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@Tradesecret
It was John who performed the miracle of bringing Jesus therefore John did the miracle that allowed Jesus to perform the miracles that he did.
Whatever Did Herod Mean?
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@ethang5
Nothing to be sorry about. Appears we're both persona non grata. So be it.
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@Utanity
It was John who performed the miracle of bringing Jesus therefore John did the miracle that allowed Jesus to perform the miracles that he did.
What does that even mean?
Is your logic the following:
John the Baptist announced Jesus was coming.
Jesus came. Therefore his coming was a miracle. And therefore a miracle of John.
If that is the situation - why attribute Jesus' personal miracles to John as well?
In any event - Stephen already provided the verses that said John the Baptist did not do any miracles. So you are incorrect.
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@fauxlaw
I am flattered by the association.
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@Utanity
It was John who performed the miracle of bringing Jesus therefore John did the miracle that allowed Jesus to perform the miracles that he did.
Show me how the Baptist "brought" Jesus. Jesus went to John to be baptized, but Jesus had to convince John to do it. Seems he who did the "bringing" was Jesus.
Show me that Jesus did not perform the miracle at Cana, but recognize these facts, first:
1. The miracle at the wedding feast in Cana is in the Gospel of John, but that is John the Beloved, not the Baptist. The Baptist is apparently not even in attendance; he is not mentioned.
2. Verse 11 clearly indicates it is Jesus who performs the miracle.
3. We are clearly told there are six pots, each capable of containing 2 - 3 firkins. A firkin is the equivalent of 41 liters [11 gal], or 82 to 123 liters each - not a small amount of wine, and that's just one of 6 pots. Must have been a big crowd, and a big miracle.I suppose you think the Baptist also fed the 5,000 with two fish and five loaves - and had 12 backets of leftovers after all had eaten their fill.
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@ethang5
Stop it. You'll make me cry.
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@Tradesecret
All the Bible says is that John did not perform any miracles per say but the Bible didn't mention that the fact is it was a miracle that John brought Jesus and baptized him. Therefore, it had to be a miracle even though the Bible didn't say so.
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@Utanity
All the Bible says is that John did not perform any miracles per say but the Bible didn't mention that the fact is it was a miracle that John brought Jesus and baptized him. Therefore, it had to be a miracle even though the Bible didn't say so.
John the Baptist did not bring Jesus. Jesus freely came to John and John did not even want to baptize Jesus. This is not a miracle.
John baptizing Jesus was not a miracle. The voice of God - from heaven was not a miracle of John's. John did not make it happen.
You are with great respect living in fantasy land.
You however said that even though Jesus made wine - that it was John's miracle. What did you mean by that?
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@ethang5
Nope....Love the topic.
Objective logic is seemingly a truism....though I don't think that it actually is.
Who decides what is and isn't objective, in a mythological context?
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@zedvictor4
Logic decides.
People who pretend truth cannot be found because liars exist are probably liars themselves.
Logic exists precisely because people have different points of view.
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@ethang5
Why are you afraid of me being on your threads?
What ever gave you that idea. you think far too highly of yourself. I am not afraid you. You simply have added you pointless input and now you have no reason to be on this thread.
Of course ,if you want to carry one with your pointless comments I couldn't stop you if I wanted.et
Your wrong because Jesus did miracels in John and then they came out of him. Jesus made the wine then he gave it to John and John did the miracle so that means your wrong.John did not perform any miracles. Duh!
Well Herod is proving you totally wrong. Herod claims that these "miracles" that John had once performed were "now showing in him" [Jesus] .
You can dance around that all day. I don't bother me. It is there it is in the bible and the bible is "never wrong" according to you Christians although its full of ambiguous statements and half told stories.
HERE have another stab at it. I have highlighted a the relevant parts for you
Now, after the death of John the Baptist King Herod on hearing about these so called miraculous wonders being performed by Jesus (he had never met him personally at this point Luke 23:8) appears to be frightened out of his skin. Why?
Well because the bible states this:
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
14 And king Herod heard of him [Jesus]; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus].
15 Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets.
16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.
>>>>>. So what are the "mighty works" that John performed that are now - by Herod's own words - manifesting themselves "in him"/ Jesus? <<<<<
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@Tradesecret
Yes, I think you misunderstand.
