XMAS MAFIA - END GAME

Author: Danielle

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#61
Lunatic
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@Danielle
SirAnonymous plays like 100x more annoyingly neutral than whiteflame, but this assessment was accurate. I think town is used to focusing more on theme like I said so they don't go after neutral comments as much as they should.  To be honest I remember whiteflame being more scum-hunty last game but in this game I wasn't paying close attention to reads. This ^ observation by Magic seems legit; the point about him not being online at 9pm though was not (I'm never really online at night when I'm not modding). 

Anyway going for realz now.  

On this same note though, the game didn't get to go long enough for whiteflame to behave in a way that would indicate if he would follow his previous agrresive style or not. His meta of wanting to be more stand offish and vtnl dp1 was consistent with his play from avatar for example. I even told magic that if whiteflame is scum, it will probably be easier to pick up on it later. I genuinely think tunneling him for the logic she did, made it ultimately harder to read whiteflame, since at that point he had to dedicate all his time to responding to analysis about his meta consistencies with someone who hasn't played in a single game with him lol. I think magic's tunnel vision on whiteflame actually made it HARDER to read whiteflame by proxy since we weren't analyzing natural responses and gameplay.
#62
Bullish
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@ILikePie5
I'm discussing with that1
#63
LikeMagic
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@Bullish
Magic u literally derailed your own wagon on white DP1
How so? I was the only vote on White up until 2hrs left in the DP. At like 1hr left Drafterman joined, then at some point you, but no one else online at the time was willing to join the lynch. Speed refused, Lunatic refused, MisterChris refused, as did Pie if Pie was active. I cannot remember. Luna then proposed a lynch of drafterman as a compromise, I joined that lynch at like less than 1 hr left in the DP. That1 then came in and proposed White and I ended the DP with my vote on white, where it had been for all but like 30-40 min. 
#64
drafterman
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@Bullish
Only when we chose to use ninja . We had a strongman that we didn't know was useless.
#65
ILikePie5
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@Bullish
Watch/tracker are useless cause of the ninja.
Still had me :(

Plus we had a Strongman with y’all just having a Ghoul, so it was pretty much useless
#66
whiteflame
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@MisterChris
Appreciate that. Would say that Pie and Draft did more to make this happen, but glad I could be part of it. First time on a scum team (only been a Lone Wolf and a Mime before) and I enjoyed it.
#67
MisterChris
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@whiteflame
LOL love that they threw lone wolf at ya when you were so new
#68
whiteflame
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@Danielle
Regarding whiteflame's play, I see both sides. Magic was 100% correct the way she assessed his play. However it's true that whiteflame tends to play that way most times. Just because he plays that way as town (so ya'll are right) doesn't mean it isn't scummy (so she is right). 
This is entirely accurate. I'm not professing to be a good player, and my play often leads to people being suspicious of me out the gate. It's something I'm still working on, and I don't think I've got the right balance at all yet. Magic, if you see it as sus, you're not alone, but you're also wrong that it was uniquely suspicious when it's absurdly common to my play. It's my meta, and whether it works or doesn't, it's what I use in every game.
#69
LikeMagic
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@Lunatic
Well congrats on being right, even if I believe at least as far as whiteflame goes, you were right for the wrong reasons. 

I refuse to take responsibility for the loss though, and I really think it's fvcked up that you insinuate that this is all my fault when I was willing to lynch scum with you dp1 on a mutal read. Also I don't appreciate that you continuosly say that I don't respect your reads, when I did the opposite. I said there was a valid reason for you to feel the way you did about whiteflame, because I pointed that out with danielle in a forum game as well where he was town, and elminster also read him recently for the same logic. Sure whiteflame was scum, but it wasn't for the reasons you mentioned. I am not closed minded, and take insult that you keep saying that. I responded to everything you said with a lot of detail and explained where I was at with everything. I wasn't just disagreeing with you for the sake of being contrarian, I hate when people do that, so why would I do it myself?
Thank you for the acknowledgment. Maybe this will earn my reads more cred in the future. 

