God is not supernatural

Author: Tradesecret

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@Mopac
That is my point. So you would then see our marriages as illegitimate and that we live in sin. 
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@Tradesecret
According to your faulty reasoning, but not reality.

We wouldn't say that 2 Muslims were not married. They are not married in the church. It wouldn't be a sacramental marriage. They still have some type of marriage.

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@Mopac
And for the record, we consider your church heretical. Yet this would not invalidate it in terms of its authority. 

And just so you don't think I am somehow suggesting your church is better than others, I would put the Baptists and the Lutherans, and The catholics into this situation as well. 

All of these churches are heretical in the sense of not perfectly in accord with the truth, yet, each teach the common tenants of the Gospel as understood in the bible from the early church on - and in respect of the the important creeds from the legitimate ecumenical councils. 

By the way - this is not claiming that my church is perfect - it has many flaws - some which probably are heretical.  Yet, it has a valid authority from God. Covenantal - with two or three witnesses.  

I would accept your church's legitimacy in respect of its authority over its congregation.  I would do the same for the Baptist and for the Catholic. Each of these however - like yours fails to appreciate the unity in Christ that all true believers have. 

This is to your detriment.  But nevertheless, God is bigger than all of us and he will do as he pleases.   SO please have a good Christmas - praising God in the Lord Jesus Christ.
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@Tradesecret
If you want unity, become orthodox. Otherwise, there is no unity between us, your church is under anathema.

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We certainly do not share the same faith. Calvinist teachings are perverted from orthodoxy. 
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@Mopac
My reasoning is not faulty.  I am simply following the reasoning of your church and the catholic church and indeed the Baptist  church.  

Why is it - you think that the catholic church annuls marriages. IT does not believe in divorce so - it conveniently finds a loophole - in its understanding of legitimacy of authority. It would consider that you, if you were married in the Orthodox Church, to be living in a de facto relationship. Living in sin. It certainly holds this view to all protestants. And it would also hold this view towards Muslims.  

I take the view that this is because they - like you - and the Baptist church have a faulty view of authority. And of legitimacy.  You misunderstand the gospels and the Word of God and you are all too arrogant to consider that real power comes in humility, like the Lord Jesus Christ when he left his throne in heaven to become a man.  

We are not to lord it over others.  That is the way of the Catholic church and the way of the Baptists - and from what I read of your church, it is the same with your lot. You have forsaken humility in favor of authority in a top down system. 

Jesus led as a servant. That is his system of leadership.  Not arrogance. Not isolating people. Not telling others that they are not legitimate followers. He - simply said - "follow me".  And so far as his people follow him, they will be on a much safer path of assurance than all the trappings of tradition and religion that many churches around the world want to put onto them.  


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each teach the common tenants of the Gospel as understood in the bible from the early church on - and in respect of the the important creeds from the legitimate ecumenical councils. 
Certainly not the case. The church itself is an object of faith.

That is why in the creed we profess "One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church"

The church fathrrs did not understand this as your church falsely re-interprets.
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@Tradesecret
You don't know how we understand or believe things because you are leaning on your own understanding. Your reasoning is not the church's reasoning. Nor is your reasoning what the church teaches.

You certainly don't understand how authority in our church works. 


My submission to the church is certainly less vain glorious than starting my own church.
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@Mopac

Peter repented.
My point is that it wasn't unassisted.

Luke 22:31-62

English Standard Version

Jesus Foretells Peter's Denial
31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you,[
a] that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” 33 Peter[b] said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus[c] said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me.”

It seems apparent that had Jesus not prayed for Peter, the outcome may have been quite different. Wouldn't you agree?


The problem with eternal security is that it leads people to arrogantly boast of their own salvation, which they themselves don't truly know they have. It also very easily leads to a dead faith without works(no faith) and even a dead conscience that feels no conviction from sin.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that there are some Christians who don't know if they have salvation? Or, no one  (including yourself) really knows if they have salvation?



Walking with God necessitates a life of repentence. Which means to confess when you sin, and turn away from evil.
This doesn't address eternal security though. This is what believers are commanded to do, yes.
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@RoderickSpode
When I read the writings and lives of the saints, I find many examples of those  who even up until their last breathe found themselves unworthy of being saved. Rather, what I find is that they put their trust in God's love to forgive them, even considering it the righteous judgement of God to send them to perdition.

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@RoderickSpode
Feeling secure in one's own salvation is a sign of prelest. It is also not the proper attitude to have toward God, for the sinner who said "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner" was said by Christ to be justified, while the pharisee who accounted himself as righteous was not. For "every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
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@RoderickSpode
Before Saint Porphyrios reposed, he wrote this letter, which demonstrates the humility of a saintly man.

"My dear spiritual Children,

Now that I am still in charge of my faculties, I want to give you some advice.

Ever since I was a child, I was always in sin. When my mother sent me to watch the animals on the mountain, (my father had gone to America to work on the Panama Canal for us his children, because we were poor), there, where I shepherded the animals, I slowly read, word by word, the life of St. John the Hut-dweller and I loved St. John very much.

