Whatever Did Herod Mean?

Author: Stephen

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#1
Stephen
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Jesus, it is said , performed 7 miracles also referred to as the 7 signs ( some argue he performed more) but for convenience and further argument we will stay with the now famous and most popular, those being;


  1. Changing water into wine at Cana in John 2:1-11 - "the first of the signs"
  2. Healing the royal official's son in Capernaum in John 4:46-54
  3. Healing the paralytic at Bethesda in John 5:1-15
  4. Feeding the 5000 in John 6:5-14
  5. Jesus walking on water in John 6:16-24
  6. Healing the man blind from birth in John 9:1-7
  7. The raising of Lazarus in John 11:1-45.

Now, after the death of John the Baptist King Herod  on hearing about these so called miraculous wonders being performed by Jesus (he had never met him personally at this point Luke 23:8) appears to be frightened out of his skin. Why?

Well because the bible states this: 

12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
14 And king Herod heard of him [Jesus]; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus].
15 Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets.
16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.


So for anyone observant enough, they should be asking  what were the "mighty works" that John had performed for them to be now  "showing  forth themselves in Jesus"?
 We have had it confirmed by a regular contributor to DebateArt, The lawyer and the Pastor and Chaplin, reverend  Tradesecrete  #20   that :

There is no reason to assume that John ever performed any "miracles" mentioned at verse 13 above.  And I too admit  that I  neither  recall any miracles, or signs or wonders performed by John the Baptist. Indeed, we are told that  John was not even a messiah!




 I don't think there is any assumption necessary
I don't recall John in relation to any miracles. There was no reason for him to go about doing miracles.  John was not a messiah. Even though he was probably anointed as a priest. He was not the anointed. 
 


#2
fauxlaw
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@Stephen
It is true, as Tradesecret advised [apparently in another string, that John the Baptist performed no miracles [See John 11: 41], but producing signs was not the Baptist's calling. His calling was to announce the coming of the Messiah, and, in fact, flatly denied that was his title '...I am not the Christ" [John 1: 20] when others asked him. John recognized Jesus when he came to John at the Jordan River, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1: 29] So, the separate missions of the Baptist and the Christ are documented well enough.

As for Herod's fearful reaction, he acknowledges that he had the Baptist's head severed from the body, clearly ending his life. Thereupon witnessing [by, as yet, word from others] of the doings of Jesus, miracles  he apparently expected the Baptist might have been capable of performing, but no one else in his experience, Herod would plausibly assume the Baptist was risen from the dead. Let's recall that many assumed the Baptist was the Messiah [John 1: -- documents this rumor well enough]. Herod no doubt heard these whispers of John's potential powers, including, apparently, the ability to rise from the dead, and so is ascribing these miracles now performed by Jesus, whom Herod has never met, and does not yet acknowledge, as being performed by the risen John the Baptist.
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#3
Stephen
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@ fauxlaw,


Do not be so rude as to have me blocked but respond to my threads you coward.

 Get off my thread!!!!!
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#4
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Herod knew John better than he knew Jesus.

Herod liked to listen to John and  had many a conversation with him,  which the bible almost make it appear  they were friends.

In fact Herod had gone so far as to  protected John , from what or who we are never told ( it is just another one of those half stories)..

So I believe Herod to be in a much better position to tell us  of things John did and  was doing before his arrest and before he had ever heard of Jesus doing the same .



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#5
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So once more the scripture themselves throw up questions that the theist simply cannot answer.

Yet for Herod to state this he must have known that those "mighty works"  that the Christ was now performing were once  also being performed by John the Baptist.  So who was the real and accepted Christ before John lost his head?
#6
fauxlaw
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@Stephen
You call me rude. That's why you're blocked, my friend. Have a civil tongue. Your thread is in a free country on a free site. Have some respect; I'll unblock
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#7
Stephen
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Have some respect;
You don't deserve any. You are a coward and your actions are cowardly.  Shouting from the sidelines is cowardly, shouting while standing behind the crowd is cowardly. Antagonising  on the outside of the ropes instead of in the ring is cowardly.  

This is the second time I have asked you to leave my thread.

I have no interest I anything that you have to say while you have me on  that cowardly block.
#8
ethang5
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@Stephen
@fauxlaw
Stephen,

Your poor reading comprehension has mislead you again.