I never said it was all your fault. There was a wealth of reasons, including my inability to convince people. As I have explained multiple times, my read was not limited to the behavior you all explained from prior games with White. For whatever reason, my reads and analysis tend to carry little weight in these games. I am sure that is in part a skill I should work on, but it is hard not to think it is some personal judgment you and others are making concerning the weight and value you believe my reads warrant. Having played with you a number of times, that is a bit frustrating to be screaming a fact (that turns out to be right, for all the reasons I came to the conclusion in the first place) with town being the main voices undermining me and writing me off as irrational (Speed and You in particular). When certain people are sure of their reads, those reads are accorded with more respect. If you have feedback for how I can improve my presentation to be afforded a similar level of respect, I would love to hear because it is useless to be right if you cannot get anyone to back you up. 
#70
whiteflame
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@MisterChris
Yep, and after I got outed, I panicked, as Lunatic said. Not my best play, but hey, we won that game.
#71
LikeMagic
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@drafterman
I predict Magic will scumread me for the next 10 games out of principle.
It is unlikely. I rarely EVER have strong scum reads. Like a once a year thing maybe. I am usually more reticent normally because I don't want to be wrong and screw up. I felt emboldened to really hunt this game and make my thoughts known because I truly thought I'd be lynched DP1 or DP2
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#72
Danielle
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@That1User
I thought Magic was gonna go hard for Speed actually had he lived past NP1. 

Watcher/Tracker could verify other people's roles (i.e. confirming Luna visited Magic) so they are not useless even with a Ninja who wouldn't necessarily be alive all game. They would also help find cult and such and catch people lying about the fake role claims I gave. 

Supa had protective abilities (could make himself BP or doc someone else) so that's what the Strongman was for. 

I just want to say that I've played in like 4 games with Water and I've scum read him in every single game, and in every single game he was town. I've scum read Water when I was scum and knew he wasn't scum. I've even scum read Water while I was MODDING and thought... am I tripping? Did I make him scum by accident? He's scum, right? That's happened twice lol. He is one of a kind. 

Btw Luna's role (Ghoul) is what I thought the HIDER was in the other game where I misunderstood my Hider role. The Ghoul is where you can pick someone and make them  your bodyguard. Apparently VIP is another name for it. 

Oh and @that1user you targeted MisterChris np2 which I thought was weird. Why not target Magic again? The standard caroler role makes you choose a different person each night, but I did not include that caveat. You should have picked someone you most read town and likely to live, which was Magic obviously. Not the person who just cc'd a power role lol. 



ANYWAY GOODNIGHT FOR real real 

#73
whiteflame
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@Lunatic
I genuinely think tunneling him for the logic she did, made it ultimately harder to read whiteflame, since at that point he had to dedicate all his time to responding to analysis about his meta consistencies with someone who hasn't played in a single game with him lol. I think magic's tunnel vision on whiteflame actually made it HARDER to read whiteflame by proxy since we weren't analyzing natural responses and gameplay.
I'm right there with you here, especially after she stopped responding to my posts. If anything, I tend to reveal more when I'm asked to provide inferences on the game and put myself out there more. That tends to lead to at least some subset of players scum reading me, and even when that's inaccurate, at least it's based on some shift in behavior. Pushing a narrative that basically says "your normal play is scummy" just does more to prevent me from showing anything I'm doing differently.
#74
That1User
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@Danielle
Oh and @that1user you targeted MisterChris np2 which I thought was weird. Why not target Magic again? The standard caroler role makes you choose a different person each night, but I did not include that caveat. You should have picked someone you most read town and likely to live, which was Magic obviously. Not the person who just cc'd a power role lol. 
I heavily considered it but I thought it would make Magic look sketch
#75
LikeMagic
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@Lunatic
On this same note though, the game didn't get to go long enough for whiteflame to behave in a way that would indicate if he would follow his previous agrresive style or not. His meta of wanting to be more stand offish and vtnl dp1 was consistent with his play from avatar for example. I even told magic that if whiteflame is scum, it will probably be easier to pick up on it later. I genuinely think tunneling him for the logic she did, made it ultimately harder to read whiteflame, since at that point he had to dedicate all his time to responding to analysis about his meta consistencies with someone who hasn't played in a single game with him lol. I think magic's tunnel vision on whiteflame actually made it HARDER to read whiteflame by proxy since we weren't analyzing natural responses and gameplay.
I am going to say this one more time for the people in the back. My analysis was no limited to his passive nature. It was logical inconsistency, willingness to flip flop under slight pushback, pushing reads/lynch targets without a vote etc. You all focused on the passive play and kept saying that is his town meta too and I kept saying that was not my only basis so it didn't change my read. For whatever reason, Town didn't want to hear an argument on White, which I found especially strange since you had like 5 games to base his meta on, none of which he was scum in, as he just acknowledged. 
#76
Bullish
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@LikeMagic
How so?
At the time you voted drafter the votecount on him was 1 (lunatic), the vote on whiteflame was 3 (yourself, me, and drafter). https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5360/post-links/231329

