Key takeaways from this election

Author: thett3

Posts

Total: 104
spacetime
spacetime's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 206
0
1
3
spacetime's avatar
spacetime
0
1
3
-->
@thett3
The GOP is in serious need of reform because a lot of their best qualities are the things they *don't* do. Certain elements on the left all but call for the extermination of Western society and culture. They claim that America is a white supremacist country, that white men are scum, that the police need to be systemically dismantled and replaced with social workers (lol), and they try to destroy the livelihoods of any who dare disagree with them. It's the culture warring stuff that makes voting Dem a complete non starter for me even though I think their actual policies tend to be better. I have self respect and I'll never throw my lot in with people like them.
Obviously, I agree that many of the ideas circulating on the far-left are dangerous, and that the people who support them shouldn't be allowed anywhere near positions of power. However, it simply isn't true that Democrat politicians are among those people. Even Bernie and AOC don't support that shit. Look at the actual policies they advocate on criminal justice and racial inequality. None of it is insane. Most of it is good and necessary. 




I don't know what foreign policy looks like in a future GOP, but if they follow Trump's footsteps they'll be heads and shoulders better than the Dem's on this issue. Recent presidents from both parties prior to Trump unleashed Hell on Earth in various portions of the globe, it's messed up that it just isn't discussed.
Trump is better on foreign policy than the establishment wing of the Democrat Party, but he's worse than the progressive wing.

He engaged in several unnecessary provocations that are inconsistent with the "America First" ethos, even if they didn't end up causing any serious conflict (i.e. the 2017 airstrike on Syria, the assassination of Soleimani, the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital). He massively expanded the U.S. drone war in the Middle East, and he provided Saudi Arabia with military aid for its genocide in Yemen. He failed to significantly reduce the number of U.S. troops stationed overseas, and he failed to meaningfully improve relations with Russia, Iran, or North Korea. 

I would 100% trust someone like Bernie or AOC to do much better.




Right now, the GOP is the party standing up for the working class when it comes to issues of trade and outsourcing, and facing down China. Dems have moved rapidly to the "elite" consensus that the complete economic devastation of vast swathes of the country is a fair price to pay for cheaper iPhones.
I'm gonna have to completely disagree here. Trump made a couple of flashy moves on trade, but they amounted to nothing -- outsourcing has actually gotten worse under his administration. Someone like Bernie or AOC would do a much better job of making substantive changes to U.S. trade policy. 

Furthermore, trade is not the only issue that's important to the working class. What about improving the affordability of major expenses like healthcare, housing, childcare, and education? What about regulating employers to guarantee fair wages and decent work/life balance? What about regulating banks and credit card companies to prevent them from ripping off unwary consumers? What about strengthening social safety nets so that we're prepared for the economic displacement inflicted by automation? What about creating blue-collar jobs through direct federal investment in infrastructure? What about getting money out of politics? The list goes on...

The sad reality is that Trump has fucking SUCKED on most working class issues. And it's not like he was obstructed by the Republican establishment -- he didn't even try! He went right along with their agenda, and actively *hurt* the working class with some of his deregulation bullshit. Literally any Democrat, including Hillary Clinton, would have been better for the working class than Trump was.

I voted for Trump in 2016 under the presumption that he was fundamentally different from the Republican establishment, and I really regret falling for it.



 
Also, mass immigration is really bad and needs to be stopped 
This is one of the only issues where I'll concede that Trump doesn't suck.
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@spacetime
Obviously, I agree that many of the ideas circulating on the far-left are dangerous, and that the people who support them shouldn't be allowed anywhere near positions of power. However, it simply isn't true that Democrat politicians are among those people. Even Bernie and AOC don't support that shit. Look at the actual policies they advocate on criminal justice and racial inequality. None of it is insane. Most of it is good and necessary. 
Not super related to your point but while I agree with you that ending the war on drugs and mass incarceration is the morally correct thing to do,  don’t think that there isn’t a cost. Mass incarceration is the reason that crime rates are low. It’s a blunt force instrument and the collateral damage is too severe in my opinion to be justified but the policies advocated by AOC and Bernie absolutely would result in an increase in crime. However the effect would be more marginal that republicans would say

