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@ludofl3x
Okay, I guess forget it then. Intelligence doesn't determine if someone is a child or not.
What do you feel determines the qualification for childhood?
Do children start out atheist?
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@drafterman
First off, when I referred to the definition being too oversimplified, I wasn't talking about the dictionary version.
Let me create a scenario.
Two people approach you on different occasions.
You say to the first (for whatever reason) that god "X" exists. They tell you they don't believe such a god, or any god exists.
Is that an atheist?
You say the same thing to the second person who approaches you, and they say they never heard of god "x", and may, if they have time look into it.
Is that person an agnostic?
Let me create a scenario.Two people approach you on different occasions.You say to the first (for whatever reason) that god "X" exists. They tell you they don't believe such a god, or any god exists.Is that an atheist?
Yes.
You say the same thing to the second person who approaches you, and they say they never heard of god "x", and may, if they have time look into it.Is that person an agnostic?
If they've never heard of it, then they can't believe in it.
If they don't believe in it, they can't claim any knowledge to it.
Ergo they're an agnostic.
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@drafterman
You say the same thing to the second person who approaches you, and they say they never heard of god "x", or any reference to a god concept, and may, if they have time look into it.Is that person an agnostic?If they've never heard of it, then they can't believe in it.If they don't believe in it, they can't claim any knowledge to it.Ergo they're an agnostic/
If I understand you correctly, what would be the difference if the person was a child being asked the same question?
I had to make a slight adjustment in my quote btw.
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@RoderickSpode
If I understand you correctly, what would be the difference if the person was a child being asked the same question?
Nothing.
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@RoderickSpode
Rod, it doesn't make any difference, babies are not born believing in god, which answers the question in the OP. Resoundingly, YES, they are atheists. They don't believe in god, which is the only requirement to qualify. An infant doesn't have the cognitive function to worry anything but its physical needs, it doesn't contemplate the origin of the universe or life. Forget I asked about the sixteen year old, you don't want to answer and instead are trying to dissemble into semantics.
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@RoderickSpode
The dictionary defines an atheist as a disbeliever or someone that lacks belief.
So yes, I would certainly have lacked belief at the age of 4....In fact, I expect that at the age of 4 most kids have not really grasped the concepts of either, belief or disbelief. Save the odd few who have had the misfortune to suffer overzealous indoctrination.
So in terms of lacking belief, I think that it is fair to say that children start out as atheists.
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@ludofl3x
Rod, it doesn't make any difference, babies are not born believing in god, which answers the question in the OP. Resoundingly, YES, they are atheists. They don't believe in god, which is the only requirement to qualify. An infant doesn't have the cognitive function to worry anything but its physical needs, it doesn't contemplate the origin of the universe or life. Forget I asked about the sixteen year old, you don't want to answer and instead are trying to dissemble into semantics.
Semantics is not what I want to get into, no.
It seems inevitable.
I'm determining that a sixteen year old is not a child due to their ability to reason. A sixteen year can generally say "Phooey, Santa doesn't exist". A child however will at first explanation believe Santa exists because there's no reason as of yet not to.
If a sixteen year old is mentally handi-capped, then they might be considered a child depending on the level of their handi-cap.
Hopefully that answers your question.
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@zedvictor4
The dictionary defines an atheist as a disbeliever or someone that lacks belief.So yes, I would certainly have lacked belief at the age of 4....In fact, I expect that at the age of 4 most kids have not really grasped the concepts of either, belief or disbelief. Save the odd few who have had the misfortune to suffer overzealous indoctrination.So in terms of lacking belief, I think that it is fair to say that children start out as atheists.
Since you mention fairness, would you say it's also fair to say they start out as agnostics since they don't know if God exists?
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@RoderickSpode
I'm determining that a sixteen year old is not a child due to their ability to reason. A sixteen year can generally say "Phooey, Santa doesn't exist". A child however will at first explanation believe Santa exists because there's no reason as of yet not to.If a sixteen year old is mentally handi-capped, then they might be considered a child depending on the level of their handi-cap.
So you are not really sure if my question was referring to a handicapped sixteen year old? You read that question and your first through was "wait a minute, does he mean a special needs sixteen year old? Better clarify just in case!" For real?
