There is a learning experience even in an unjust and completely corrupt scenario.

Author: RationalMadman

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@BearMan
I know what he is saying, thank you for clarifying it. The guy who banned me said he's glad I was banned.

Now, why was I banned?

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Your silence speaks for itself.
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Now that it has become clear that Ragnar relies solely on witty rhetoric and avoidance of literal laid out point-by-point decimation of the reasons I was banned, I can happily leave the site permanently until the community either grows sick of the corruption and overthrows these crooks in charge or I enjoy a life free of this utter bullcrap.

I just wanted to show the level of ignorance and 'hehe I can link the thread where I dodged you and people ganged up on you and the guy I said you harassed asked to not ban you and I went ooopsie'.
I'm done here, I did what I had to in order to totally and utterly expose the cowardice and corruption of the chief and deputy mod. It's up to you DART to realise the problem and irrefutable injustice of my ban or not. Either way, I'm happy with this. 


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@RationalMadman
Your silence speaks for itself.
You waited seven minutes after challenging people to speak before writing this comment.
What is it he said that was true and significant?
He pointed out that it was silly to ask him to stay out of this thread and then accuse him of being scared for staying out of the thread. He also linked to a thread in which he defended the decision of the moderation team. I think it's clear at this point that the mods have already said all they're going to say on this subject.

To be clear, I have nothing against you. Although I've followed this bit of drama, I haven't looked into it deeply. Why? Simply because I know the moderators are human. I know they will make mistakes. They are going to make decisions that I disagree with. In your case, there are arguments to be made on both sides. Reasonable people can look at these things and disagree without having to be malicious or deceitful. You're free to disagree with their decisions, but it won't do you or anyone else a lick of good to throw around accusations of malice. Once again, I have absolutely nothing against you.
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@RationalMadman
P = paragraph from this thread's original post...


P1: I was quite literally banned over pure lies
The user RationalMadman was proven to make posts which were clearly targeted harassment, some of these he even apologized for. If "pure lies" these posts would not exist.


P3: 90% of the evidence they hint at or try to drag me through the mud with when called out on proof was prior to this Tabula Rasa
Patently untrue. As exemplified by 4 out of 5 links from the original draft, being for very recent offenses. The remaining 1 was showing how far back the history of unhealthy fixations on people goes. Claiming 90%, when evidence points to a 20% which did not even cause the ban even while being a worthy mention for context, is quite the distortion. Also since there's evidence of misdeeds, how was it all "pure lies"?


P6: I did not ever do 'targetted harassment' ... There are three examples given and the most severe one that remotely was something I should regret and do
The examples are not all inclusive, and with https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4593-static-live-mafia-on-fridays?page=1&post_number=2 targetted harassment is proven to have occured and commited by the user of the account RationalMadman. From the CoC: "Creating threads to call-out specific users qualifies as targeted harassment, as does obsessive attempts to derail unrelated topics with impertinent grudges." That thread of course got much worse than the single post outlined, but being #2 in the thread, is very indicative of the problem.


P7: doesn't feel harassed by me
I've seen this line of reasoning a few times for various crimes... Harassment is defined by the actions, not just if it's successful in causing harm.
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I think it's clear at this point that the mods have already said all they're going to say on this subject.
I guess I have to retract this statement already.
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@Barney
I've seen this line of reasoning a few times for various crimes... Harassment is defined by the actions, not just if it's successful in causing harm.
This is where I think discretion might be useful, tbh. If a person is handling themselves well enough I think in certain situations it's best to just let it defuse on it's own. The blocking feature seems pretty useful for that. I fundamentally think the blocking aspect is silly for a debate site, but since it's here, might as well make use of it. If a person is feeling harassed you can just direct them to the blocking feature instead of having to worry about which appropriate action to take with someone. Makes your job easier.
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@Lunatic
 If a person is handling themselves well enough I think in certain situations it's best to just let it defuse on it's own.
Most of the time that works. Sadly, sometimes people are not handling themselves well enough without intervention. Even then, usually a very minor intervention curbs the troublesome behavior.