As far as Bernie and AOC buying into far left ideas, they both support the green new deal, mass immigration, the idea that America is a racist and white supremacist country, etc. But of course they are better than the establishment—almost anyone is. They’re at least fighting for something besides enriching their paypigs. I like both of them 

I'm gonna have to completely disagree here. Trump made a couple of flashy moves on trade, but they amounted to nothing -- outsourcing has actually gotten worse under his administration. Someone like Bernie or AOC would do a much better job of making substantive changes to U.S. trade policy. 
It looks like a couple of “flashy moves” because you aren’t paying attention to what happened to China. China’s economy was hit hard by the trade war (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/charleswallace1/2019/08/09/trade-war-hurting-chinas-economy/amp/%3famp_js_v=0.1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%253D#ampf=). China was only able to retaliate with tariffs on things like soybeans because that’s all they buy from us...they have no leverage.  But I agree Trump didn’t fix everything. Reversing 50 years of policy in 4 years while the establishment fights you is pretty difficult. What’s more important is that he completely neutered decades of GOP orthodoxy. 

Furthermore, trade is not the only issue that's important to the working class. What about improving the affordability of major expenses like healthcare, housing, childcare, and education? What about regulating employers to guarantee fair wages and decent work/life balance? What about regulating banks and credit card companies to prevent them from ripping off unwary consumers? What about strengthening social safety nets so that we're prepared for the economic displacement inflicted by automation? What about creating blue-collar jobs through direct federal investment in infrastructure? What about getting money out of politics? The list goes on...
Yes, we’ve talked about this at length and i of course agree with you on all of this. Trump really screwed up BADLY by going with the GOP’s healthcare “plan” and tax cuts, no doubt about it. I would never deny that. And I can’t honestly say with certainty that outside of mass immigration which we both agree is HORRIBLE for the worker that the GOP is the better party. I suspect that it isn’t, but I’m such a cultural conservative that I just can’t vote dem. I just can’t. But I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do. 

The sad reality is that Trump has fucking SUCKED on most working class issues. And it's not like he was obstructed by the Republican establishment -- he didn't even try! He went right along with their agenda, and actively *hurt* the working class with some of his deregulation bullshit. Literally any Democrat, including Hillary Clinton, would have been better for the working class than Trump was.
Hold the phone...why is de regulation a bad thing? When the interests of capital and labor are at odds we should of course side with labor, but that doesn’t mean that everything that’s good for capital is bad for labor. Deregulation is why we have cheap airfare these days. If you want to see what hyper regulation looks like take a peak at California where it’s almost impossible to run a business. The sunset clause is a great thing, regulations should constantly be re evaluated. 

I understand that you’re disillusioned with Trump but if you think someone like Hillary would’ve been better...well, you’re about to find out the hard way just how wrong that is. People like Bush, McCain, Obama, the Clintons, Biden all enriched themselves and the top 1% beyond all imagination while the hollowing out of the working class continued/accelerated. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,022
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
Why do you think the house went in a hard-right direction and will likely flip in 2 years?
spacetime
spacetime's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 206
0
1
3
spacetime's avatar
spacetime
0
1
3
-->
@thett3
Not super related to your point but while I agree with you that ending the war on drugs and mass incarceration is the morally correct thing to do,  don’t think that there isn’t a cost. Mass incarceration is the reason that crime rates are low. It’s a blunt force instrument and the collateral damage is too severe in my opinion to be justified but the policies advocated by AOC and Bernie absolutely would result in an increase in crime. However the effect would be more marginal that republicans would say
Well, the idea isn't to just let criminals leave prison sooner. It's also about providing them with the educational and mental health resources they need to successfully reintegrate into society. The idealist in me would like to think that's more effective than mass-incarceration, but I recognize that it probably isn't.

