Do children start out atheist?

Author: RoderickSpode

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ethang5
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@drafterman
Children start out as atheists and are taught theism by existing theists, but I do admit that groups of humans will naturally tend toward theism (or similar religious/superstitious beliefs) as a matter of natural course.
Now we are getting somewhere. Allow me to summerize. You're saying that people are all  born atheist, but yet have a natural tendency toward theism. That they have a natural tendency toward the exact opposite of what they are born as!

It seems to me that you are ignoring the simplest explanation. Children are born neither and move one way or the other naturally.

Atheism needs to be reinforced by rational and skeptical thinking.
Does your "group of humans" theory stand up to critical scrutiny? The first theists could not possibly have been in groups. According to you, there were no theist! Unless you are proposing some mass event where whole groups of atheists morphed into theists simultaneously.

If children are born atheist, then you at least imply that is natural, but why would a natural condition of children need to be reinforced by rational and skeptical thinking? As you say they are born atheist, it seems to me it would be theism that would need to be reinforced.

Your implication that theism is not rational is just your bias. Thousands of highly rational and skeptical people have been and are now theists. You seem to be assuming your conclusion right before your premise.

Sorry, but I still think reality contradicts you. Even you acknowledge the natural tendency humans have toward theism. Why would we have a natural tendency towards what was not innate in us?

I am reminded of a scientist who theorized that there can be no innate desire in humanity that does not have a  precipitator in nature. In simpler terms, man cannot have a natural desire for what does not exist.
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@ethang5
It is obvious that children do not start out as atheists or theists.

Your wrong because all children are children of God and thats the way they are born so that means they are born theists because only a true christian knows that but atheists they dont. You are not a true christian if you say such things.

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@RoderickSpode
My opinion is no. That is, children do not determine that there's no God based on lack of evidence.

The only exception I've seen would be atheists who train their children to be atheists. Other than that, it seems far more natural for children to accept the existence of a creator. Particularly a loving one.
As far as I can recall there has been at least one scientific study on this question by an Oxford academic, and her answer was no. 
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@RoderickSpode
Well the word agnostic as defined, requires both belief, and knowledge of a GOD.

So I would say, based purely on definition, that children "start out" atheist rather than agnostic.


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@zedvictor4
Yes the science so far is no. 

Or don't you agree with the science?


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@RoderickSpode
I am looking for the study but I think this one of them. 

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@Tradesecret
Sorry.

You will have to explain.

I've based my understanding purely on lexical semantics and the innocence of the unconditioned infant.
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@ethang5
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@RoderickSpode
Children are born neither and move one way or the other naturally.
Neutral = atheist. This really isn't that hard, guys. You are just having a hard time with the word 'atheist' because of your notions of what atheists are, when all it is at its most basic is "no belief in god or gods." Neutral.  Infants are not capable of holding 'beliefs'. 
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@ludofl3x
 Infants are not capable of holding 'beliefs'. 
Your wrong again because infants are holding beliefs because they would not believe that they are having breast milk and that they are in a good bed and have a loving mummy because they will cry all the time thats how we know they believe and that they are not dumb. Also they are Gods childrens so they are born as theists anyway.
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@Utanity
Your wrong again because infants are holding beliefs because they would not believe that they are having breast milk and that they are in a good bed and have a loving mummy because they will cry all the time thats how we know they believe and that they are not dumb. Also they are Gods childrens so they are born as theists anyway.
Oh right, obviously, yeah, forgot all that "babies definitely believe they have a loving mummy," clearly demonstrated in many scientific studies of babies. Sorry, my bad. 
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Oh right, obviously, yeah, forgot all that "babies definitely believe they have a loving mummy," clearly demonstrated in many scientific studies of babies. Sorry, my bad. 
So there is proof that infants believe in God because they believe in God more than you do.
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@Utanity
So there is proof that infants believe in God because they believe in God more than you do.
Impenetrable logic, well done, I feel like this is how Saul felt on the road to Damascus.  Clearly all those muslim and hindu babies are not only stupid, and maybe even scums. 
drafterman
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@ethang5
Now we are getting somewhere. Allow me to summerize. You're saying that people are all  born atheist, but yet have a natural tendency toward theism. That they have a natural tendency toward the exact opposite of what they are born as!
You imply that this is odd. Children are born small yet grow large. They are born knowing nothing yet learn. They are born unable to walk and talk, yet quickly learn to do so.

It is a scientific fact that the human brain is wired toward superstitious thinking which lends itself towards theism. Note that I do not say that children have a natural tendency toward theism per se. They have a natural tendency toward superstitious thinking, of which theism is a kind of.


