XMAS MAFIA - END GAME

As I said before, I’m not aware that it’s SOP to claim hated and it was your role that allowed us to win early. We were able to play as recklessly as we did because we knew your role.

and you played a role in the loss by not being able to get support for your point of view. Reads mean nothing if you can’t turn them into lynches and you failed to do so. It is a positive requirement on your part, as an unconfirmed player, to convince people to lynch your scum reads.

Instead you called people assholes.

And you claimed 100% accurate reads here:

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5375-xmas-mafia-end-game?page=1&post_number=17

As a scum in this game, I’m perfectly happy with your play and was completely unphased by you scum reading me because you were unable to do anything with it. Not sure why you think I’m annoyed at that.

and BTW I voted Water in the same minute that1 and yourself voted white, so at that time I was weighing 2 wagons that had the same number of votes. The moment I saw white had more votes I hopped on that wagon, which is exactly what I expect at least some other players to do, and more players would have done had white been at 4 votes for longer.

Due to ego or whatever else, instead of coming into this game like Supa and That1 and being like holly shit you called it, wish we listened to you, the instinct is to try and demean and undermine me and invalidate my play to the extent it was successful at all. Hell you could even reflect and be like, maybe I would have listened to you if you have presented it X way and give me that note. Instead you just pretend I was baselessly tunneling, without skill, analysis, logic, or understanding. It is insane. 

Even scum, instead of being like damn Magic, you had me figured out, you had me nervous feels the need to diminish my play for whatever egotistical satisfaction it brings them in their play. 

I spent 90% of this game correctly targeting one/two of the three scum players, and yet I have been antagonized by nearly every player and blamed for your own unwillingness to consider my accurate reads. It is crazy. 

Stop claiming I called everyone assholes. It is a lie. 

Magic, I literally offered to buddy you at the beginning of DP1. And here in the endgame thread we literally both scum read the same person for the same reason. And then the moment I said you derailed your own wagon which by the functional history of the wagon you did, the conversation devolves. A normal person would have just said "oh yeah I should stick my my guns more next time."  Instead you start making it about me and deny what you did.

come join the fun Mr. You Should Not Shoot NP1 as Vigilante 

Dude are you kidding? 

1) I didn't attack, nor blame you. I defended water from your attempt to put undue emphasis or blame on him. I said you are equally to blame. That is not me solely blaming you. There are multiple reasons we lost the game including balance, bad luck, water's fake claim, good moves at pushing/rushing the DP2 lynch by scum, and refusal to give weight to my reads (for whatever reason) etc. You seem to have come into the endgame feeling anticipatorily defensive of me then read my post which was more about how much waters should be blamed than you as validation of your need to be defense and responsively antagonistic.

2) the use of asshole in the game was tongue and cheek and is not at all relevant to what is being said in this thread. 

3) I have never acted as god. I have asked for constructive feedback on how to better argue my perspective and instead you and others feel the need to instead imply my reads were baseless, idiotic, illogical, worthless, foundationless/factless tunneling etc. It is very much demeaning for people to be doing this and is especially disappointing that you would. Even now saying "I too have been right for the wrong reasons." Like wtf is that? Multiple people, including danielle have said my reads and reasoning were sound, yet your instinct is to undercut it. I even said in the game that getting people to actually vote for my reads isn't a strength, humbling myself to the fact that I need improvement in that regard, yet you cannot just say "you know what magic good call, heres how you can argue it differently next time, or I need to look back at my own play and reflect on how I missed X and why I couldn't be convinced by you." All I know is if roles were reversed I would be like holy shit Tuf, how TF did you know?! I would never try to invalidate you in the manner multiple people are attempting to invalidate me here. 

4) I have given credit to multiple players, including Pie and Whiteflame, so I am not acting superior nor asking for credit. Instead my defenses of my play are in direct response to attempts to imply my reads were nonsense, in spite of being right. 

If I seem anticipatorily defensive of you, it's because your behavior towards me in the game suggested you probably were gonna do exactly what you did. The entire game you kept saying the same thing about no one listening to you and undermining you when I was trying my hardest to show you that I WAS listening to you even though I didn't agree with you on the point about whiteflame.

I've seen you blow off the handle at mikal in live mafia for example. Normally mikal doesn't just sit idly and let people throw insults at him like that, but we make an exception for you because we like you. I think you get angry or flustered very easily.