It looks like a couple of “flashy moves” because you aren’t paying attention to what happened to China. China’s economy was hit hard by the trade war (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/charleswallace1/2019/08/09/trade-war-hurting-chinas-economy/amp/%3famp_js_v=0.1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%253D#ampf=). China was only able to retaliate with tariffs on things like soybeans because that’s all they buy from us...they have no leverage.  But I agree Trump didn’t fix everything. Reversing 50 years of policy in 4 years while the establishment fights you is pretty difficult. What’s more important is that he completely neutered decades of GOP orthodoxy. 
I'm aware that China got fucked over by the tariffs. But how much did that really achieve for the working class? I honestly can't tell.

It feels like the GOP is eagerly getting onboard with Trump's anti-trade schtick because it makes it easy for them to claim the PARTY OF THE WORKING CLASS mantle without actually doing jack shit for the working class -- just slap on some tariffs and claim victory.

Yes, we’ve talked about this at length and i of course agree with you on all of this. Trump really screwed up BADLY by going with the GOP’s healthcare “plan” and tax cuts, no doubt about it. I would never deny that. And I can’t honestly say with certainty that outside of mass immigration which we both agree is HORRIBLE for the worker that the GOP is the better party. I suspect that it isn’t, but I’m such a cultural conservative that I just can’t vote dem. I just can’t. But I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do. 
Yeah, I can sympathize with that. The Democrats really are terrible in a lot of ways. I just think Trump and the Republicans are much worse.

Hold the phone...why is de regulation a bad thing? When the interests of capital and labor are at odds we should of course side with labor, but that doesn’t mean that everything that’s good for capital is bad for labor. Deregulation is why we have cheap airfare these days. If you want to see what hyper regulation looks like take a peak at California where it’s almost impossible to run a business. The sunset clause is a great thing, regulations should constantly be re evaluated. 
I didn't say all deregulation is bad! I was referring to specific things Trump has done, like repealing the individual mandate and lowering the overtime pay threshold. 

I understand that you’re disillusioned with Trump but if you think someone like Hillary would’ve been better...well, you’re about to find out the hard way just how wrong that is. People like Bush, McCain, Obama, the Clintons, Biden all enriched themselves and the top 1% beyond all imagination while the hollowing out of the working class continued/accelerated. 
Even if all President Hillary Clinton did was implement one or two of her major policy proposals (e.g. creating a public health insurance option, making community college tuition-free, expanding the child tax credit), that would still have made her better for the working class than Trump. 

Like, I'm honestly just in complete awe of how badly Trump squandered these past 4 years.


thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@spacetime
Well, the idea isn't to just let criminals leave prison sooner. It's also about providing them with the educational and mental health resources they need to successfully reintegrate into society. The idealist in me would like to think that's more effective than mass-incarceration, but I recognize that it probably isn't
Yeah no I agree. But a lot of people are beyond rehabilitation. Some were long before they were imprisoned, some of them were made that way by the system. It’s the latter group that’s the most morally dicey, no clue what should be done for/to them

But really we totally agree on this...the American prison system is a total travesty (who decided that prison should be the ONLY penalty anyway???) and I hate the “LOCK EM UP THROW AWAY THE KEY” mindset. Not only is that counter productive,  there are way too many people in prisons who are INNOCENT!

I'm aware that China got fucked over by the tariffs. But how much did that really achieve for the working class? I honestly can't tell.

It feels like the GOP is eagerly getting onboard with Trump's anti-trade schtick because it makes it easy for them to claim the PARTY OF THE WORKING CLASS mantle without actually doing jack shit for the working class -- just slap on some tariffs and claim victory.
Re: the trade war...the leverage against China allows future leaders to extract serious concessions which is desperately needed considering how much of their business model is just straight up stealing our intellectual property, manipulating their currency, etc. There’s been a one sided trade war for decades now, but our political class preferred to pretend that playing free trade with a protectionist country was possible. 

That’s true. There is a risk of “the establishment” co opting the issue and acting ineffectually on it as cover to continue screwing over normal Americans. That’s why I think the 2024 GOP primary is so important (and the dem on if they have one)...imagine something like Hawley vs Sanders 2024...would be amazing. Hopefully we’re not more likely to end up with Nikki Haley vs. Harris and the media will gush about how its two “women of color” haha 

I didn't say all deregulation is bad! I was referring to specific things Trump has done, like repealing the individual mandate and lowering the overtime pay threshold
I have mixed feelings on the individual mandate so I won’t agree or disagree with you here. What’s the overtime thing? 