It seems to me that you are ignoring the simplest explanation. Children are born neither and move one way or the other naturally.
You can't be born neither an atheist nor a theist. There is no middle ground between the two. You are either one or the other.


Atheism needs to be reinforced by rational and skeptical thinking.
Does your "group of humans" theory stand up to critical scrutiny? The first theists could not possibly have been in groups. According to you, there were no theist! Unless you are proposing some mass event where whole groups of atheists morphed into theists simultaneously.
I am proposing that theism naturally developed out of the myths and superstitions of ancient humans. It was a gradual development over time, arising from our predilection toward seeing patterns in random events and ascribing human emotions and intelligence behind natural phenomenon.

If children are born atheist, then you at least imply that is natural, but why would a natural condition of children need to be reinforced by rational and skeptical thinking?

Because, as I have said, humans have a predisposition toward superstitious thinking. Left to our own devices, we invent myths and superstitions.

As you say they are born atheist, it seems to me it would be theism that would need to be reinforced.
Left to their own devices, a group of people would merely be superstitious and would most likely develop some sort of theism as a crude explanatory model of the world (you know, as actually happened in human history), but not necessarily any form of specific theism that already exists (which would have to be reinforced).

Your implication that theism is not rational is just your bias. Thousands of highly rational and skeptical people have been and are now theists. You seem to be assuming your conclusion right before your premise.
It is impossible to be completely, 100% rational. No person is, ergo every person has some level of irrational thinking.

Sorry, but I still think reality contradicts you. Even you acknowledge the natural tendency humans have toward theism. Why would we have a natural tendency towards what was not innate in us?
The propensity for superstitious thinking is innate in us, just like the propensity for language is innate in us. It is no more surprising that we are born without theistic thoughts but are prone to develop them than it is surprising that we are born without language but are prone to learn them. These are scientific facts, ethang. I am happy to explain them, but they are no more up for debate than the color of the sky or the sum of 2 and 2.

I am reminded of a scientist who theorized that there can be no innate desire in humanity that does not have a  precipitator in nature. In simpler terms, man cannot have a natural desire for what does not exist.
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@ludofl3x
 Clearly all those muslim and hindu babies are not only stupid, and maybe even scums. 
No you are wrong again because they are like atheist babies because they are born to be gods children but their parents are scum and then they teach the kids to be scum. It is not good anyway because those kids they have goat milk anyway.
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@Utanity
No you are wrong again because they are like atheist babies because they are born to be gods children but their parents are scum and then they teach the kids to be scum. It is not good anyway because those kids they have goat milk anyway.
Right, right, sorry, miscalculated.  Clearly the hindus and muslims are all scums, and all that goat's milk is a clear factor in their scumly results. I can't believe I didn't put all this together sooner. Babies are born Christians, all over the world, and goat's milk plus their scummy parents eventually condemn them to hell, and the god that loves these innocent pre-scum babies so much doesn't do a lot to help. 
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@Tradesecret

I am looking for the study but I think this one of them. 


Yes!

While reading this article, I was reminded of my childhood view of God (while growing up in an atheist atmosphere). I didn't really want to refer to it because it's just an experience of one person. However, this article confirms my view of a child's awareness of a loving God regardless of upbringing.

If I could put a thumbtack on this post I would.

Thanks TS


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@drafterman
i think it is the correct one
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@RoderickSpode
When I was 12 my Aunt and Uncle, who were very religious, had a 7 year old son who got leukemia. After treatment at a Mayo clinic in Wisconsin he died. That confirmed my view of the myth of a loving God.
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If you don't mind me asking, how did your aunt and uncle take it?
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@ludofl3x
Right, right, sorry, miscalculated.  Clearly the hindus and muslims are all scums, and all that goat's milk is a clear factor in their scumly results. I can't believe I didn't put all this together sooner. Babies are born Christians, all over the world, and goat's milk plus their scummy parents eventually condemn them to hell, and the god that loves these innocent pre-scum babies so much doesn't do a lot to help. 
Now you are right but thats what I said so you are copycat of me but I think you are taking mikey from me because babies are come from the true god first and they are christian only because God had Jesus. And you should care more about the scummy people because they cant use their breasts because they cant eat and they must have to milk the goats.
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@drafterman
You imply that this is odd.
You confuse a physical state with a tendency. Children are born small but are born with a tendency to grow larger. Children are born knowing nothing but with a tendency to learn. A child that did not grow or learn would be considered odd, yes.