I said a lot of prayers, like the young child that I was, twelve or fifteen years old, I don't remember too well. I wanted to follow his example. So, with a lot of difficulty, I secretly left my parents and came to Kavsokalyvia on the Holy Mountain. I became obedient to two elders, the true brothers, Panteleimon and loannikios. They happened to be very devout and full of virtue, I loved them very much and because of that, with their blessing, I gave them absolute obedience. That helped me a lot. I also felt great love for God and got along very well.

However, because of my sins, God allowed me to become ill, and my elders told me to go to my parents in my village of St. John, Evia. Although I had sinned a lot from when I was a small child, when I returned to the world I continued to commit sins which, today are very many. The world, however, thought highly of me, and everyone shouts that I'm a saint.

I however, feel that I am the most sinful person in the world. Of course, whatever I remembered I confessed, and I know God has forgiven me.

But now I have the feeling that my spiritual sins are very many and I ask all those who have known me to pray for me, because, for as long as I lived, I humbly prayed for you, too. Now that I'm leaving for heaven, I have the feeling that God will say to me, "What are you doing here?" I have only one thing to say to him, "I am not worthy of here, Lord, but whatever your love wills, it'll do for me." From then on, I don't know what will happen. I however, wish for God's love to act.


I always pray that my spiritual children will love God, Who is everything, so that He will make us worthy to enter His earthly uncreated Church. We must begin from here. I always made the effort to pray, to read the hymns of the Church, the Holy Scriptures and the Lives of the Saints. May you do the same. I tried, by the grace of God, to approach God and may you also do the same.

I beg all of you to forgive me for whatever I did to upset you."




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@Mopac
I am not confident that you know what our church teaches.  You certainly do not demonstrate that you do - in your responses. 

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@Mopac
You don't know how we understand or believe things because you are leaning on your own understanding. Your reasoning is not the church's reasoning. Nor is your reasoning what the church teaches.

You certainly don't understand how authority in our church works. 


My submission to the church is certainly less vain glorious than starting my own church.
My reasoning is that of the church through the years.  I probably don't know how authority in your church works. Yet it seems from the way you present things  - it is top down - obey me or else you are considered a heretic.  Certainly you come across as someone who is unable to demonstrate grace - which is the fundamental tenant of the Christianity.  

I did not start a new church.  Yet, submission to the church by the OC was certainly lacking when it came to the Split. Your church refused to submit and as such was excommunicated.  It was so lacking in submission that it then decided to excommunicate the pope.  So sad - that this is the legacy of the OC.  to be unable to submit and also to make itself out to be God.  The arrogance is breathtaking.  

Of course - if the OC understood covenant - then it might actually understand how its stance is legitimate but it refuses to acknowledge covenant - and the process of how a church is able to be both submissive and appeal to a higher authority at the same time.  Therefore - it remains divisive - and proud.  This is one reason the OC is failing as denomination.   And will continue to do so. 
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@Tradesecret
There was a time when Arianism dominated the world. There was a time when the Nestorian church was the largest. The Roman Catholic Church is the largest today.

What matters is orthodoxy. Apostolic succession has always been one of the identifiers of the church. One of several. You confess denominationalism, but the church is Catholic, which means the church is complete and whole. Is Christ's body divided? Denominationalism is not orthodox. The church is one, not many. It is holy. It is holy because it is the incarnate Christ. If you do not eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ, you aren't in the church.

Certainly God's uncreated energies extend beyond the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit is everywhere present, and fills all things. While the grace of God even at times acts on those outside the church, the Church itself is the fountainhead of that grace. The Most Perfect Icon of God is The Church, which is Christ incarnate. 

If you are not in communion with the church, you are not in it.




Castin
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@Tradesecret
I take the view that this is because they - like you - and the Baptist church have a faulty view of authority. And of legitimacy.  You misunderstand the gospels and the Word of God and you are all too arrogant to consider that real power comes in humility, like the Lord Jesus Christ when he left his throne in heaven to become a man.  

We are not to lord it over others.  That is the way of the Catholic church and the way of the Baptists - and from what I read of your church, it is the same with your lot. You have forsaken humility in favor of authority in a top down system. 

Jesus led as a servant. That is his system of leadership.  Not arrogance. Not isolating people. Not telling others that they are not legitimate followers. He - simply said - "follow me".  And so far as his people follow him, they will be on a much safer path of assurance than all the trappings of tradition and religion that many churches around the world want to put onto them.  
Aaaaaand Tradesecret wins the interdenominational debate.
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@Tradesecret
The point is, you may think you were baptised, and you may think you received The Holy Spirit, but the church has taught since the beginning that these things are not done independently of the church. The fathers of the church did not have the same understanding of ecclessiology that you do.
This the exact same sentiment of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and Catholics, just change "the church" to mean "their church".

The focus of the true church was, is, and always will be, His Glorious Majesty, King Jesus Christ. Everything else, and I do mean everything else, is subservient and inferior to Him, be they traditions, doctrines, or denominations.