The very first game I played with you for example, you wanted to quit when we got into it. I realized at that point I have to be less aggressive than normal when playing with you, because winning as scum wasn't more important than actually having a player that reads and contributes and isn't lazy. I try to stick to that with you when we play live mafia, and in forum mafia....especially since you just said you don't like playing forum games because of our reactions to you. It's like walking on egg shells.

The whole game you STILL kept saying I was undermining you or disrespecting your read, etc etc. Forgive me for not knowing the line of tongue and cheek jokes vs you being serious,

For all the talk of asshole behaviors, I think gloating over being right takes the cake in most cases.

I maintain my position about whiteflame, though that you were scum reading him for a behavior he uses as town. If you want to see that as an insult, that's your perogative.

I did congratulate you on being right, and I still do, even if I dis-agreed with your reasons.

You called me out before any real congratulations could be made. Also like I said, I expected you to do what you did, so I wanted to wait and see how humble you were going to act before giving you a compliment.

Strange, when you call someone out that they don't come groveling to you and praising you. Aren't we humans odd? *sigh*

Let's be fair here, and credit that was given to whiteflame was also you calling him a liar as he was literally telling you he would have acted the same way as town. In giving him credit for a mafia game, you stole credit from him as a human. Not sure the pay off is there. 

why not? is that SOP? I was happy with this play. It had a pretty big town benefit. 

You simultaneously acknowledge my frustration  at no one listening to me then make it seem personal to you. Anyone would be frustrated to be right about reads and not be able to convince enough town. It wasn't personal, and I also said I needed to work on how to better argue my reads since convincing town is important. You seem to be be reading personal issues and emotion into things that aren't there. I find this interesting since so many players do crazy irrational, seemingly emotional things on the regular including regularly rage quitting or sabotaging the game when people don't do exactly what they say, yet you do not seem to have the same concerns about this. I do not behave this way, yet you are now expressing some weird concern with my "emotional" behavior. It is worth exploring why that double standard is. 

The fact is  y'all constantly yell at each other and get super aggressive, call each other idiots, go on aggressive diatribes and tangents, but the moment I do something remotely similar or express the slightest frustration, everyone is like "woah woah chill." I think it's a gendered thing. It is something I have discussed with danielle,  because i don't get the double standard. But nonetheless it's unfair and frustrating.

The reality is, game is game. I don't actually take any of it personally, until people make it personal like they have in this thread. I get frustrated like everyone, get annoyed with balance issues like everyone, but for some reason it is met negativity when I do it. In that lovers game we are referencing you used semi-personal attacks in the game as a tactic to discredit my read of you as scum, since you were scum. I literally said in that game that I hoped you were scum and this was a psychological tactic, because if so I would respect it, clearly indicating my belief that game is game. I think that the reality is you're probs a nice guy IRL who is honorable and believes you should treat woman with a certain level of decorum and consideration. I think it is this sense of honor that makes you more sensitive to potentially frustrating, angering, enraging, or upsetting a woman during a game of psychological manipulation. But I have never expected nor acted like I should be treated less aggressively than other players. However, I also expect to be allowed to be enraged, frustrated, annoyed, petty, and sore at times,  just like every player I have played this game with. Whether those reactions are authentic or  contrived. 

You've always been a player I have respect for, but based on your description of me it doesn't seem you enjoy playing mafia with me, which is totes fine. Mafia isn't very important to me, and I only joined this game and the last game because danielle asked. I don't need to keep playing.

Again, I need to clarify that I have no issue with disagreeing on reads. We are town and have to be inherently suspicious of each other. Reads are hard. I take issue with being told, especially in endgame that I 'stumbled on' my 'baseless' reads with no logical grounds. Suggesting an articulated read was discovered by chance, very much is a dig at the skill and quality of a player. 

I never said I told you so or gloated. You and others started off by immediately making numerous comments about my reads being baseless and invalid even though they "happen" to be right, like some broken clock I responded in defense to these insulting statements by noting my reads were not baseless and that it is insulting to try and discredit them instead of think hmm maybe this human isn't an idiot and came to these conclusions for logical reasons. 