If a person is feeling harassed you can just direct them to the blocking feature
Especially when combined with a request to cease and desist, if everyone abided by such common courtesy, we might not need moderators. Sadly that doesn't always work. Some users outright respond to such with increased efforts directed to the person whom clearly expressed disinterest in continued contact. Hence why there even needs to be a rule in the CoC, when basic human decency should be enough.
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Harassment is defined by the actions, not just if it's successful in causing harm.
This is a core and deeply disturbing disagreement between us on the matter. Now that you have said this, I understand a lot more about not just you but why you can't begin to grasp why I didn't deserve my ban or why you were wrong on every count.

Harassment is entirely defined by how harassed the victims feel. It is actually worse when it's done in a way that's hard to report or frame as a crime based on the actions being so subtle and non-severe in appearance that the harasser gets away with it again and again. 

I did not harass anyone on this website, especially not in a repeated manner of any kind. You told me to back off from people when? Whenever you did, I did. I am an upstanding, brilliant example of how to use this website and that is why I am quitting it until a leader who more coherently and morally applies rules is in place. I just have a debate to finish.
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@Barney
 If a person is handling themselves well enough I think in certain situations it's best to just let it defuse on it's own.
Most of the time that works. Sadly, sometimes people are not handling themselves well enough without intervention. Even then, usually a very minor intervention curbs the troublesome behavior.

You mean in the case where one party reports the other? What about the case where no reports are made? 

If a person is feeling harassed you can just direct them to the blocking feature
Especially when combined with a request to cease and desist, if everyone abided by such common courtesy, we might not need moderators. Sadly that doesn't always work. Some users outright respond to such with increased efforts directed to the person whom clearly expressed disinterest in continued contact. Hence why there even needs to be a rule in the CoC, when basic human decency should be enough.
The person can, ya know, continue to not respond to the other party lol.
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@RM

Why not just let go of your previous experiences and do everything moral from here on?
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@Intelligence_06
Because what's slipping the mind of you and every other sheep upvoting Ragnar's trash posts is that I was good, I obeyed every rule and they invented wrongdoing to justify a ban.
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@RationalMadman
Harassment is entirely defined by how harassed the victims feel. 
No, it's not. As stated in the Code of Conduct: "In most cases, a “reasonable person” standard will be utilized." Applying this, someone may feel victimized by another user not liking Naruto enough; but due to the reasonable person standard, no matter how badly hurt someone feels from that disparity in pop culture appreciation, it does not transform into a CoC violation.

This shouldn't need to be explained to you, given the countless times you requested moderation intervention on behalf of other members via filing reports for tiny or outright imagined things.

While victim response can mitigate damage, severe enough or frequent enough bad behaviors do not suddenly become appropriate or even close to acceptable. To use an extreme example, when someone makes up stories about another committing embezzlement, just because the victim does not testify, doesn't absolve the harasser of the intentionally harmful actions.


I obeyed every rule and they invented wrongdoing to justify a ban.
You have refused to address how the "invented" evidence was "pure lies," such as authoring this post: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4593-static-live-mafia-on-fridays?page=1&post_number=2
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@Lunatic
 If a person is handling themselves well enough I think in certain situations it's best to just let it defuse on it's own.
Most of the time that works. Sadly, sometimes people are not handling themselves well enough without intervention. Even then, usually a very minor intervention curbs the troublesome behavior.
You mean in the case where one party reports the other? What about the case where no reports are made? 
In cases without any reports filed, we are very unlikely to see it. Of course as seen with callout threads, if I happen to spot one, I'm not going to wait for someone else to file a report.


If a person is feeling harassed you can just direct them to the blocking feature
Especially when combined with a request to cease and desist, if everyone abided by such common courtesy, we might not need moderators. Sadly that doesn't always work. Some users outright respond to such with increased efforts directed to the person whom clearly expressed disinterest in continued contact. Hence why there even needs to be a rule in the CoC, when basic human decency should be enough.
The person can, ya know, continue to not respond to the other party lol.
That does not always work to dissuade the obsessed. You might request someone leave you alone and block them; only for them to start callout threads against you, follow you into any thread you participate to dredge up their off topic grudge, and of course spam in any thread you start to ensure you get many notifications about them. Moderation intervention can allow a harrassed user to resume peaceful enjoyment of the site.
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@Barney
What I did to seldiora isn't even remotely harassment, I was swearing at the vote being allowed not even at anyone lmfao. One incident? That is targeted harassment?