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@drafterman
I may as well clarify now.
I stated that in my opinion, children are not atheists. I'm actually not even claiming they are agnostics.
For one, we don't know what we believed, or didn't believe at early enough age. Unless you can tell me otherwise, your earliest infant years draw a blank.
We do know we forget things over time. We most certainly forgot many events that happened throughout our life, including our thoughts. So how would you know whether or not you, or any infant were aware of the existence of a creator?
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@ludofl3x
So you are not really sure if my question was referring to a handicapped sixteen year old? You read that question and your first through was "wait a minute, does he mean a special needs sixteen year old? Better clarify just in case!" For real?
No, that's not what I thought at all.
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@RoderickSpode
I may as well clarify now.I stated that in my opinion, children are not atheists. I'm actually not even claiming they are agnostics.For one, we don't know what we believed, or didn't believe at early enough age. Unless you can tell me otherwise, your earliest infant years draw a blank.
A blank exactly. That is my proposal as well: we have no beliefs when we are born. This includes not believing in a god, hence atheism.
We do know we forget things over time. We most certainly forgot many events that happened throughout our life, including our thoughts. So how would you know whether or not you, or any infant were aware of the existence of a creator?
That we don't know exactly what is going in the heads of infants and toddlers does not mean we can't rule out some things. The presence of early child-hood amnesia still perplexes many people. Yet we do have a fair grasp of the generalities of cognitive development.
I think it's agreeable to suggest that conceptualizing the idea of a god requires a fair amount of abstract thought, as it is not rooted in any think physical or tangible in the real world. This kind of thinking really doesn't start developing until later childhood. But it has very fuzzy edges and abstract thoughts trickle in slowly at first and this type of thinking strengths and broadens as the child grows. We're talking ranges anywhere from 6 to 16, depending on a variety of circumstances.
Point being, an infant simply does not have the capability of forming any real beliefs as they don't have thoughts in the sense we understand them, let alone thoughts about abstract entities.
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@drafterman
Children aren't born theists.An atheist is a person that isn't a theist.Ergo children are born atheists.
couple things come to mind
first, atheism is not simply not a theist, someone could be deists or agnostics. Atheism would be more if someone had reviewed the evidence and made up his mind that God does not exist, that is not children. They do not have the comprehension to identify themselves as atheists, heck most don't even though they are
on technicality, I would argue they are more likely agnostics or simply unaffiliated, they don't have knowledge to identify themselves with the atheism per definition and it makes more sense to go with agnostics who are people who think the knowledge is unmown or more likely unaffiliated/undecided.
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@drafterman
this is also irrelevant to theology as children and babies cant sin, they dont understand it yet but (assuming) most are raised Christian
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@Dr.Franklin
couple things come to mindfirst, atheism is not simply not a theist,
That's exactly what it is, both definitionally and etymologically speaking.
someone could be deists or agnostics.
Deism is a subset of theism. Agnosticism is independent of any. You can be an agnostic theist (or not) and you can be an agnostic atheist (or not).
Atheism would be more if someone had reviewed the evidence and made up his mind that God does not exist, that is not children.
There is nothing inherent in the meaning of atheism that requires review of any evidence.
They do not have the comprehension to identify themselves as atheists, heck most don't even though they are
There is nothing inherent in the meaning of atheism that requires self-identification.
on technicality, I would argue they are more likely agnostics or simply unaffiliated,
I would agree that they are technical agnostics, but that is an independent of their atheism. Neither atheism nor agnostics are "affiliations."
they don't have knowledge to identify themselves with the atheism per definition and it makes more sense to go with agnostics who are people who think the knowledge is unmown or more likely unaffiliated/undecided.
Again, self-identification or understanding is not required.
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@drafterman
A blank exactly. That is my proposal as well: we have no beliefs when we are born. This includes not believing in a god, hence atheism.
Far more mentally mature people have drawn blanks at times via drugs and alcohol. It doesn't mean that during those lost hours no thoughts were going through the person's mind.