I have no problem with your disagreement on whiteflame, I take issue with you implying my read was baseless tunnelling and that I stumbled onto a read without any valuable analysis. Something you implied multiple times throughout this thread, as well as others, not just in comments to me but in exchanges with other players. It is rude. I respect you as a player and if you nail reads in a game and I turn out to be wrong you can bet your ass I am going to be like "Tuf, what did you see that I didn't" and not imply that a broken clock is correct even once a day. 

I didn't call you out, I said you are at equal blame for the loss as water. Because it's not fair to put that on water. The lynch was rushed and no time was given to assessing what motive a scum water would have to lie about Pie, a widely townread player, knowing Pie could turn around and contradict him immediately as a living player. if he was fake claiming he could have just ended his results with "I saw speedrace visit Supa." No need to bring Pie into it. So while I do think Water's miss-claim was hurtful to town, it was not the largest factor in the loss. Scum's play in that DP was very good, so water was simply outmatched.

This is a game and he is a player in it. I was explaining a phenomena in the game that is hard to recognize, something I am pretty sure (could be wrong) that you explained to me years ago. I, in end game ,was convinced I played super townie and couldn't understand why certain players read me scum since  I was certain I was playing very consistent with my town meta. I believe you pointed out that I was scum so no matter what, every action is colored by my knowledged perspective and a motivation that is not the same as towns. I believe you also said, the very fact that I was reflecting on my behavior and whether it was consistent with my town meta, is a scum exercise in itself.  I read Whiteflame as scum as did a few others. There is nothing dehumanizing in me noting that he should not assume he plays 100% consistent as town and scum, since the probability of same is small and it will deprive him of an opportunity to reflect on what stood out to people to improve his scum play next time. Notably, danielle identified some inconsistencies between his town v. scum play styles. At the same time I acknowledged that in the end his playstile convinced enough people which is a win. 

Notably, I offered this positive feedback in response to comments by him, in exchange with you, implying that I stumbled onto the right answer but had no valid basis for doing so. 

https://youtu.be/81D8CCguW4g

As I said before, I’m not aware that it’s SOP to claim hated and it was your role that allowed us to win early. We were able to play as recklessly as we did because we knew your role.

It is SOP.

and you played a role in the loss by not being able to get support for your point of view. Reads mean nothing if you can’t turn them into lynches and you failed to do so. It is a positive requirement on your part, as an unconfirmed player, to convince people to lynch your scum reads.

I literally have asked for constructive feedback on how to better present my reads.

Instead I am being told my reads were baseless and to the extent they were right it was luck and not at all a reflection of a skill in scum hunting. 

Instead you called people assholes.

I only called you an asshole in response to a specific, unnecessarily antagonistic specific post

And you claimed 100% accurate reads here:

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5375-xmas-mafia-end-game?page=1&post_number=17

I was responding to something lunatic said about my "reads" on whiteflame. I have acknowledged multiple times that my read on Pie was almost full town. lIKE pie was top 3 townie in my analysis. 

As a scum in this game, I’m perfectly happy with your play and was completely unphased by you scum reading me because you were unable to do anything with it. Not sure why you think I’m annoyed at that.

Again, this is a very insulting thing to say and an absolutely unnecessary attempt to diminish me and make me feel small. It speaks more to your character that you feel the need to keep doing this, than it does to my actual quality and impact on the game. 

• Don't be so argumentative - you'll alienate the people you're arguing with and everyone else will just tune you out;
  
• Don't be so defensive - you're not being attacked nearly as much as you think you are and it puts focus on you, taking it away from other people;
  
• Stop giving a shit about being right - this is a game where a it's a job of a significant part of the player base to undermine you. Stop taking everything as a personal insult and move on.
  
• Find common ground - If you want scum lynched you need help from other people. So instead of acting like a person that has it all figured out and everyone should just follow your infallible lead, act like a person that needs help from other people. Because you do and you can't win without it.
  
• Remember that it is a team game - You're on a team, part of an affiliation. You win as a team. You lose as a team. Coming out and saying nothing was your fault and it was everyone else is being a poor team member and is poor sportsmanship.

I've been playing this game for almost a decade on this site and have never seen it SOP to claim it immediately.

Part of the reason Mafia shouldn't be given fake claims.

Am I off base with the above criticism?

Maybe you really were fully inactive from the game during that period, but I would be curious if you were inactive in your scum PM through that whole period of time, before I would be willing to let go of the fact that it appeared you were trying to stay under the radar and let me scum read fizzle out (a good strategy by the way, so there's not reason to be offended by it).