What about getting others to do so at my behest? When did I do that?

What happened to the multi accounting or doxxing? Dropped them? Realised he gave amnesty on top of them being lies? Thought so.

You have a series of false accusations that you're trying and failing to paint a brush over with rhetoric. The people liking your posts are not agreeing with you, they're just not thinking about it.
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@SirAnonymous
How does it help to not accuse malice where there is malice? Should I assume them to be incompetent and stupid instead of malicious?
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@Barney
I recommend not trying anymore. Give up and get the guy who actually engineered this ban and who is ranked above you to actually say a single word rather than hide behind you for blamelessness.
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@RationalMadman
How does it help to not accuse malice where there is malice? Should I assume them to be incompetent and stupid instead of malicious?
This is a false dichotomy. Even competent, reasonable people are quite capable of making mistakes without being malicious, incompetent, or stupid. To err is human.
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@SirAnonymous
We define competence and the severity of my received false allegations and punishment very differently. Competence is impossible to coincide with what's happened here.
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@Barney
In cases without any reports filed, we are very unlikely to see it. Of course as seen with callout threads, if I happen to spot one, I'm not going to wait for someone else to file a report.
Unlikely to see it or not, why intervene at all if both users are handling themselves just fine?

That does not always work to dissuade the obsessed.

So? The "victim" or  the person blocking doesn't have to read or care about anything the other person says.


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@Lunatic
To add onto your points and relate it to my specific case, they never gave me a warning.

They never said "stay away from DuhHamburgler and Lunatic" for me to then disobey.

The same goes for Seldiora (and both of you oppose my ban and the accusation of me harassing you).

It is intriguing what they are suggesting I even did here, that is a mystery that will remain forevermore.
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@RationalMadman
If two people are arguing between themselves I see no reason for mod intervention. Drama is looked at as inherently bad here, and I don't think it is. 
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@DebateArt.com
@David
@Barney
@Vader
@MisterChris
Why bother writing you raps or messages, some rappers perfectly produced tracks and spat lyrics to represent my feelings towards you and about my situation.

David/Virtuoso

Ragnar

DebateArt.Com
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@RationalMadman
You have a series of false accusations
You are accused of writing various posts authored by RationalMadman. You have repeatedly promised to prove that such was "pure lies," but continuously evade the question only to repeat your baseless assertion that someone other than you "invented" those posts to frame you of writing things you would never write. So step up to to the plate, if you are not the RationalMadman who authored those posts, who was?
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@Barney
So step up to to the plate, if you are not the RationalMadman who authored those posts, who was?
The same motherfucker telling you I didn't harass a single member in a targeted manner. Anyone who was targeted on this site saw me be their shield long before any rules were truly enforced.

Let me make this crystal clear for you and anyone stepping into this scene thinking they know a damn thing about me:

  1. I am the one who made Bsh1 realise he had to stop being so laissez-faire in a hypocritical manner where he would enforce hard on some and not on others.
  2. I am the one who encouraged Bsh1 to step down to Virtuoso and planted the seed in his brain and the community's mind that ensured Virtuoso' uprisal back when everyone was 'all or nothing' with the duo.
  3. I am the one who, before when things were chaos, stood up to the bullies along with ethang5. 
  4. I am the one you owe for the serenity of generally fair rule enforcement, having been heavily involved in many decisions by Bsh1 and Virtuoso behind the scenes you don't even know about.
Fuck all you newcomers thinking you know shit, upvoting someone (Ragnar) who bullied me before becoming mod in a really sadistic and immature manner which he wouldn't want me to bring up him being the 'author of'. You don't know me or my story but what I know is this; I never went after anyone in a targeted harassment manner. Those I called out to play were those who could take it and this is proven at the fact that the very people you spearheaded the case against me with not only were shocked you even suggested I harassed them but loathed the ban.