That1 had interest in voting whiteflame, we knew that, and she eventually did.

Water can probably be pressured into voting whiteflame, since he was one of the alternative wagons at the time.
#77
ILikePie5
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@Danielle
I just want to say that I've played in like 4 games with Water and I've scum read him in every single game, and in every single game he was town. I've scum read Water when I was scum and knew he wasn't scum. I've even scum read Water while I was MODDING and thought... am I tripping? Did I make him scum by accident? He's scum, right? That's happened twice lol. He is one of a kind. 
Definition of anti-town. Maybe you should switch who you ask for claims first ;)
#78
whiteflame
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@LikeMagic
And I'll say this: that's my normal play, too. In DP1, I tend to shift around a lot. I've jumped from vote to vote and given reads without backing them up with votes before. It's not terribly unusual for me, and while that might seem scummy to you (and I could understand how it does), it's not any kind of stand-out performance from other games where I have behaved the same way as town. Didn't say I was a good player, not claiming to be doing this well, just saying that my normal poor behaviors aren't scum tells. They're just me mucking about.
#79
Lunatic
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@LikeMagic
Thank you for the acknowledgment. Maybe this will earn my reads more cred in the future. 

I never said it was all your fault. There was a wealth of reasons, including my inability to convince people. As I have explained multiple times, my read was not limited to the behavior you all explained from prior games with White. For whatever reason, my reads and analysis tend to carry little weight in these games. I am sure that is in part a skill I should work on, but it is hard not to think it is some personal judgment you and others are making concerning the weight and value you believe my reads warrant. Having played with you a number of times, that is a bit frustrating to be screaming a fact (that turns out to be right, for all the reasons I came to the conclusion in the first place) with town being the main voices undermining me and writing me off as irrational (Speed and You in particular). When certain people are sure of their reads, those reads are accorded with more respect. If you have feedback for how I can improve my presentation to be afforded a similar level of respect, I would love to hear because it is useless to be right if you cannot get anyone to back you up. 

I am not going to give you advice, I don't claim to be a God at mafia, and I genuinely believe games on these websites rely more on balance and night actions, where behavior tends to take a back seat. So I don't get too worked up about being right or wrong when I play here like I would if I was playing over on mafiascum. That said I think your fundamental understanding of my interactions with you are wrong when you use terms like "Undermining me" and "Writing me off as irrational". I was doing neither of those things. I think you are one of the better mafia players, and it was frustrating that you kept taking it there just because I didn't see eye to eye with you on that read. If there was more to your case that I wasn't acknowledging, I wish you would have highlighted those to me better instead of conceding them at the end of dp1.

I am going to say this one more time for the people in the back. My analysis was no limited to his passive nature. It was logical inconsistency, willingness to flip flop under slight pushback, pushing reads/lynch targets without a vote etc.