Even if all President Hillary Clinton did was implement one or two of her major policy proposals (e.g. creating a public health insurance option, making community college tuition-free, expanding the child tax credit), that would still have made her better for the working class than Trump.
Trump DID expand the child tax credit! Making community college tuition free is like applying a band aid that doesn’t even stick to an amputated leg. Community college tuition already is very cheap, the problem is predatory four year colleges and financial institutions that will loan an 18 year old fifty grand for an English degree. And on a broader level the problem is making everyone go to college in the first place. Changing that requires building an economy like Germany’s where there’s still an industrial base and lots of well paying blue collar jobs. That takes a concerted effort from leadership over decades and it’s something that people like the Clintons and the Bush’s are firmly against. Trump is just the beginning

I’ll give you healthcare, I have problems with the Dems plans on healthcare but the GOP just doesn’t have a plan at all. 

Like, I'm honestly just in complete awe of how badly Trump squandered these past 4 years.
Ehh presidencies tend to be disappointing. Second terms even more so, which is why I really wasn’t too upset about the loss. He made a lot of extraordinarily dumb moves but you’ll find that about every president (look at how easily led astray Bush and Obama were in foreign policy.) 

I have mixed feelings on Trump because I think he was far and away the best president of my lifetime while also being a giant disappointment lol 
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@Greyparrot
Why do you think the house went in a hard-right direction and will likely flip in 2 years?

In midterm elections, Presidents below 50% approval see their party lose an average of 37 House seats. Presidents above 50% approval see their party lose an average of 14 House seats. So statistically speaking Dems are likely to lose somewhere between 14 and 37 seats depending on Joe Biden's approval, and Republicans will probably need to win fewer than 10 seats to gain a slight majority in 2022. Since the 1950s, the presidential party has lost an average of 27 House seats in midterm elections. Ergo it's extremely likely the GOP flips no matter what. I could see a loss of 30+ seats as of now. 



Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,022
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Danielle
Why do you think the house went in a hard-right direction in 2020?
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@Greyparrot
Why do you think the house went in a hard-right direction in 2020?
I'm not surprised the GOP flipped 9 seats in the House, with 7 of them being women (as I said I find it hilarious the party which  pretends to hate identity politics has been touting how many gains they've made with female and minority reps). A lot of those seats went blue in 2018 only because a lot of people came out to vote against Trump. I was one of them. 2018 was the first time I've ever voted for a Democrat in my life, and my congressional district is one that switched from red to blue. This year with Trump being back on the ballot, I knew my district would go back to red. The GOP campaigned against The Squad to take back some House seats and it worked like a charm. 
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Danielle
I'll take your word that Exit Polls are unreliable, but increased Hispanic turnout in one city doesn't mean Trump has the support of most Hispanics across the country. I still haven't seen any evidence to that effect.  Latinos are not a unified voting bloc and tend to vote per geographic location just like white people do. It also tends to be Latino men that support Trump and it's for similar reasons that white men love Trump: his disgusting personality lol. It's that brash, crass, in your face, IDGAF attitude that people find appealing which they have repeatedly said over and over when asked why they support President Trump, so pretending it's about policy is disingenuous IMO, especially since Trump has been so politically ineffective. 
It's true that Latinos are a very diverse bunch and some groups swung harder than others. But it isn't just one city...it's everywhere. Trump did better in the hispanic areas of cities across the country such as, Miami, Houston, LA, Phoenix, and Chicago as well as rural hispanic areas like the Rio Grande Valley, Imperial CA, Yuma and Santa Cruz in Arizona, etc. I'll be really interested to see what percentage the voter file analysis says he won, it was probably around 40%.

And yeah, there is certainly some truth to the idea that Trump's bravado/attitude appeals to hispanic men...he is kinda like a Latin American politician in a sense. But look. Republicans down the ballot also improved with the Hispanic vote. The country is becoming less polarized by race and more polarized by class, and ultimately Hispanics generally have more in common with the kinds of whites shifting right (working class whites) than those shifting left (upper middle class whites.) It will be very interesting to see what happens in the future, while the class polarization is a bad thing the GOP becoming more diverse racially and intellectually would be a pretty good thing for the country. You're actually right in a sense, it isn't really about *policy* as much as it's about the next phase of the culture war. But the shift is very real IMO.