John Brought Jesus to the people right. And that was a miracle, even though the Bible did not say it was it did not say that it was not a miracle. Also, all the miracles that Jesus did were in the book of John which is about the miracles by Jesus.
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@Utanity
Yes, I think you misunderstand.John Brought Jesus to the people right. And that was a miracle, even though the Bible did not say it was it did not say that it was not a miracle. Also, all the miracles that Jesus did were in the book of John which is about the miracles by Jesus.
Ok. You are incorrect though.
John DID not bring Jesus to the people. John announced him to the people. Quite a different thing. This was not a miracle. It is not described as one because it is not one. The bible does not call it one. No one really thinks it is. You are the only person I have ever tried to suggest it was a miracle. You alone in all of the world.
Jesus' miracles are described and mentioned in all of the Gospels. Mark 1: 29 - 34; Mark 1: 40 -42; Mark 2:1-12 is another. And the miracles keep going throughout all of the gospel.
Have you ever actually sat down and read Mark? Try it. The best way to do is to stop and give yourself - about 2 hours. Then sit down with a cuppa and start reading - and read it out loud. It was written to be read out loud. Mark is the easiest of the gospels to read - and the shortest. The tradition is that John Mark, who wrote the book used Peter as his primary source. And try to read it in one sitting.
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@Utanity
If the words of bible are to be believed then John had once been performing the same stunts that Jesus was now performing. The bible make that clear.
14 And king Herod heard of him [Jesus]; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus].
So the question has to be :
>>>>>. what are the "mighty works" that John performed that are now - by Herod's own words - manifesting themselves "in him"/ Jesus? <<<<<
One has to remember Utanity, that the Reverend Tradesecret wasn't there and neither was ethang5. But Herod was wasn't he? He was right there, amongst all the death and turmoil that Jesus ' appearance had caused.
And remember too that Herod knew John personally. He liked to talk to him and he even protected him.. It never mentions who he was protecting him from , maybe Jesus or his rival disciples? Who knows?
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@Tradesecret
Ok. You are incorrect though.
As Stephen said, you were not there so how do you know. And if John announced Jesus to the people then he must have brought him there.
You got everything wrong I think.
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@Stephen
If the words of bible are to be believed then John had once been performing the same stunts that Jesus was now performing. The bible make that clear.14 And king Herod heard of him [Jesus]; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus].
You do realise that King Herod is talking about Jesus. Herod was feeling so guilt about killing John the Baptist that he feared he had come back from the dead. This verse does not say John has risen from the dead. Nor does it say that John had done mighty works. It is ONLY the words of King Herod commenting about Jesus and fearing that John had come back to haunt him. Herod was guilty to the core - his conscious was getting to him. The mighty works he is talking about here in this verse don't even refer to John they refer to Jesus.
In Herod's mind - John had come back from the dead and Jesus' miracles or mighty works were convincing him that he HEROD was stuffed. That is all this verse is saying. To try and draw a doctrine out of an obscure verse - is foolish and naive. It is not sensible and put you on the same level as David Koresh.
So the question has to be :>>>>>. what are the "mighty works" that John performed that are now - by Herod's own words - manifesting themselves "in him"/ Jesus? <<<<<
Done and dusted Stephen. The bible itself declared John performed no miracles. You are attempting to base a faulty doctrine on one verse. And that verse is an obscure verse which is King Herod talking out of fear. Not one of the characters in the rest of the story confirms your dodgy position. When people try and make a doctrine from an obscure verse talking about something else to try and make a point - it really shows the level of their understanding of reality.
One has to remember Utanity, that the Reverend Tradesecret wasn't there and neither was ethang5. But Herod was wasn't he? He was right there, amongst all the death and turmoil that Jesus ' appearance had caused.And remember too that Herod knew John personally. He liked to talk to him and he even protected him.. It never mentions who he was protecting him from , maybe Jesus or his rival disciples? Who knows?
King Herod was an adulterer. John the Baptist called him out. Herod had him killed because of his own lust for own daughter. You would take the word of an incestuous adulterer over the gospels? I don't need to be there to be able to read what was written. And Herod does not back up what you say anyway. That is nonsense. Did Herod know John - probably - I think they did talk - I think it is even possible that Herod was starting to listen to John - yet in the end - and because Herod believed John was a prophet of God, after he got drunk and lusted after his own daughter - and then gave into her desires - he killed John.