I am someone who Seldiora likes more than Ragnar and Virtuoso a million times over. Seldiora doesn't even understand what's going on. You don't know shit, he respects me because I am a true OG who was friendly to him before this site even existed.

You don't know the story, you don't know my life or my character. What you know is a ridiculous pseudo-depiction of a storyline Ragnar and Virtuoso/David literally fictitiously made up and wrote which includes flat out lies about stuff I never did like multi-accounting here. How about you mods tell them I just 2-3 days ago noticed and told Type1 to out himself to you? I spotted him and told him to do that and worked with him to get free wins? Delusional. 

I am what I am, for those who want a true depiction hit me up and actually get to know me. It won't be easy but those worthy will have a highly intelligent and loyal friend for life, which I have been for some on this site who themselves chose to break ways with me for whatever reason.

When people picked on and harassed Virtuoso, I defended him even after he was part of the decisions Bsh1 made to ban me temporarily before. I did the same for Castin and quite a few other in the Religions forum. One guy who liked me a lot for how I tried to get justice for him against MAR while Bsh1 was in charge was a user called Raltar.

You can sit there fucking pretending I am some bully-ass villain. I am familiar with your narrative. I lost whatever respect I had for you now, Ragnar. I'm sad that you have lost your integrity and hope you find it again some day.
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@Lunatic
In cases without any reports filed, we are very unlikely to see it. Of course as seen with callout threads, if I happen to spot one, I'm not going to wait for someone else to file a report.
Unlikely to see it or not, why intervene at all if both users are handling themselves just fine?
Specifically in the case of callout threads, to try to prevent the forums turning into a toxic cesspit. Granted, I can outright admit not all callout threads are equally bad. Similarly, just because two members are not getting along, even if reports are filed, does not guarantee moderation intervention (the vast majority of "reports have been handled" on posts, did not yield even a PM to anyone).


That does not always work to dissuade the obsessed.
So? The "victim" or  the person blocking doesn't have to read or care about anything the other person says.
I don't know if you've ever had a stalker before, but just ignoring someone being deranged toward you, spreading rumors of you commiting crimes, etc., is in some cases a very sub-optimum solution. While perhaps not rewarding the abuser, it does very little to dissuade them from continuing toward you and/or seeking more victims.

To use another thing moderation steps in against: We ban spambots and delete their posts. While user could likewise just ignore the spam, the occasional clicks generated by their links could encourage the spammers to up their efforts here, and flood us... I suspect people come here because there is moderation intervention when necessary.

I've done a lot to loosen the rules. You can joke, you can be impolite. However, there are still lines that that can be crossed.
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@RationalMadman
I don't think there's anyone here who would deny that you've done a lot of good for this site and that you've been one of its most important members.
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@Barney
Specifically in the case of callout threads, to try to prevent the forums turning into a toxic cesspit. Granted, I can outright admit not all callout threads are equally bad. Similarly, just because two members are not getting along, even if reports are filed, does not guarantee moderation intervention (the vast majority of "reports have been handled" on posts, did not yield even a PM to anyone).
But in the case of that live mafia thread? We had that one handled lol

I don't know if you've ever had a stalker before, but just ignoring someone being deranged toward you, spreading rumors of you commiting crimes, etc., is in some cases a very sub-optimum solution. While perhaps not rewarding the abuser, it does very little to dissuade them from continuing toward you and/or seeking more victims.

To use another thing moderation steps in against: We ban spambots and delete their posts. While user could likewise just ignore the spam, the occasional clicks generated by their links could encourage the spammers to up their efforts here, and flood us... I suspect people come here because there is moderation intervention when necessary.