It is a scientific fact that the human brain is wired toward superstitious thinking....
I have seen no proof of this. The human brain is curious and seeks out explanations for why reality is the way it is. This tendency often leads to false ideas about reality. This is true even for science.

...which lends itself towards theism
No. All initial inquiry can be labeled "superstitious thinking". It is ad-hoc to bunch theism in with "superstitious thinking" to suit your argument. Even science has led us to wrong beliefs about reality. "Superstitious thinking" is wrong thinking. Both science and theism can fall under this banner. It is your bias that makes you equate theism with superstition.

You can't be born neither an atheist nor a theist. There is no middle ground between the two. You are either one or the other.
Not true. Children are BEFORE the determination of theist or atheist, just like Schrödinger's cat, we cannot say whether they are theist or atheist, so they are neither. A person cannot be unconsciously atheist, as atheism requires a knowledge of theism, thus the name "a-theist". Without theism, the definition of atheist makes no sense.

Atheism is not simply an absence of theism, it is a rejection of theism. In newborns, there is no theism, and thus nothing to reject.

I am proposing that theism naturally developed out of the myths and superstitions of ancient humans.
Even science developed out of the myths and superstitions of ancient humans! Both science and theism have had to separate and distinguish themselves from the old myths and superstitions of ancient humans. But all inquiry "lends itself" to superstitious" thinking. It is just easy for your argument to label all theism as "superstitious thinking", but unfortunately for you, that categorization is also wrong.

Left to our own devices, we invent myths and superstitions.
Then it is convenient for your argument that you have already labeled theism as "myths and superstitions"! Getting to conclusions by means other than logic makes for poor arguments.

Try this....
Left to their own devices, a group of people would merely be superstitious and would most likely develop some sort of science as a crude explanatory model of the world (you know, as actually happened in human history).

...Is the above true? of course it is. You are trying to shoe-horn theism into "superstitious thinking" when science also fits the bill!

It is impossible to be completely, 100% rational. No person is, ergo every person has some level of irrational thinking.
You contention has not been about thinking, but "superstitous thinking", which you equate with theism. So please clear this up for me. Is the following a correct representation of your position?

It is impossible to be completely, 100% non-superstitous. No person is, ergo every person has some level of superstitous thinking.

1. If you say the above is true, you then admit that superstition is NOT the exclusive domain of theism, but if you say the above is untrue, then 2. You DO equate theism with superstition.

1 undercuts your current argument, and 2 is obviously an atheist bias.

The propensity for superstitious thinking is innate in us, just like the propensity for language is innate in us.
That is well and good, but you go further and substitute "theism" for superstitious thinking" in your argument. That is a fallacy. A perfect example using your claim above would be if you substituted "English" for language.

The propensity for superstitious thinking is innate in us, just like the propensity for English is innate in us.

Both substitutions render the statement incorrect. Superstitious thinking is not what is innate in us, curiosity is what is innate. Just as English is not what is innate in us, language is what is innate. It is just as illogical to substitute English for language, as it is to substitute theism for superstitious thinking, when talking about "innate qualities" in us.

Calling a baby an atheist rests on the incorrect definition of atheist as "without belief". But without belief in what? "Without belief" becomes comparative, and is thus irrational in a system devoid of theism, which is what a baby is.

For example, calling someone a-moral loses all rationality in a system lacking morality. Lacking morality makes sense only if there exists morality in that system. Babies are born neither atheist or theist. When the child takes up a belief in God, he becomes a theist, when he rejects a belief in God, he becomes an atheist. Before then, he is neither.
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@ludofl3x
Neutral = atheist.
Sorry, this makes no sense. Atheist means devoid of a belief IN GOD, not just devoid of belief. Without God, the definition loses meaning.

This really isn't that hard, guys. You are just having a hard time with the word 'atheist' because of your notions of what atheists are, when all it is at its most basic is "no belief in god or gods." Neutral.  Infants are not capable of holding 'beliefs'. 
Thus they are incapable of having any belief to reject. Your definition of atheist as having, "no belief in god or gods" makes no sense without knowledge of beliefs in god or gods. Please see my reply @drafterman above.
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@ethang5

You confuse a physical state with a tendency. Children are born small but are born with a tendency to grow larger. Children are born knowing nothing but with a tendency to learn. A child that did not grow or learn would be considered odd, yes.
And they are born believing in nothing (including gods) with a tendency toward forming beliefs.

I have seen no proof of this. The human brain is curious and seeks out explanations for why reality is the way it is. This tendency often leads to false ideas about reality. This is true even for science.
That's what I mean by "wired toward superstitious thinking." You just articulated exactly what I am talking about.