Herod stuffed up. He knew John was a prophet. That is all he needed to know to fear that God would judge him. And it ripped his heart out. When he saw Jesus - he pretty much out of guilt - figured Jesus was John coming back to haunt him. One thing people know about ghosts is that they do inhuman things - mighty things. Things they could not do when they were alive.
Herod killed John. If Herod really believed John could do miracles while he was alive would not kill him. Herod might have been immoral - but not dumb. Herod did not have to witness miracles to know John was a prophet. But if he killed John, and he came back alive - then miracles and mighty works would be expected of a ghost. Jesus in one sense played this part for Herod. Herod saw Jesus - who may well have looked like his cousin - IDK really. But Herod saw Jesus and thought John. And he saw Jesus' miracles - and thought "@#$%/. Now I am in for it.
Guilt plays nasty games with people's minds. But that does not make his paranoia truth. And what you are attempting to do is to take his paranoia and pretend it is more truthful than what the gospel writers themselves say about John. This is the essence of fake news that you are doing. Hence - once again you are revealed as a FRAUD.
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@fauxlaw
Show me how the Baptist "brought" Jesus. Jesus went to John to be baptized, but Jesus had to convince John to do it. Seems he who did the "bringing" was Jesus.
But John announced Jesus therefore he must have brought him there to do miracles and since all the miracles are in the book of John then that must mean something.
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@Tradesecret
You do realise that King Herod is talking about Jesus.
Of course I do.
Herod ( despite the fact Jesus and John were once alive at the same time) believed that John had returned and somehow possessed Jesus and " therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus]. And it is Herod's very first thought on hearing about the "miracles" Jesus was now performing.
Now whether this possession was true or false is not the point. Herod, it shows, had reason to believe it was John specifically because of what he heard about Jesus
You are either dense or refusing to see the obvious question that this enigmatic and ambiguous statement raises.
What are the "mighty works" that John performed that are now - by Herod's own words - manifesting themselves "in him"/ Jesus?
Herod had never met Jesus at this point. But he had though met John, and knew him well. He loved to converse with him. The bible even tells us that Herod protected John. So these " mighty works" instantly reminded Herod of John.
The rest of your post is utter clap trap made up on the hoof . Who wrote it for you? It is not coming across as your usual blundering stammering syntax, it is more garbled than is usual for you. Your qualifications are letting to down Reverend.
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@Utanity
since all the miracles are in the book of John
Evidence that you have not read even all the New Testament, let alone the Old. Read all of it. You need context and you don't have it. The Gospel of John is NOT John the Baptist. As I said, it is John the Beloved, one of the Apostles.
All of the miracles are NOT just in John., but are in all the Synoptic Gospels; Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as well. For a quick look, since that appears to be the level of your research, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Jesus But that's just in the Gospels. You'll find miracles in Acts [such as Christ's ascension, and the Apostles speaking in tongues, and Christ's appearance to Saul [Paul]]...
John the Baptist does not have a book attributed to him. READ with comprehension. Otherwise, the effort is useless. The whole bloody volume. When you have finished, read it again. And again. You think a first read is sufficient? In other languages would help, too. Better closer to the source than English.
You think I'm kidding, don't you? Nope. I wouldn't ask you to do anything I have not already done.
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@Utanity
Show me how the Baptist "brought" Jesus. Jesus went to John to be baptized, but Jesus had to convince John to do it. Seems he who did the "bringing" was Jesus.But John announced Jesus therefore he must have brought him there to do miracles and since all the miracles are in the book of John then that must mean something.
It is your assertion. It is up to you to prove it.
The Gospels on the other hand, indicate that John was baptizing and then Jesus turned up later. It is no different in some sense to me hearing that a good speaker was visiting the area, and I wanted to go and have a look. That would not be considered a miracle.
And the book of John was not written by John the Baptist. The book of John is traditionally attributed to John the Son of Zebedee, brother of James.
And the miracles of Jesus are recorded in ALL of the Gospels, not just Mark.