I've done a lot to loosen the rules. You can joke, you can be impolite. However, there are still lines that that can be crossed.
Stalking? Stalking on a website seems interesting. I mean if the person is doxing and using personal information that's one thing, but if they are just participating in the same threads and you don't like that, you can say it's stalking. If someone is spamming that's one thing, and doxing another thing. I am just suggesting taking a lighter perception of moderation on certain issues.
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@Lunatic
Specifically in the case of callout threads, to try to prevent the forums turning into a toxic cesspit. Granted, I can outright admit not all callout threads are equally bad. Similarly, just because two members are not getting along, even if reports are filed, does not guarantee moderation intervention (the vast majority of "reports have been handled" on posts, did not yield even a PM to anyone).
But in the case of that live mafia thread? We had that one handled lol
That thread was not a case of some minor blow-up shortly followed by people self-correcting. Moderation was requested multiple times by multiple people. Heck, the worst of it outright had to be deleted. Honestly, the whole thing would have been deleted, if not for RM's repeated denials of having posted anything in there (it's apparently "invented" "pure lies" designed to slander him... which you implying his presence there with such word choice as "we," means you're part of said conspiracy).


I don't know if you've ever had a stalker before, but just ignoring someone being deranged toward you, spreading rumors of you commiting crimes, etc., is in some cases a very sub-optimum solution. While perhaps not rewarding the abuser, it does very little to dissuade them from continuing toward you and/or seeking more victims.

To use another thing moderation steps in against: We ban spambots and delete their posts. While user could likewise just ignore the spam, the occasional clicks generated by their links could encourage the spammers to up their efforts here, and flood us... I suspect people come here because there is moderation intervention when necessary.

I've done a lot to loosen the rules. You can joke, you can be impolite. However, there are still lines that that can be crossed.
Stalking? Stalking on a website seems interesting. I mean if the person is doxing and using personal information that's one thing, but if they are just participating in the same threads and you don't like that, you can say it's stalking. If someone is spamming that's one thing, and doxing another thing.
Stalking from Merriam-Webster "broadly a crime of engaging in a course of conduct directed at a person that serves no legitimate purpose and seriously alarms, annoys, or intimidates that person"

While online differs a little, I believe the word still fairly applies. A user should be able to start a thread on Topic C, without some obsessed [pick your stalker synonym] barging in to harass them about in Topic A weeks or months ago, they were impolite to the [pick your stalker synonym], and in short order begin accusing them of stealing money.


I am just suggesting taking a lighter perception of moderation on certain issues.
If 42 days was too long for what RM did is a fair criticism.
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@Barney
I must have deleted the notification for this when I got responses in mafia games, I didn't realize you had responded.

That thread was not a case of some minor blow-up shortly followed by people self-correcting. Moderation was requested multiple times by multiple people. Heck, the worst of it outright had to be deleted. Honestly, the whole thing would have been deleted, if not for RM's repeated denials of having posted anything in there (it's apparently "invented" "pure lies" designed to slander him... which you implying his presence there with such word choice as "we," means you're part of said conspiracy).
People reporting a thread when they weren't even there, doesn't encourage discussion. It's tattle-telling to the 4th degree lol. When stuff like this happened on DDO, there were multiple people engaging in a dialogue, it wasn't just dismissed and reported as drama lol. Btw this brings up another issue, the "public shaming" of responding to every report. Responding to a report should be done in a private message with the reporter I think. For example, even though you were technically saying what I said in that mafia game wasn't bannable, the publicity of the whole thing just drew more attention to the post when I assumed it was for the most part forgotten about. I see that you've deleted it, but I know this seems to be your policy in general. Why not just PM the reporter about your decision?

Stalking from Merriam-Webster "broadly a crime of engaging in a course of conduct directed at a person that serves no legitimate purpose and seriously alarms, annoys, or intimidates that person"

While online differs a little, I believe the word still fairly applies. A user should be able to start a thread on Topic C, without some obsessed [pick your stalker synonym] barging in to harass them about in Topic A weeks or months ago, they were impolite to the [pick your stalker synonym], and in short order begin accusing them of stealing money.
Stalking mostly has real word application in context to that definition. The stakes aren't as high on a debate website, with two people sitting at a computer desk miles away from each other. I feel like they should be able to "suck up" a bit of stalking. You could term RM's behavior in this whole thread as stalking, for example by that definition. Or the party can choose do to what Dave has done, and just ignore the whole thread.