No. All initial inquiry can be labeled "superstitious thinking". It is ad-hoc to bunch theism in with "superstitious thinking" to suit your argument. Even science has led us to wrong beliefs about reality. "Superstitious thinking" is wrong thinking. Both science and theism can fall under this banner. It is your bias that makes you equate theism with superstition.
It is not ad-hoc, it is descriptive. I don't equate them as much as I recognize theism as a specific kind of superstitious thinking in the same way that a triangle is a specific kind of polygon.


You can't be born neither an atheist nor a theist. There is no middle ground between the two. You are either one or the other.
Not true. Children are BEFORE the determination of theist or atheist, just like Schrödinger's cat, we cannot say whether they are theist or atheist, so they are neither.
There is no "neither." You are one or the other.

A person cannot be unconsciously atheist, as atheism requires a knowledge of theism, thus the name "a-theist".
The name "a-theist" literally means "not a theist." Atheism is the logical negation of theism. if you aren't a theist, then you are an atheist. Awareness or knowledge is not required by any definition I am aware of.

Without theism, the definition of atheist makes no sense.

Atheism is not simply an absence of theism, it is a rejection of theism. In newborns, there is no theism, and thus nothing to reject.
Incorrect. Atheism quite literally is the absence of theism.


I am proposing that theism naturally developed out of the myths and superstitions of ancient humans.
Even science developed out of the myths and superstitions of ancient humans! Both science and theism have had to separate and distinguish themselves from the old myths and superstitions of ancient humans. But all inquiry "lends itself" to superstitious" thinking.
I'm glad we're in agreement.

It is just easy for your argument to label all theism as "superstitious thinking", but unfortunately for you, that categorization is also wrong.
I understand why it is important for you to deny it, but that does not make it wrong.

Then it is convenient for your argument that you have already labeled theism as "myths and superstitions"! Getting to conclusions by means other than logic makes for poor arguments.

Try this....
Left to their own devices, a group of people would merely be superstitious and would most likely develop some sort of science as a crude explanatory model of the world (you know, as actually happened in human history).

...Is the above true? of course it is. You are trying to shoe-horn theism into "superstitious thinking" when science also fits the bill!
You seem to think you've stumbled onto some sort of "gotcha" moment here. I agree with everything you've said. You are the one carving out some magical protection for theistic thoughts here. My stance is perfectly consistent.

You contention has not been about thinking, but "superstitous thinking", which you equate with theism. So please clear this up for me. Is the following a correct representation of your position?

It is impossible to be completely, 100% non-superstitous. No person is, ergo every person has some level of superstitous thinking.

1. If you say the above is true, you then admit that superstition is NOT the exclusive domain of theism, but if you say the above is untrue, then 2. You DO equate theism with superstition.

1 undercuts your current argument, and 2 is obviously an atheist bias.
I never said superstition is the exclusive domain of theism. There are plenty of non-theistic superstitions.

That is well and good, but you go further and substitute "theism" for superstitious thinking" in your argument. That is a fallacy. A perfect example using your claim above would be if you substituted "English" for language.

The propensity for superstitious thinking is innate in us, just like the propensity for English is innate in us.

Both substitutions render the statement incorrect. Superstitious thinking is not what is innate in us, curiosity is what is innate. Just as English is not what is innate in us, language is what is innate. It is just as illogical to substitute English for language, as it is to substitute theism for superstitious thinking, when talking about "innate qualities" in us.
It's pretty conclusive that superstition is innate in us. This isn't some recent, bleeding area of science here. It's centuries, settled science. If you disagree, fine, but I'm not particularly interested in debating what are hard facts. It'd be more productive for you to actually do some research into the matter and learn the true state of things.

Calling a baby an atheist rests on the incorrect definition of atheist as "without belief". But without belief in what?
A god or gods.

ethang it's very simple:

"Do babies believe in god?"

Unless the answer is "yes" they are atheists.
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@RoderickSpode
I mean, you're wrong, not in what you're saying, but the premise.

Atheists can either be people with a lack of belief or people who actively disbelieve, therefore babies, as they lack a belief, are technically atheists. Now is this a useful distinction? Not really, because their atheists just like the stereotyped, mad at god, sort of atheist is an atheist ya know? You can be an atheist for bad or just semantic reasons. I think that falls under here.
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@drafterman
I have seen no proof of this. The human brain is curious and seeks out explanations for why reality is the way it is. This tendency often leads to false ideas about reality. This is true even for science.
That's what I mean by "wired toward superstitious thinking." You just articulated exactly what I am talking about.
But then you go and substitute "theism" for "superstitious thinking." That is where you err.

