of the players in the game. I called you an asshole for posting insulting and antagonistic memes to me, for literally no reason.

For some reason you are annoyed and taking it personal that I was able to scum read you, which is weird, unless you think you're perfect as scum. 
#114
Bullish
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@LikeMagic
maybe I would have listened to you if you have presented it X way and give me that note
I've told u twice in DP1 and now here in the endgame to not derail your own wagon and here you are refusing to even admit that taking your  vote off of white while white had the highest number of votes can be considered derailing. You get mad far more often than any other mafia player on the forum and in live. If someone's an asshole to you, they're an asshole. If everyone is an asshole to you, you're the asshole.
#115
drafterman
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@LikeMagic
As I said before, I’m not aware that it’s SOP to claim hated and it was your role that allowed us to win early. We were able to play as recklessly as we did because we knew your role. and you played a role in the loss by not being able to get support for your point of view. Reads mean nothing if you can’t turn them into lynches and you failed to do so. It is a positive requirement on your part, as an unconfirmed player, to convince people to lynch your scum reads.

Instead you called people assholes.

And you claimed 100% accurate reads here:

As a scum in this game, I’m perfectly happy with your play and was completely unphased by you scum reading me because you were unable to do anything with it. Not sure why you think I’m annoyed at that.
#116
Bullish
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@LikeMagic
and BTW I voted Water in the same minute that1 and yourself voted white, so at that time I was weighing 2 wagons that had the same number of votes. The moment I saw white had more votes I hopped on that wagon, which is exactly what I expect at least some other players to do, and more players would have done had white been at 4 votes for longer.
#117
LikeMagic
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@drafterman
So you want me to lie to soothe your feelings? You called me scum, sure. But you didn’t have me scared because I could see that your abrasive tone was counter productive to turning those reads into lynches, and it’s lynches that count. I was scared when Lunatic pressured me because he can gain a following. And did.

You can’t expect a warm reception when you literally blame the loss on everyone but yourself and basically imply you were perfect and everyone else was shit for not listening to you.
It is so transparent, you attempts to diminish and demean my play for whatever personal egotistical gain you think it is bringing you right now. "you didn't have me scared" please get over yourself.

What reason did you give people to listen to you?
I outlined my analysis clearly. I was no more aggressive or abrasive in my reads and arguments than Lunatic and Bullish. They were arguable more stubborn and incorrect. Yet, for some reason my arguments were met with dismissiveness.I was not solely willing to lunch White, I was hunting and investigating everyone, was willing to lynch you and willing to lynch myself strategically. So I was not irrationally tunneling as town and you seem inclined to imply. 

I have already asked for constructive feedback on how to more effectively argue in these games, yet you feel the need to belittle and demean my play and insult me along with numerous others in this thread and throughout the game.

I do not feel I am responsible for the loss, yet have asked for pointers on how to better argue my reads. I would challenge anyone to argue how I contributed to the loss and objectively had people listened to me, town would have won, so it is equally worthwhile for town to reflect on their own instincts and biases that made then uninterested in my accurate reads. 
#118
LikeMagic
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@drafterman
I called only you an asshole for insulting me and posting an antagonistic meme at me for no reason. Stop claiming I called everyone assholes. It is a lie. 
#119
drafterman
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@LikeMagic
It’s not ego to note that you did not, like you claim, make me nervous. You keep saying you want constructive feedback but are unwilling to even acknowledge that you might be wrong about something. Well, that’s the first step.

My second pointer to you would be to stop calling people assholes.
#120
LikeMagic
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@Bullish
I've told u twice in DP1 and now here in the endgame to not derail your own wagon and here you are refusing to even admit that taking your  vote off of white while white had the highest number of votes can be considered derailing. You get mad far more often than any other mafia player on the forum and in live. If someone's an asshole to you, they're an asshole. If everyone is an asshole to you, you're the asshole.
That is nonsense. People constantly tantrum our of this game and throw fits. Especially in live. I will not name names, but it is clearly a perception you are fabricating to justify your behavior and reaction to me. People constantly self kill themselves and do crazy shit in game when people just won't listen to them. It's a regular part of these games. I didn't do that. I just kept making the arguments, then I was met in endgame with multiple attempts to try and claim that though my reads were right I am still wrong, silly, nonsensical,  or otherwise lacking in quality or value.That said, I never said anyone was behaving as assholes. I called a single person an asshole.

I said that people's refusal to just simply acknowledge the accuracy of my reads and give any credit for them is a reflection of a problematic instinct that is worth reflecting on. I noted this while simultaneously seeking feedback on how to better argue my reads, and yet am am now being met by personal attacks from you, when I have made no personal attack against you.