That we don't know exactly what is going in the heads of infants and toddlers does not mean we can't rule out some things. The presence of early child-hood amnesia still perplexes many people. Yet we do have a fair grasp of the generalities of cognitive development.I think it's agreeable to suggest that conceptualizing the idea of a god requires a fair amount of abstract thought, as it is not rooted in any think physical or tangible in the real world. This kind of thinking really doesn't start developing until later childhood. But it has very fuzzy edges and abstract thoughts trickle in slowly at first and this type of thinking strengths and broadens as the child grows. We're talking ranges anywhere from 6 to 16, depending on a variety of circumstances.Point being, an infant simply does not have the capability of forming any real beliefs as they don't have thoughts in the sense we understand them, let alone thoughts about abstract entities.
As a believer I don't see any reason to rule out a conscious realization of a creator during infancy, even if not able to conceptualize the idea of a god. And of course biblically speaking it makes a lot sense.
If you went to a remote section of a wilderness region and encountered some animals who've never seen a human, we could say by your definition that these animals were natural atheists concerning a higher intelligence (humans).
They allow you to intermingle with them, but lack the ability to understand what we represent in the animal kingdom. But is there now a relationship going on between you and the animals? Of course.
My definition of atheism leans a bit to this one:
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
I don't think a newborn disbelieves. Or even lacks belief.
And I have to admit, in the back of my mind I may be thinking about how the suggestion of infants being atheists implies that introducing a religion or spiritual belief to a child is a violation.
But, really, if the definition of atheism is fairly loose, I suppose it doesn't really matter to me personally.
But again, in my opinion infants have a relationship with the creator that overrides the infants lack of being able to form beliefs. We can intermingle with ants even though they are powerless to understand what we are.
Far more mentally mature people have drawn blanks at times via drugs and alcohol. It doesn't mean that during those lost hours no thoughts were going through the person's mind.
I am not talking about "drawing a blank."
That we don't know exactly what is going in the heads of infants and toddlers does not mean we can't rule out some things. The presence of early child-hood amnesia still perplexes many people. Yet we do have a fair grasp of the generalities of cognitive development.I think it's agreeable to suggest that conceptualizing the idea of a god requires a fair amount of abstract thought, as it is not rooted in any think physical or tangible in the real world. This kind of thinking really doesn't start developing until later childhood. But it has very fuzzy edges and abstract thoughts trickle in slowly at first and this type of thinking strengths and broadens as the child grows. We're talking ranges anywhere from 6 to 16, depending on a variety of circumstances.Point being, an infant simply does not have the capability of forming any real beliefs as they don't have thoughts in the sense we understand them, let alone thoughts about abstract entities.As a believer I don't see any reason to rule out a conscious realization of a creator during infancy, even if not able to conceptualize the idea of a god. And of course biblically speaking it makes a lot sense.
Then this would be yet another area in which the Bible contradicts known science. If you're argument boils down to "Children are theists because the Bible says so and take the Bible at its word by default" then I have no refutation to offer and our conversation comes to a conclusion.
If you went to a remote section of a wilderness region and encountered some animals who've never seen a human, we could say by your definition that these animals were natural atheists concerning a higher intelligence (humans).
The scope of conversation for -isms is generally restricted to people (e.g. humans). I'm not prepared to talk about the atheism of slugs or rocks or such. They are out of scope.
They allow you to intermingle with them, but lack the ability to understand what we represent in the animal kingdom. But is there now a relationship going on between you and the animals? Of course.My definition of atheism leans a bit to this one:a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.I don't think a newborn disbelieves. Or even lacks belief.
They necessarily lack belief, as explained in detail so far.
And I have to admit, in the back of my mind I may be thinking about how the suggestion of infants being atheists implies that introducing a religion or spiritual belief to a child is a violation.
A violation of what?
But, really, if the definition of atheism is fairly loose, I suppose it doesn't really matter to me personally.
The definition is what you have stated it to be and your issue isn't with the definition. You simply don't understand that infants don't have beliefs and therefore atheists. You simply want them to have beliefs as that is consistent with your own beliefs as derived from the Bible. I can say nothing to this except that there is nothing about the real world that suggests it must conform to your established world view or that of the Bible. That this doesn't matter to you is contradicted by your desire to create a thread about this very subject.
But again, in my opinion infants have a relationship with the creator that overrides the infants lack of being able to form beliefs. We can intermingle with ants even though they are powerless to understand what we are.