I don't equate them as much as I recognize theism as a specific kind of superstitious thinking in the same way that a triangle is a specific kind of polygon.
False analogy. All triangles are polygons, but not all theism is superstitious thinking, unless you jump to that conclusion because of atheist bias.

There is no "neither." You are one or the other.
You BECOME one or the other. Address my point. Atheism is coherent only in systems with theism. A baby doesn't qualify.

Awareness or knowledge is not required by any definition I am aware of.
Then by this definition, a wilderbeest is an atheist. I reject this definition as so broad as to be useless and incoherent.

The name "a-theist" literally means "not a theist."
This definition renders the universe into only 2 groups, theists and everything else in it! That may serve your argument but lacks coherancy. Mt. Fiji is not an atheist.

Atheism is the logical negation of theism.
Babies are not logical, and certainly have not negated anything.

Even science developed out of the myths and superstitions of ancient humans! Both science and theism have had to separate and distinguish themselves from the old myths and superstitions of ancient humans. But all inquiry "lends itself" to superstitious" thinking.
I'm glad we're in agreement.
Only before you self-servingly, and incorrectly substituted "theism" for "superstitious thinking".

It is just easy for your argument to label all theism as "superstitious thinking", but unfortunately for you, that categorization is also wrong.
I understand why it is important for you to deny it, but that does not make it wrong.
I'm not denying it, I'm calling it illogical. You have offered no logical reason for the substitution. Your polygon analogy assumes your conclusion (that theism is a subset of superstitious thinking) and is thus illogical. You think theism is a subset of superstitious thinking because you are an atheist. You have offered no logical explanation for it.

I agree with everything you've said. You are the one carving out some magical protection for theistic thoughts here. My stance is perfectly consistent.
Your stance is consistent UNTIL you inexplicably substitute in theism for superstitious thinking. Your atheism is blinding you to the logical error you're committing. Your argument is logical for superstitious thinking, it is not logical for all of theism.

I never said superstition is the exclusive domain of theism. There are plenty of non-theistic superstitions.
I call trick play. In your 1st sentence, superstition is the subject, theism the object. Your 2nd sentences switches and makes theism the subject and superstition the object. Here is the comment without the trick play.

I never said superstition is the exclusive domain of theism. There are plenty of superstitions that are non-theistic

The switch changes the meaning.
Trick comment...
I never said superstition is the exclusive domain of theism. 
Superstition ≠ theism

There are plenty of non-theistic superstitions.
Atheism ≠ superstition

Honest comment....
I never said superstition is the exclusive domain of theism.
Superstition ≠ theism

There are plenty of superstitions that are non-theistic
Superstition ≠ theism

You are saying that all theism is superstition. You have offered no reason for this claim, so I have assumed it is a function of your atheist bias and not derived from logic. Now, I understand why it is important for you to assert this, but that does not make it correct.

It's pretty conclusive that superstition is innate in us.
What is clear is that the tendency to want to explain the unknown is innate in us, which can lead to superstition. Just as the tendency to language is innate in us, which can lead to English. Calling English innate is just as illogical as calling superstition innate.

Unless the answer is "yes" they are atheists.
I've addressed this. Ignoring it will not make it less correct.

Does the leaning tower of Pisa  believe in God?

Unless the answer is "yes" it is atheist.
Any argument that renders the leaning tower of Pisa an atheist is indistinguishable from nonsense. This is the kind of incoherency that  happens when people are terrified of any argument that they think might lead to God.

Babies being neither atheist nor theist at birth is not a theistic argument, and is not intended to be one. It's just simple logic.
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@RoderickSpode
Very interesting, am I a child?
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@Theweakeredge
From the Pathos website (atheist activist group)

He’s absolutely right. Babies have no religion. That doesn’t mean they’re atheists in the same way the rest of us are — they’ve put no thought whatsoever into the matter. They’re non-religious in the same way they’re non-political. If you want to say they don’t believe in God, that’s literally true, yes, but virtually meaningless.
It’s like saying your cat’s an atheist. Your cat doesn’t profess a belief in God, but it’s not exactly saying the opposite either. It doesn’t mean atheists get to draw another tally mark on the big board.

This is in reference to a comment by Richard Dawkins who simply said babies have no religion.

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@Theweakeredge
No. I don't think so.

Why would you ask that?

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@RoderickSpode
I mean yeah.... thats what I said..... that the distinction is semantic at best..... you do know I agree with that quote right?
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@RoderickSpode
Just your conversation with... who was it, I can't remember to be honest, about you saying that "If you think 16 year olds are children we are two different wave lengths" or something like that. I was just curious