It's undeniable that we had a pretty strong economy these last few years. One thing I think is interesting about the report you shared being from 2016-2019 is that Trump did not  take office until 2017, meaning 33% of the data considered for that report isn't even applicable to Trump's presidency. I also think it's worth noting that Trump has ripped Fed Chairman Jerome Powell a new asshole at every single turn and has done nothing but heap criticism at him while simultaneously taking credit for the booming economy. 

Regarding tax cuts, those did not take effect until 2018. So by that time, unemployment had already dropped, household incomes had already increased, and millions of new jobs had already been created per the report. Therefore it's not honest for the GOP to credit the tax cuts for any of those achievements.  They were already underway and there was no measured relationship between the size of the tax cut companies received and their subsequent investments as far as I can tell. 
Yeah but I was talking about the political implications of the economy. I think President's alone don't really have that much power over the economy, but they typically get the credit/blame anyway. I think the best thing Trump did for the worker that an establishment politician wouldn't do is that he refused to loosen visa restrictions when we were at "full employment" early in his term. Turns out we weren't, the unemployment rate just kept falling and the working class experienced outsized gains thanks to a tighter labor market. However, had Clinton won, we absolutely would not have been looking at economic devastation. I'm honest enough to admit that the economy would've been good if she was President and it'll probably be good under Biden once we have the coronavirus recovery. 

As for the tax cuts, it's complicated but in my opinion the high corporate tax really was a big impediment to incorporating in the United States (yes, there were tons of loopholes, but still.) However the bill in general sucked, it barely helped the working and middle classes and gave a big advantage to the wealthy. That aspect of GOP policy is really disgusting to me, because it's obvious by now that trickle down economics don't work. A better bill would have done the unpopular but necessary corporate tax cuts but would've offset it through much higher taxes on high personal incomes. 

Furthermore similar gains could have been made years earlier had it not been for an insanely obstructionist Republican Congress. Obama repeatedly tried to get Republicans to sign on to additional spending and tax cuts for the middle and lower class, but the GOP refused every single time. You had Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell, et. al insist that higher deficits were philosophically unacceptable and financially ruinous. Even when the Obama admin proposed a moderate stimulus plan in 2016 that would have targeted infrastructure, Republicans would not budge. However under Trump the GOP has presided over the largest two-year deficit in U.S. history outside of a recession with no care in the world. You really think they're going to continue that philosophy once a Dem administration is back? I don't but we shall see.
Yeah, the GOP played Obama very dirty, no doubt about it. I'm concerned about the debt as a long term issue, but in the short term large deficit spending so obviously juices the economy. As soon as a Democrat gets in, time for austerity! I think democrats fight better on the cultural front, but Republicans have much better politicians. You have to admire McConnell for how effective he is (and notice also how he squeezed Trump for absolutely everything he was worth to "the party")

Almost everyone acknowledges that it is notoriously hard to convict a cop, and that unions + other systemic policies make it hard to get rid of bad cops. But nobody ever wants to budge on policy. I don't want to hear "of course we need to get rid of bad apples" ever again. I want to know what policy changes, specifically, are being promoted, implemented and enforced. I don't want to live in a society without police either (even though I was very much of the ACAB philosophy and  still maybe kinda sorta am). I don't think any cop is blameless under the status quo because of the thin blue line / blue wall of silence, plus just the inherent nature of police business. I resent the fact that off duty cops can drive around going 90 mph on their cell phone with marijuana on them and nobody's going to think twice about it. Maybe that's childish of me but I watch too many documentaries and have had too many personal experiences and observations to let it go. Of course I think decriminalizing drugs would have a great impact on policing but I know you probably disagree. 
I agree with everything you said, including decriminalizing drugs, but I think you underestimate how dangerous the anti-police rhetoric can be. I have serious concerns about the future of policing as a career field...what kind of person from my generation would WANT to be a cop? If the culture makes the police out to be violent sociopaths, only  violent sociopath is going to want to become a cop and the problem is going to get a lot worse. I also feel uncomfortable demonizing the police because of the many good police officers out there. But please don't take this as me trying to paper over the issues with American policing because I think you'd be surprised at how little we disagree here...I agree 100% with everything you said