I don't even care to know what that means. The relevant fact is they lack the ability to form beliefs. Ergot they lack beliefs. Ergo they lack a belief in god. Ergo they are atheists. It can't get much simpler or iron clad than that.
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@drafterman
I am not talking about "drawing a blank."
I'm pointing out that there are times an adult's mind goes blank as to what happened a day or so ago. Your mind is blank as to what went on in your earliest infant years. So you don't really know if your mind was actually blank at the time.
Or do you?
As a believer I don't see any reason to rule out a conscious realization of a creator during infancy, even if not able to conceptualize the idea of a god. And of course biblically speaking it makes a lot sense.Then this would be yet another area in which the Bible contradicts known science. If you're argument boils down to "Children are theists because the Bible says so and take the Bibleatits word by default" then I have no refutation to offer and our conversation comes to a conclusion.
sorry for any religious reference, but it is a religion forum.
You used the term known science. Is there an unknown, or unknown as of yet science?
You certainly don't have to continue the conversation, but part of my opinion is based on scripture. but I'm not making that my argument. If we don't remember our earliest infant years, then how can you make any solid claim that we were unaware of something like a creator?
I would say it's likely to be a major catalyst in adults believing in God.
Science doesn't disprove a creator, nor the ability for a creator to interact with humans powerless to take any initiative in doing the same. If it does, please show me.
The scope of conversation for -isms is generally restricted to people (e.g. humans). I'm not prepared to talk about the atheism of slugs or rocks or such. They are out of scope.
I'm not trying to create a new definition of atheism for animals.
Unfortunately I think you've been side-tracked by the term.
Wouldn't you agree that a creator would probably have the ability to interact with it's creation, even if the creation lacks ability to comprehend everything about the creator? Infants don't even know everything about their parents. Do infants lack belief in parents if they don't know what they are?
Seriously!
A violation of what?
Have you ever seen a thread in this forum suggesting teaching children religion is abusive?
The definition is what you have stated it to be and your issue isn't with the definition. You simply don't understand that infants don't have beliefs and therefore atheists. You simply want them to have beliefs as that is consistent with your own beliefs as derived from the Bible. I can say nothing to this except that there is nothing about the real world that suggests it must conform to your established world view or that of the Bible. That this doesn't matter to you is contradicted by your desire to create a thread about this very subject.
I don't think you're implying that infants have absolutely no beliefs. Are you?
But again, in my opinion infants have a relationship with the creator that overrides the infants lack of being able to form beliefs. We can intermingle with ants even though they are powerless to understand what we are.I don't even care to know what that means.
Why? What is so god awful, or appears to be so god awful about what I said?
The relevant fact is they lack the ability to form beliefs. Ergot they lack beliefs. Ergo they lack a belief in god. Ergo they are atheists. It can't get much simpler or iron clad than that.
And again, are you really sure an infant cannot form a belief?
I'm pointing out that there are times an adult's mind goes blank as to what happened a day or so ago. Your mind is blank as to what went on in your earliest infant years. So you don't really know if your mind was actually blank at the time.Or do you?
I'm saying those situations are not analogous.
As a believer I don't see any reason to rule out a conscious realization of a creator during infancy, even if not able to conceptualize the idea of a god. And of course biblically speaking it makes a lot sense.Then this would be yet another area in which the Bible contradicts known science. If you're argument boils down to "Children are theists because the Bible says so and take the Bibleatits word by default" then I have no refutation to offer and our conversation comes to a conclusion.sorry for any religious reference, but it is a religion forum.You used the term known science. Is there an unknown, or unknown as of yet science?You certainly don't have to continue the conversation, but part of my opinion is based on scripture. but I'm not making that my argument. If we don't remember our earliest infant years, then how can you make any solid claim that we were unaware of something like a creator?
Because, as I have explained, infants lack the cognitive ability to even form such beliefs.
I would say it's likely to be a major catalyst in adults believing in God.Science doesn't disprove a creator, nor the ability for a creator to interact with humans powerless to take any initiative in doing the same. If it does, please show me.
Science does, however, show us that infants lack the cognitive ability to form such abstract beliefs. No belief = no belief in a god = atheism.