The bible does not say John performed miracles. Hero's was afraid because he thought Jesus was a resurrected John whom he had beheaded. He probably thought this "resurrected John" would be capable of miracles having been resurrected.

But you poor reading comprehension has tricked you once again into believing the passage, (or Herod) is saying that John performed miracles. That is only in your mind, not in the passage.

Trade secret and fauxlaw are correct.

#9
zedvictor4
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@ethang5
One person has an axe to grind and so interprets the bible one way, and another person has a different axe and so interprets it differently.

Same old.
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#10
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@ethang5
Your poor reading comprehension has mislead you again.

The bible does not say John performed miracles. 

Follow what I have said  and not what  you want  me  AND  Herod to have said. 

Herod had never met Jesus before  but he knew John very well.   The question is very easy and it have nothing to do with anyone's reading comprehension.

Go back and read the question AND ANSWER IT or simply leave the thread . 


#11
ethang5
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@Stephen
Your questions were...

[Herod] appears to be frightened out of his skin. Why?

I answered: Herod was afraid because he thought Jesus was a resurrected John whom he had beheaded. 

Your next question was: "So for anyone observant enough, they should be asking  what were the "mighty works" that John had performed for them to be now  "showing  forth themselves in Jesus"?"

My answer was, neither the text, or Herod said that John had performed "mighty works" that were now  "showing  forth themselves in Jesus". If that isn't in the text, where do you get it? It must be your poor reading comprehension.

We have had it confirmed by a regular contributor to DebateArt, The lawyer and the Pastor and Chaplin, reverend  Tradesecrete  #20   that :

There is no reason to assume that John ever performed any "miracles" mentioned at verse 13 above.  And I too admit  that I  neither  recall any miracles, or signs or wonders performed by John the Baptist. Indeed, we are told that  John was not even a messiah!
Then your suggestion that , "...observant people should be asking  what were the "mighty works" that John had performed" makes No's sense! Neither the bible or Herod says or imply John did any mighty works, Trade Secret confirms this, and you say you agree.

If this is so, why should "observant people be ask what were the "mighty works" that John performed?" What does "observant" mean to you?

....or simply leave the thread.
If board policy was you leave threads if you don't answer questions, you would not be a member here. None the less, I just posted your questions AND my answers.

I do not think thread makers have the authority to ask me to leave a thread. And I do not believe that posting to a thread a regular member has asked me to leave has any obligation for me. If that is board policy, I don't care to be here, but I'll wait till a mod expounds it to me.

In the main time, your reading comprehension is suspect.
#12
ethang5
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@zedvictor4
One person has an axe to grind and so interprets the bible one way, and another person has a different axe and so interprets it differently.

Same old.
I believe we can figure it out using objective logic, and I suspect that is what boards like this are designed for. If you find the topic old, you are free to ignore it.
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#13
Stephen
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@ethang5



My answer was, neither the text, or Herod said that John had performed "mighty works" that were now  "showing  forth themselves in Jesus".


 Then you simply cannot read or have missed what Herod has clearly implied.

And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him."Matthew 14:2
 
and he said to his attendants, "This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him."Matthew 14:2

Thank you for your pointless input.

Now you can go.



#14
ethang5
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@Stephen
And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist;...

The "this" Herod is referring to is Jesus, whom he only THINKS is John. Reading comprehension Stephen.

..he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him."Matthew 14:2
The "he" Herod refers to here is Jesus, whom he thinks is the risen John. Reading comprehension Stephen.

So we see that no reasonable person should be asking  what were the "mighty works" that John had performed for them to be now  "showing  forth themselves in Jesus". Herod felt that this Jesus, whom he thought was the risen John, was performing miracles because because he was resurrected. Nowhere does the text say or imply that John performed miracles. Reading comprehension Stephen.