Honestly I think police reform stuff is the issue where the parties most talk past each other. The things that people of both parties believe really aren't that different, generally speaking. Some of the reforms already made, like body cams becoming more and more common, are objectively good

Nick Sandmann spoke at the RNC and won a lawsuit for millions of dollars.  His negative experience with the media did not usher him into obscurity, but instead promoted him to fame and fortune beyond his wildest dreams. How is he the poster child for Cancel Culture then?
I mean, Sandmann was a child who got death threats from celebrities for awkwardly standing in the vicinity of a Native American man. The media flew too close to the sun in telling lies about and doxxing a child over literally nothing. In his case he got justice because it was just that egregious--but the fact that they went after him despite him being a child and there being no evidence for his alleged "crimes" is a great example of the worst kind of instincts social media brings out in people. Most of the time the person being "canceled" really was being a shithead but the punishment never fits the crime--I just don't believe that somebody should be unable to feed their family because they said something uncouth during an argument. I've always hated "viral videos" of people, even before it got political and it was mostly people doing silly/stupid things...imagine if your most embarrassing or worst moment was caught on film and broadcast to tens of millions of people...

I have mixed feelings on this. Some conservatives I know are cheering the decline of NBA ratings since players have gotten "too political." Whether or not that's true doesn't matter so much as their perception that calls for NBA boycotts are working. They definitely TRY to utilize and implement Cancel Culture just as much as liberals. For instance conservatives go ape shit when Disney threatens to even hint that a character might not be straight. I mean Disney is still going strong of course,  but conservatives absolutely act like whiney snowflakes who call for Cancellations over things they don't like. It's probs not as effective in part because it's hard to mount a PR campaign against liberal causes. What are they gonna say: "stop being so inclusive and uplifting!" 

Yeah, I would never deny that conservatives can be whiny bitches about things they don't like in media or business. I deny that they are *effective* at it and that they commonly go after random, normal leftists in the same way that progressives do when people step out of line.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,022
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Danielle
 (as I said I find it hilarious the party which pretends to hate identity politics has been touting how many gains they've made with female and minority reps).

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,022
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Danielle
 His negative experience with the media did not usher him into obscurity, but instead promoted him to fame and fortune beyond his wildest dreams. How is he the poster child for Cancel Culture then?

He is a poster child because he used the authority of the courts to fight back against the corporate media cancellation of him for wearing a Maga hat while having white skin and a smile. It shows that there can be justice for ideological cancellations in a nation that supposedly supports free expression.

7 days later

Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@thett3
It's true that Latinos are a very diverse bunch and some groups swung harder than others. But it isn't just one city...it's everywhere.

I have no doubt that more Latinos swung for Trump in 2020 than they ever have for Republicans before - I just don't believe that Trump received the majority of the Latino or black vote. Whites will be a minority within the next few decades (probably not in positions of power or money though) so I think it's inevitable for the country to become less polarized by race and more by class as demographics shift. But I'm still wondering to what extent geography plays a role. I'm not convinced that Puerto Ricans in the Bronx getting by on food stamps are gonna be gung-ho for Trump based on his trade policies with China, nah mean?  

To a lot of people a disregard for government guaranteed healthcare is a sign they don't care about the poor. I think it will be hard for the GOP to position itself as champions for the poor and working class when they're so opposed to funding things like education, social programs or institutions aimed at establishing some kind of equity for the disenfranchised. The GOP was successful among poor whites for a very long time by mounting a culture war against the left. Trump was the Republican comeuppance for decades of policy that told the poor it was their fault for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. It'll be interesting to see if the GOP can win going forward when it's not resting on the laurels of anti abortion rhetoric. If it's true that people will be less divided based on race (and LGBT issues) going forward, I'm fascinated to see if/how the party shifts from here. I don't see why there wouldn't be a rift in the GOP between populists and capitalists like there is in the Democrat Party between progressives and moderates. 