I gave the flip flop thing under pressure it's due cred, remember I said "I want to hear whiteflame respond to this" and whiteflame's explanation made sense to me. He wanted a claim and he got the claim, and then it was enough information for him. Your post calling him out happened to be between that, but his answer for that made sense to me.  Pushing reads/lynches without a vote falls under the passive category, which I still think town whiteflame is prone to do as well. He made it clear pretty early on in the day phase he was leaning towards a vtnl after the 3 claims were out.


You all focused on the passive play and kept saying that is his town meta too and I kept saying that was not my only basis so it didn't change my read. For whatever reason, Town didn't want to hear an argument on White, which I found especially strange since you had like 5 games to base his meta on, none of which he was scum in, as he just acknowledged. 
He didn't acknowledge he wasn't scum, in fact he said he was scum twice. This was just the first time he was actually in a PM with other scum.
#80
drafterman
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This mafia game lasted 2 days and 2 hours.
#81
Lunatic
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@drafterman
This mafia game lasted 2 days and 2 hours.
I think the stand was just over 48 hours as well, though that one had 5 day phases in the time period lol
#82
LikeMagic
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@whiteflame
I'm right there with you here, especially after she stopped responding to my posts. If anything, I tend to reveal more when I'm asked to provide inferences on the game and put myself out there more. That tends to lead to at least some subset of players scum reading me, and even when that's inaccurate, at least it's based on some shift in behavior. Pushing a narrative that basically says "your normal play is scummy" just does more to prevent me from showing anything I'm doing differently.
You tagged me in two posts in DP1. one you mocked my read and said something like "if you want to read me as scum when everyone is saying it is my meta, then have at it." You then said you were busy and doing a debate. That obvs did not warrant a response since it did not address any of my arguments about your flip flopping, readily backing down, forced posts, and logical inconsistencies. 

You next tagged me two hours before the close of DP1 where you said it was rich coming for me to note your absences as another potential scum tell. This was a cherry on top of my prior arguments and not a major part of how I formed my read on you. You used the rest of the post to say how busy you were and give your "reads". 

You never responded to all of my bases for scum reading you, which makes total sense, you were scum. What you did is exactly how you should have played it as scum. Let the arguments play out among town, hope another town target arrises and that my arguments do not give steam, then avoid substantive arguments and resort to echoing mochery of my read already being articulated by townies. So no one is attacking your play, you were successful. But do not try to undermine my accurate read by claiming it was illogical or baseless. 
#83
drafterman
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@Lunatic
46 hours. That was a ride.
#84
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Speed I will never forgive you for vig killing me
#85
LikeMagic
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@whiteflame
And I'll say this: that's my normal play, too. In DP1, I tend to shift around a lot. I've jumped from vote to vote and given reads without backing them up with votes before. It's not terribly unusual for me, and while that might seem scummy to you (and I could understand how it does), it's not any kind of stand-out performance from other games where I have behaved the same way as town. Didn't say I was a good player, not claiming to be doing this well, just saying that my normal poor behaviors aren't scum tells. They're just me mucking about.
Dude, you were scum. everything you did in this game was scummy because you were scum. I am not sure why you are trying to make an argument that you played as town when you played and won as scum.  You were successful in avoiding a scum read from all but 3 town members, so GG. But that does not make my read invalid or inaccurate. Danielle has already noted an inconsistency in how you played this game vs. others as town. I am sure if we went back and took the time we could identify more, and I am sure they would validate my basis for accurately reading you as scum. 
#86
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@LikeMagic
Ironically I respected your reads but felt you had to be lynched due to mechanics
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#87
Danielle
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@Lunatic
I understand your point, but I also think while she doesn't know his play style that could actually benefit her reads in a way because she wasn't thrown off by him behaving similarly as town in the past, and she hyperfocused on the fact that he was posting fluff. She focused on behavior from THIS game and not past "metas" which people have admitted skilled players can control and manipulate. Pie plays the same regardless of his affiliation. I also think I do a decent job playing to my town meta as scum.  So you're right that whitefame did spend a lot of time defending himself and not scum hunting (which you said made you unable to read him) but that was her whole point -- he was doing everything but scum hunting and that's why she read him the way she did.  