Now you can go.
Are you sure? Because I'm taking the win with me.
#15
fauxlaw
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@Stephen
The KJV and the NIV are saying essentially the same thing: that Herod was afraid because, not knowing Jesus, and Herod did not know Jesus, and working entirely on hearsay about mighty miracles now being performed, that were not performed in kind while the Baptist was alive, Herod believed the miracles were being performed by the Baptist, now risen from the dead. And, with the Baptist being assumed to have been risen from the dead, Herod believed the Baptist was now endowed with these powers while incapable of them before the Baptist was beheaded, which Herod knew he, himself, ordered and had assurance it was done by delivery of the Baptist's head on a platter, and that is what caused Herod's fear. Herod feared these miraculous powers might be turned on him, for the word of these powers brought to Herod were of mightier works than Herod, himself, could perform, so he feared for his life, knowing he had wrongly executed the Baptist, who just might feel some revenge. Herod assumed, incorrectly, that the Baptist would visit such revenge on Herod, not understanding that resurrected beings, of whom, by the ancient scriptures he had in his possession, spoke of the power of resurrection, which miracle in and of itself, had never had a historic example, so, what would Herod believe? That the Baptist, wrongly executed, would visit kindness on Herod's evil? But Herod was wrong in his entire assumption. That's what assumptions do: they make an ass of the believers of assumptions.
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@Stephen
You think that Herod was not aware of the OT prophesies of the coming of the Lord, and his resulting sacrifice, death, and glorious resurrection, and the power it will grant unto him, and all who believe in him? I have read the entire Bible in four languages, including those multiple OT prophesies to which Herod had access. Herod was aware of them, and they begin in Genesis 3, so, the resurrection is a concept theJews were well aware would ultimately come. Genesis, Isaiah, Psalms, Job, Hosea, Zechariah, etc, all testify of the power endowed by resurrection, but, if you do not read - all of it - in context, you're likely ignorant of the passages. So be it. None so blind as those who will not see. Have to read to see, you know. Stop assuming and read. The whole bloody thing, not a verse here and there. Context, my friend. Content, content, content. All of it. 
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#17
Stephen
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I have asked you to stay off my thread and given perfectly good reasons for you to do so. I am not interested in the slightest in what you have to say.

I am asking you again for the third time. 

Please stay off my thread for the reasons I have given above
#18
ethang5
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@Stephen
Why are you afraid of me being on your threads?

You, an atheist, will come to a religion board and ask a theist to leave? Does that make sense to you?

I do not have to leave, your asking does not obligate me. I will post where I want and when I want. You are free to block me or ignore my posts. But you will not control me.

Why are liberals always trying to control others?
#19
fauxlaw
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@Stephen
Free country, bud. Don't care however you ask. You own the beginning of the thread. After that, it's open season. And you seem to be able to communicate anyway, so, what's your beef?
#20
fauxlaw
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@ethang5
I think Stephen is talking to me. Maybe you too. Whatever, thin-skin, eh?
#21
Utanity
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@ethang5
Your wrong because Jesus did miracels in John and then they came out of him. Jesus made the wine then he gave it to John and John did the miracle so that means your wrong.
#22
Tradesecret
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@Utanity
Your wrong because Jesus did miracels in John and then they came out of him. Jesus made the wine then he gave it to John and John did the miracle so that means your wrong.
John did not perform any miracles.  Duh!
#23
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@Stephen
im not quite sure the problem here? where does it say John performs the miracles?
#24
Utanity
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@Tradesecret
John did perform miracle because it says so in the bible and you are wrong again because I said it the first time then you just said so without giving any evidence. 
#25
ethang5
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@fauxlaw
Oh sorry. He's wailed for me to leave "his" thread too.

Lol. If this keeps up, the only person allowed to post will be Stephen himself. What a religion board that would be! Only one person able to post, and he's an atheist!
#26
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@Dr.Franklin
im not quite sure the problem here? where does it say John performs the miracles?
So far, only in Stephen's brilliant post.
#27
Utanity
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@ethang5
I said so in my post that John does the miracle. Which is right because it was Jesus who made the wine but John is the one who does the miracle.
#28
Tradesecret
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@Utanity
John did perform miracle because it says so in the bible and you are wrong again because I said it the first time then you just said so without giving any evidence. 
Give an example of verse of a miracle John did. 
#29
Tradesecret
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@Utanity
Whatever are you talking about? Jesus is the one to whom the miracle is accredited. John was not even at the Wedding. 
#30
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@Utanity
Jesus never gave wine to John the Baptist.   If you disagree with me - show me the passage where you claim it happened.