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@Stephen
You do realise that King Herod is talking about Jesus.Of course I do.Herod ( despite the fact Jesus and John were once alive at the same time) believed that John had returned and somehow possessed Jesus and " therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus]. And it is Herod's very first thought on hearing about the "miracles" Jesus was now performing.Now whether this possession was true or false is not the point. Herod, it shows, had reason to believe it was John specifically because of what he heard about JesusYou are either dense or refusing to see the obvious question that this enigmatic and ambiguous statement raises.What are the "mighty works" that John performed that are now - by Herod's own words - manifesting themselves "in him"/ Jesus?Herod had never met Jesus at this point. But he had though met John, and knew him well. He loved to converse with him. The bible even tells us that Herod protected John. So these " mighty works" instantly reminded Herod of John.
Just because you keep repeating the same question - does not make it a good question or even a question that arises from the passage. The verse DOES not say that John performed mighty works. You can conjecture all you like - but it simply is not there.
Herod was clearly speaking out of guilt - which made him completely paranoia. A superstition king who believed in ghosts - A little like Macbeth really. John could not hurt him while he was alive - clearly if Herod thought he could - he would not have killed him. Yet, now that he has killed him unjustly, his guilt has tripped him into paranoia. The words in this passage are recording his paranoia. They are not recording that John had come back from the dead and they are not recording that John had previously done mighty works. Herod saw Jesus - and flipped his wig.
For you to speculate is entirely up to yourself - but that is the most you can do. For others, like me to say - your speculation is nonsense is not avoiding the question and it is not saying we don't have an answer - it is saying - we think you are incorrect and that you have absolutely nothing. You are like you do on lots of other occasions, trying to build a doctrine - a dodgy one at that - on a passage which is clearly not saying what you are suggesting and in fact contradicts other passages in the bible - passages which you know about.
You call me rude. That's why you're blocked, my friend. Have a civil tongue. Your thread is in a free country on a free site. Have some respect; I'll unblock
lol you got flamed stephen
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@ethang5
yeah and miracles are a sign of gods power so even if john the baptist made miracles, it would be through god
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@Stephen
Why are you afraid of me being on your threads?
What ever gave you that idea.
Your constantly asking me to leave your threads.
Herod claims that these "miracles" that John had once performed were "now showing in him"
Only your poor reading comprehension claims that.
TradeSecret - You do realise that King Herod is talking about Jesus.
Stephen - Of course I do.
Herod ( despite the fact Jesus and John were once alive at the same time) believed that John had returned and somehow possessed Jesus and " therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus]. And it is Herod's very first thought on hearing about the "miracles" Jesus was now performing.
Then the "mighty works" Hero's alludes to are attributed to Jesus, whom Hero's thinks is the risen John. You even specify [Jesus] in brackets above.
Reading comprehension Stephen.
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@Tradesecret
Just because you keep repeating the same question - does not make it a good question or even a question that arises from the passage.
Stephen totally disagrees with you on this. He thinks if he keeps repeating something, it becomes true.
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@Tradesecret
Just because you keep repeating the same question - does not make it a good question or even a question that arises from the passage.
It is a question that you simply cannot answer (not without admitting the truth) no matter how much you attempt to ignore an bury it.
Is all you have to do is answer the question or tell us what Herod meant. That is the whole point of this thread , did you miss the title?
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
14 And king Herod heard of him [Jesus]; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus].
15 Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets.
16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.
So what were the "mighty works" that John had performed for them to be now "showing forth themselves in Jesus"?
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@Stephen
or tell us what Herod meant. That is the whole point of this thread , did you miss the title?
I have now on at least two separate occasions told you what he meant.
Can't you read?
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@Tradesecret
or tell us what Herod meant. That is the whole point of this thread , did you miss the title?I have
Stop being silly. You have answered nothing. Conjecture and what you think, assume, and believe doesn't count for anything.
Biblical facts is what you need Reverend. Facts that you, with all your qualifications, should be able to put your hands on immediately.
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@Tradesecret
Told you....
Lol.
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@Stephen
Stop being silly. You have answered nothing. Conjecture and what you think, assume, and believe doesn't count for anything.Biblical facts is what you need Reverend. Facts that you, with all your qualifications, should be able to put your hands on immediately.
Why would I want to stop being silly - after all you are my great model for silliness. LOL! You make me laugh and smile at your quick wit and creative innovations that nobody else can see. I am constantly amazed at the "secret knowledge" that you alone are privy to.