The scope of conversation for -isms is generally restricted to people (e.g. humans). I'm not prepared to talk about the atheism of slugs or rocks or such. They are out of scope.I'm not trying to create a new definition of atheism for animals.Unfortunately I think you've been side-tracked by the term.Wouldn't you agree that a creator would probably have the ability to interact with it's creation, even if the creation lacks ability to comprehend everything about the creator? Infants don't even know everything about their parents. Do infants lack belief in parents if they don't know what they are?
Whether I agree with this is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
The conversation at hand is whether or not children have a belief in god when they are born. They do not. This has nothing to do with whether or not a god actually exists and whether or not said god can interact with those children.
Seriously!A violation of what?Have you ever seen a thread in this forum suggesting teaching children religion is abusive?
I have not created such a thread, so I'm not sure why you are broaching the topic with me, personally. I am not prepared to comment on the arguments of other individuals one way or another.
The definition is what you have stated it to be and your issue isn't with the definition. You simply don't understand that infants don't have beliefs and therefore atheists. You simply want them to have beliefs as that is consistent with your own beliefs as derived from the Bible. I can say nothing to this except that there is nothing about the real world that suggests it must conform to your established world view or that of the Bible. That this doesn't matter to you is contradicted by your desire to create a thread about this very subject.I don't think you're implying that infants have absolutely no beliefs. Are you?
Not the abstract beliefs such as a belief in god. Once born their beliefs (such as they are) are limited direct interaction with the world and, even them, most of their responses are reflexive, not conscious and voluntary.
But again, in my opinion infants have a relationship with the creator that overrides the infants lack of being able to form beliefs. We can intermingle with ants even though they are powerless to understand what we are.I don't even care to know what that means.Why? What is so god awful, or appears to be so god awful about what I said?
Nothing is awful about it. It is just irrelevant to this conversation.
The relevant fact is they lack the ability to form beliefs. Ergot they lack beliefs. Ergo they lack a belief in god. Ergo they are atheists. It can't get much simpler or iron clad than that.And again, are you really sure an infant cannot form a belief?
A belief in a god? Yes. I am sure about that. Infants lack the cognitive development to form such abstract beliefs. It takes well more than a year for children just to realize that other people are in fact other people (rather than extensions of themselves) yet we're going to place on them the burden to conceive and understand the concept of a god?
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@drafterman
Because, as I have explained, infants lack the cognitive ability to even form such beliefs.
I see further down your post a rather major misunderstanding. I'll get to that when I get there.
Science does, however, show us that infants lack the cognitive ability to form such abstract beliefs. No belief = no belief in a god = atheism.
And science does not however disprove the existence of a creator. And thus does not disprove the many claims amongst humans throughout history of having an awareness of a creator. This is not ad populum in that I'm not claiming this to be proof of a creator. It does beg the question can one really claim this to be irrelevant in the argument for a creator?
Whether I agree with this is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.The conversation at hand is whether or not children have a belief in god when they are born. They do not. This has nothing to do with whether or not a god actually exists and whether or not said god can interact with those children.
This is at least one of your statements where a misunderstanding takes place. The subject at hand is not whether or not children have a belief in God. My opening statement was that I don't perceive them as atheists. I maintain the same view that DrFranklin takes. Infants are neutral in
terms of belief, or lack thereof in God/a god. If they're neutral, they can't be on one side or the other. They're not an atheist, or theist.
I have not created such a thread, so I'm not sure why you are broaching the topic with me, personally. I am not prepared to comment on the arguments of other individuals one way or another.
I'm not pinning this on you. I was merely confessing to a probable partial motivation for starting this thread.
In other words, there's probably a fairly subjective reason for a number of atheists to insist infants are atheists.
Not the abstract beliefs such as a belief in god. Once born their beliefs (such as they are) are limited direct interaction with the world and, even them, most of their responses are reflexive, not conscious and voluntary.
Again of course, I'm not claiming infants are theists. Not having the ability to form a god concept does not mean one doesn't experience a creator. Just as an animal (if you don't mind me referring to them) can experience a human without any bio-knowledge of them whatsoever.
Nothing is awful about it. It is just irrelevant to this conversation.
How would you know if you don't know what it means?