Magic town read Pie, so there was clearly something about whiteflame's posts in particular that made him stand out lol I dunno what beyond what she argued but apparently she felt strong enough to go that hard. I was shocked myself. I didn't like the "he left upon pressure point" (I agree scum does that but I also leave all the time as town cuz I get busy a lot) but you should give feedback if you think there is anything she can do to improve her arguments.

Ps. You did NOT "trick" me into confirming there was no tailor lol. I went out of my way to confirm that all on my own in the OP! And then I was so absolutely, positively, categorically, unequivocally certain I wanted everyone to know there was no tailor that I reiterated it when you asked  even though I said I wouldn't answer questions publicly


BUT GOODNIGHT FOR REALLLLLYYYY REAL . Sign me up for the next game! 
#88
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We had a boat load of realistic fake claims, so I wasn't entirely too worried about being pressured. Part of the reason Mafia shouldn't be given fake claims.
#89
whiteflame
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@LikeMagic
I don't think I did flip flop on my position, and I explained that my position was to get a claim, not a lynch. You didn't accept that, but it doesn't make what I said a flip flop. Readily backing down is, and I mean this seriously, awfully common in my play. It's not something I'm proud of. I've also been pushed into posting a lot. Again, not something I'm proud of. As for logical inconsistencies, that's basically the majority of posts I've seen nailing someone as obviously town or obviously scum, especially in DP1. They're all based on pulling at straws, and yes, in many cases inconsistent with what that same person said earlier. I was not alone in logical inconsistencies.

And yes, I did find it problematic that you were using the fact that I was away and had other things to do as yet another reason to scum read me. I'm sorry that I wasn't on to respond to you at 9 PM. It's fucking frustrating to have someone proclaiming that I'm somehow more guilty for having other things to do. You can say that it's just the cherry on top, but seriously, it was a bit much. And yes, I used the rest of my post to give my reads, weak and uninteresting though they are. Surprise, surprise, I'm still rather new to this, and don't produce the best reads early on. 

My blanket response to many of your bases for scum reading me was the same: this is how I play. You didn't want to accept that as an answer from me, Speed, Lunatic, or MisterChris, but that was the answer I gave. If I had been town in this game, I would have given you the same answer. You want to call it scummy? Fine, then I'd be scummy no matter what side I was on. If I had been town this game, you would have had the same amount of reason to lynch me because I would have behaved exactly the same through all of DP1 and most of DP2. You have 4 people telling you this. If you don't want to accept that at this stage, then I guess I should just expect for you to have a lynch called on me every game we play together. That's bound to be fun.


#90
Lunatic
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@LikeMagic
So no one is attacking your play, you were successful. But do not try to undermine my accurate read by claiming it was illogical or baseless. 
Ignoring pie, drafter, and myself who are all telling you that he plays this way as town too is one thing. But when the man himself is telling you he would have done the same thing as town and you interpret that as a personal attack, that's just baffling. 

It goes further than just reads at this point. You are now acting as if we are all lying to you to save face, questioning not only our logic but our intentions as human beings as being antagonistic. 

I will be the first to admit I played badly in a game if I feel I did, you can cross check me in several endgames on this. Whiteflame in the stand mafia also freely admitted to poor play. I promise you not every one is out to get you. You were right, whiteflame was scum, but is it so hard to acknowledge that maybe you could have also been wrong with the same logic if you were to have played in any of those other games with whiteflame where his behavior was similar? 

We aren't judging your logic, because even whiteflame himself admits that this play is often read as scummy. Other's have pushed him in the past (myself included) for many of the same reasons you pushed him and were wrong. Hell me being wrong in the past was why I was worried about you being wrong here. It's not because the logic was "bad".