 I think the best thing Trump did for the worker that an establishment politician wouldn't do is that he refused to loosen visa restrictions 
That is probably true. I agree with everything you said about presidents and the economy. Amusingly I just came across this post from April. 

 You have to admire McConnell for how effective he is (and notice also how he squeezed Trump for absolutely everything he was worth to "the party")

Lol I admire Nancy Pelosi for (historically) being effective as well, though there is no doubt Mitch McConnell is *chef's kiss*


What kind of person from my generation would WANT to be a cop?

I can answer that :P 

If the culture makes the police out to be violent sociopaths, only  violent sociopath is going to want to become a cop and the problem is going to get a lot worse. I also feel uncomfortable demonizing the police because of the many good police officers out there.

The only reason I get "ACAB" is because of the blue wall of silence. I understand where you're coming from, but if there is a precinct with 100 cops and only 2 of them are bad then there are actually 100 bad cops in that precinct. There's no reason bad cops should be allowed to stick around and the "brotherhood" mentality that looks to protect and serve fellow cops more than the public is why I'm comfortable with sweeping generalizations that I otherwise would not be.

Have you seen the Netflix documentary Trial 4? There are so many good ones just like it, but that's the one that's trending now. 

I also think the concept of demonizing cops is a myth. Most of society just doesn't do that and in fact does the exact opposite, which is why the phrase Blue Lives Matter almost infuriates me (while I understand the innocent ignorance behind All Lives Matter). We agree it's notoriously hard to convict a cop. Blue Lives are revered, prioritized and sanctified in our culture. Cops have more legal power than the vast majority of citizens. Their word is almost always believed in court and taken at face value, period. If a cop is assaulted or killed, not just the cops but the entire criminal justice system RALLIES and devotes an insane amount of resources to find and prosecute the offender. You get higher penalties for going after a cop then you would an ordinary citizen, and there is a massive funeral accompanied by pomp and circumstance if a cop is killed. Thousands attend, candle lit vigils are held, it makes the nightly news, and your family gets special survivor compensation benefits. Compared to the way an average, or worse POOR black person in society is treated when they are the victim of a crime or killing makes it just utterly nonsensical and so disrespectful to utter the phrase "Blue Lives Matter" in any type of analogous reference. 

As I said, I firmly believe if there was actual change and reform then a lot of the anti-cop rhetoric would go away. I also think you can make an argument to the "Defund" crowd for increasing resources to cops -- those people don't tend to be against government funding. One option I've heard is to make law enforcement a highly respected, lucrative career by increasing the salary and requirements needed. I'd imagine this kind of change might not be necessary all over the country and believe that so long as we have more transparency and accountability a lot will change. The police unions, especially in big cities just have way too much power. So it doesn't bother me that so many are attacking them as an institution even though I agree not all individuals are bad. I just really want to see positive change here and care increasingly less how it comes about. 

I just don't believe that somebody should be unable to feed their family because they said something uncouth during an argument.

We probs agree very much on this. It's just that since conservatives are the ones who are generally pro discrimination, it's hard for me to accept Cancel Culture as a "leftist" issue.  The fact that conservatives are not very effective at it  is great (outside of legal victories for "religious freedom") but I'm still pretty annoyed by it.

There was a poll done last Summer which found an extraordinary number of people from BOTH parties believe that you should be able to fire someone merely if they donated to Trump or Biden. I could look it up later when I'm not busy. If you want another egregious example of Cancel Culture for your arsenal though, you should look up the professor who was fired from USC for saying the Chinese word "nega"  lol. It's the most insane one I've heard. 


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,022
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Danielle
As I said, I firmly believe if there was actual change and reform then a lot of the anti-cop rhetoric would go away.
Defund and dismantle public unions.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,022
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Danielle
There was a poll done last Summer which found an extraordinary number of people from BOTH parties believe that you should be able to fire someone merely if they donated to Trump or Biden.
This is the inevitable consequence when you escalate social canceling from democratic legislation to the level of mob intimidation and monopolistic corporate shakedowns and then justify this with whataboutisms.

Flippant whataboutism only encourages this extreme behavior from all sides.