A belief in a god? Yes. I am sure about that. Infants lack the cognitive development to form such abstract beliefs. It takes well more than a yearfor children just to realize that other people are in fact other people (rather than extensions of themselves) yet we're going to place on them the burden to conceive and understand the concept of a god?
You're giving me a time span implying that forming an abstract belief would have to reach beyond the definition of childhood. At some point
any given person will have the ability to form such an abstract belief. At what age would you say would be the minimum requirement for this achievement?
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@RoderickSpode
The arguments seem strange here.
If we accept as true that children are born atheists,....
Then theists must have first come from an atheist convincing a child into theism! Any other option validates theism.
Why and how would an atheist have convinced someone that there was a God? It seems like the idea that children are only what they are trained to be is wrong, or else there would be no theists!
Since atheism is the absence of theism, there can be no atheists if there are no theists. The very fact that theists exist at all, is highly suggestive that God does exist, as it is unlikely that the first theists were made by atheists.
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@ethang5
That's just pure logic, plain and simple.
Everyone would be an atheist at birth. There would have to have been an original atheist evangelist converting other atheists to theism. And how could that be if that person was an atheist?
Although you've presented this in an easy way to understand, it requires a bit of thought, which is dangerous waters for a number of atheists. I don't think most of them are willing to put enough thought into that because it's just too dangerous.
I imagine they would rather resort to pulling the unproven claim that people considered as uncivilized concocted deities and gods to answer questions about natural events. Why would an atheist ponder such ideas in the first place? Someone with no conception of God/gods?
But we're to believe their idea that some atheist saw a lightning bolt, and concluded that "Ah! God/a god didit".
Isn't there a member here that likes to use the phrase "hello"?
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@drafterman
No atheism is not rejecting theism, it is a colledtion of ideas relating to rejecting religion, it is different
we can not go on with this defintion
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@Dr.Franklin
No atheism is not rejecting theism, it is a colledtion of ideas relating to rejecting religion, it is different
I'm not aware of this as a definition of atheism and it certainly isn't the one I've used or ever used.
we can not go on with this defintion
Science does, however, show us that infants lack the cognitive ability to form such abstract beliefs. No belief = no belief in a god = atheism.And science does not however disprove the existence of a creator. And thus does not disprove the many claims amongst humans throughout history of having an awareness of a creator. This is not ad populum in that I'm not claiming this to be proof of a creator. It does beg the question can one really claim this to be irrelevant in the argument for a creator?
The issue at hand is whether or not children start out as atheists, which is a discussion independent of there actually being a creator or not and related arguments.
Whether I agree with this is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.The conversation at hand is whether or not children have a belief in god when they are born. They do not. This has nothing to do with whether or not a god actually exists and whether or not said god can interact with those children.This is at least one of your statements where a misunderstanding takes place. The subject at hand is not whether or not children have a belief in God.
No, the subject at hand is whether or not children start out with a belief in God. They do not.
My opening statement was that I don't perceive them as atheists. I maintain the same view that DrFranklin takes. Infants are neutral interms of belief, or lack thereof in God/a god. If they're neutral, they can't be on one side or the other. They're not an atheist, or theist.
There is no neutral ground between atheism and theism. Atheism is the negation of theism.
In other words, there's probably a fairly subjective reason for a number of atheists to insist infants are atheists.
And a fairly objective one: they are atheists.
Nothing is awful about it. It is just irrelevant to this conversation.How would you know if you don't know what it means?
Because it was in reference to something of a relationship with a creator which this discussion is not about.
A belief in a god? Yes. I am sure about that. Infants lack the cognitive development to form such abstract beliefs. It takes well more than a yearfor children just to realize that other people are in fact other people (rather than extensions of themselves) yet we're going to place on them the burden to conceive and understand the concept of a god?You're giving me a time span implying that forming an abstract belief would have to reach beyond the definition of childhood. At some pointany given person will have the ability to form such an abstract belief. At what age would you say would be the minimum requirement for this achievement?
Around 5-6 to have the kind of abstract thoughts necessary.
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@drafterman
The issue at hand is whether or not children start out as atheists, which is a discussion independent of there actually being a creator or not and related arguments.