And no man who places his faith in Jesus Christ can possibly be wrong.
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@Mopac
When I read the writings and lives of the saints, I find many examples of those  who even up until their last breathe found themselves unworthy of being saved. Rather, what I find is that they put their trust in God's love to forgive them, even considering it the righteous judgement of God to send them to perdition.

This is common amongst believers from all denominations, walks of life, etc.

Was this meant to address my question about Peter's support from Christ's intercession?


Feeling secure in one's own salvation is a sign of prelest. It is also not the proper attitude to have toward God, for the sinner who said "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner" was said by Christ to be justified, while the pharisee who accounted himself as righteous was not. For "every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

I think you're mixing up feeling secure about salvation with feeling secure with sinning as a believer.

1 John 5:13

New International Version

Concluding Affirmations
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

It can be a waste of time applying rules about attitude, and suggestions of arrogance when it's not our call. If someone is going to be allowed into heaven, it really doesn't matter how humble they appeared to us.





RoderickSpode
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@Mopac
Before Saint Porphyrios reposed, he wrote this letter, which demonstrates the humility of a saintly man.

"My dear spiritual Children,

Now that I am still in charge of my faculties, I want to give you some advice.

Ever since I was a child, I was always in sin. When my mother sent me to watch the animals on the mountain, (my father had gone to America to work on the Panama Canal for us his children, because we were poor), there, where I shepherded the animals, I slowly read, word by word, the life of St. John the Hut-dweller and I loved St. John very much.

I said a lot of prayers, like the young child that I was, twelve or fifteen years old, I don't remember too well. I wanted to follow his example. So, with a lot of difficulty, I secretly left my parents and came to Kavsokalyvia on the Holy Mountain. I became obedient to two elders, the true brothers, Panteleimon and loannikios. They happened to be very devout and full of virtue, I loved them very much and because of that, with their blessing, I gave them absolute obedience. That helped me a lot. I also felt great love for God and got along very well.

However, because of my sins, God allowed me to become ill, and my elders told me to go to my parents in my village of St. John, Evia. Although I had sinned a lot from when I was a small child, when I returned to the world I continued to commit sins which, today are very many. The world, however, thought highly of me, and everyone shouts that I'm a saint.

I however, feel that I am the most sinful person in the world. Of course, whatever I remembered I confessed, and I know God has forgiven me.

But now I have the feeling that my spiritual sins are very many and I ask all those who have known me to pray for me, because, for as long as I lived, I humbly prayed for you, too. Now that I'm leaving for heaven, I have the feeling that God will say to me, "What are you doing here?" I have only one thing to say to him, "I am not worthy of here, Lord, but whatever your love wills, it'll do for me." From then on, I don't know what will happen. I however, wish for God's love to act.


I always pray that my spiritual children will love God, Who is everything, so that He will make us worthy to enter His earthly uncreated Church. We must begin from here. I always made the effort to pray, to read the hymns of the Church, the Holy Scriptures and the Lives of the Saints. May you do the same. I tried, by the grace of God, to approach God and may you also do the same.

I beg all of you to forgive me for whatever I did to upset you."

He gave a good reason for a believer to walk in fear and trembling.

Obviously there's a balance here. One extreme is having no concern about living a sinful lifestyle, and the other is not even being sure if one is saved. The idea that we can't know isn't even scriptural.

If one is walking on the path they are being lead in (walking in the light), they don't have to feel the dread a sinner feels.

Hebrews 4:16

New King James Version

16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 Do you see the paradox here? Being instructed to come boldly before any throne is normally relegated to a select few.






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@RoderickSpode
One thing that can be certain of is the resurrection. 

All are saved from death. No one is exempt from the judgement.




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@ethang5
What about everyone else,  who hasn't been or ever was or ever will be, conditioned to accept your version of the Jesus GOD principle.

Perhaps we are all saved by our own particular version of things.
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@zedvictor4
My personal view is that many more people will enter Heaven than most atheists think.

Judgement is not my job. I don't know how God will judge individuals, but I do know the greatest chance anyone has of being saved is to be judged by God. Not only does He love them the most, but knows every mitigating factor, and wants them saved more than anyone else.

What about everyone else,  who hasn't been or ever was or ever will be, conditioned to accept your version of the Jesus GOD principle.
God doesn't judge us based on our "conditioning". That is just your delusion toying with your mind. But here is what God says about your question in His letter to us...

Rom 1:18 - The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

Rom 1:19 - since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Rom 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Rom 1:21 - For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 1:22 - Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

Perhaps we are all saved by our own particular version of things.
Nothing about our "version" saves us.

Act 4:12 - Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Salvation is by Jesus Christ, and Him alone.

Tit 3:3 - At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

Tit 3:4 - But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,

Tit 3:5 - he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Tit 3:6 - whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior

God is the final and supreme judge. It doesn't matter what you think of His rules or His judgement. Your "version" makes no difference. No one has any excuse.

The time to do something about the law is NOW, not when you find yourself in court.