If they start out as atheists, for the one's who become theists, what changes their minds as they get older?
Where did the God concept come from if it's independent of the issue at hand?
This is at least one of your statements where a misunderstanding takes place. The subject at hand is not whether or not children have a belief in God.No, the subject at hand is whether or not children start out with a belief in God. They do not.
I'm the one who started the thread, and I can assure you it's not.
There is no neutral ground between atheism and theism. Atheism is the negation of theism.
Then how does an atheist become a theist?
In other words, there's probably a fairly subjective reason for a number of atheists to insist infants are atheists.And a fairly objective one: they are atheists.
Then where does theism originate from since atheism supposedly negates theism?
Because it was in reference to something of a relationship with a creator which this discussion is not about.
The God concept had to originate from somewhere. Why would you dismiss relationship (experiencing, awareness) as an origin?
Around 5-6 to have the kind of abstract thoughts necessary.
Just to make sure we're on the same page, you're saying that a 5-6 year old would be able to conceive of a creator without ever being taught the concept?
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@drafterman
The issue at hand is whether or not children start out as atheists, which is a discussion independent of there actually being a creator or not and related arguments.
Agreed. The idea that children start out as atheist is contradicted by the fact that there are theists! Reality contradicts you. I'm not saying that the existence of God refutes your idea, I'm saying the existence of theists refutes your idea. And I'm sure we both agree that theists can exist whether God exists or not.
It is obvious that children do not start out as atheists or theists. And if one proposes that they do all start out as atheists, one must then explain the existence of theists. Not God mind you, just theists.
The issue at hand is whether or not children start out as atheists, which is a discussion independent of there actually being a creator or not and related arguments.If they start out as atheists, for the one's who become theists, what changes their minds as they get older?
Generally speaking, kids will take for granted the lessons taught to them by their family and community. For specific answers, you'll have to ask a theist.
Where did the God concept come from if it's independent of the issue at hand?
That is not relevant to the conversation.
No, the subject at hand is whether or not children start out with a belief in God. They do not.I'm the one who started the thread, and I can assure you it's not.
The title of the thread is:
"Do children start out atheist?"
To which you opine that they do not. This is the topic at hand. If you would like to have a different topic, then we can do that in a different thread. I would prefer to keep the conversation in scope.
There is no neutral ground between atheism and theism. Atheism is the negation of theism.Then how does an atheist become a theist?
They are convinced, through some means, that a god or gods exist.
In other words, there's probably a fairly subjective reason for a number of atheists to insist infants are atheists.And a fairly objective one: they are atheists.Then where does theism originate from since atheism supposedly negates theism?
It comes from the belief in a god or gods.
Because it was in reference to something of a relationship with a creator which this discussion is not about.The God concept had to originate from somewhere. Why would you dismiss relationship (experiencing, awareness) as an origin?
Because this conversation is about whether or not children start out as atheists, which is independent from the origin of a god-concept altogether.
Around 5-6 to have the kind of abstract thoughts necessary.Just to make sure we're on the same page, you're saying that a 5-6 year old would be able to conceive of a creator without ever being taught the concept?
No, but that was not the question.
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@ethang5
Agreed. The idea that children start out as atheist is contradicted by the fact that there are theists! Reality contradicts you. I'm not saying that the existence of God refutes your idea, I'm saying the existence of theists refutes your idea. And I'm sure we both agree that theists can exist whether God exists or not.It is obvious that children do not start out as atheists or theists. And if one proposes that they do all start out as atheists, one must then explain the existence of theists. Not God mind you, just theists.
The existence of theists is explained through human's natural tendency toward superstition behavior, belief, and wishful or otherwise magical thinking. We attribute human or animal attributes to natural occurrences, thinking them to be living; we attribute causal relationships between random behaviors and natural events. All of these are ripe for invention, by humanity as a whole, of god-concepts. Which we have seen independently arise through countless of cultures over time. We are hard-wired for this kind of irrational thinking and, as a species, will naturally invent such concepts.
Children start out as atheists and are taught theism by existing theists, but I do admit that groups of humans will naturally tend toward theism (or similar religious/superstitious beliefs) as a matter of natural course. Atheism needs to be reinforced by rational and skeptical thinking.