Themeless Mafia 1 - Day Phase 2

Author: Lucky

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#121
Danielle
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@coal
you are convinced he's scum based on how he reacted to what he seemingly understood was a power role claim made by a player he town read? 

Yes. The only thing the mafia can do is claim to have a power role. Ragnar was pressured and claimed to have a power role. There was no reason for Zaradi to believe him,  let alone risk making himself look guilty af if Ragnar flipped scum. "Lynch all liars" aside, he would have to justify fake claiming a power role which could have caused another town power role to out themselves. Had there been another town power role (which vanilla Zaradi wouldn't know but have to assume) they obviously would have called BS on Zaradi's fake claim and it would have caused massive confusion in the day phase. So there would have been no townie utility at all whatsoever to fake claiming. Oh, and the mafia didn't target Zaradi so obviously they didn't think he was the doctor.


#122
Lunatic
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@coal
Most of your post above is circular and it does not now and has not changed my mind about Zaradi.
Yeah, definitely not trying to change your mind anymore, you have shown it was made up on the issue already lol.

  You want me to VTL Zaradi and are implying that my disinclination to do that implies that I'm scum, which again is just a creative way to say "you disagree with me and therefore you're scum."
Nah you didn't even read what I said. I told you at this point you've already sold your soul to the devil by not accepting what zaradi did as scummy before he even said it. You were clearly shown the implications of what he did and are only NOW pretending to be suspect of it and open minded lol.

  You have not, in any way, dealt with the analysis I posted when I got up this morning because you are not considering, subjectively, what town Zaradi would or would not do and that is not going to get me to change my mind.
I responded to the part of your analysis that was relevant, the part where you are exonerating him because you think he is baiting a nk. I have touched that issue plenty. 

Objectively, I think Town Zaradi doesn't and shouldn't be doing what he did; also for reasons I've already said. 
Zaradi also doesn't agree with what "Town zaradi" did since he was lecturing you about openly digging for information that would implicate power roles, but was okay with one potentially CC'ing him lol.

I agree Zaradi's conduct today isn't helping him; and if your claim that I am scum and helping him by buddying him today and setting him up for the lynch, then why on earth would I have allowed that move in the first place?
I think you also thought Ragnar's mis-understanding of the OP meant you could use it against him (you were still pressing for ragnar at that point). This post kind of shows that your inside information was intended to be used as a weapon:

That, after the nonsense he pulled last night, keeps him as a scum read.   Also, he says we should be treating him like he's dead.   Why, because he knows there's not a doctor?  Did he maybe not think about that when claiming what he did?  But the fact that he says that there is nothing that can save him implies that he knows that there's not a doctor in the game; just like he knew the setup based on the knowledge of his scum-mate's role.

If you were two goons you knew that he got it wrong because you understood the OP better, looks like you were setting him up here. If Ragnar got mislynched, you could have said "wtf ragnar lied" next DP (even though it was likely just lazy or mis-read).

#123
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@Danielle
@Lunatic
Danielle, if Zaradi is scum, then is TUF town? 
#124
Lunatic
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@coal
Whats your personal answer to that question btw?
#125
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@Danielle
"Lynch all liars" aside, he would have to justify fake claiming a power role which could have caused another town power role to out themselves. Had there been another town power role (which vanilla Zaradi wouldn't know but have to assume) they obviously would have called BS on Zaradi's fake claim and it would have caused massive confusion in the day phase. So there would have been no townie utility at all whatsoever to fake claiming. Oh, and the mafia didn't target Zaradi so obviously they didn't think he was the doctor.
The theory that Mafia didn't target Zaradi assumes that Mafia had the capability to target him in the first place, which means they had a role blocker.  

If there is a doctor, then there is also a role blocker, and if Zaradi was the doctor and scum blocked him then despite the fact that he would have been on Ragnar as the doc, Ragnar still dies.

Bottom line; scum have a role blocker, or they don't.  If they do, they may or may not have used it on Zaradi. 

It is possible Zaradi is lying again about having a power role, and he is a doc, which should mean that he should be tunneling you and TUF hard.  

I am, though, having a harder and harder time seeing what Zaradi thought would happen because he has cast doubt on the reasons I initially thought he did what he did.  So if he is saying I'm wrong then I don't understand what that was all about.

I agree with you on the anti-town utility; and that is why I was, at least conceptually, still 95% down with Ragnar's lynch.  But the anti-town utility Zaradi created is less than that of Ragnar.

But TUF is playing differently today.  Perhaps that's not because he's being tunnelled by both of Zaradi and I.  

If Zaradi is scum and TUF is town then I'm going to feel like at least as much of a moron here as I felt like when trying to master the new technology of Discord. 
#126
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@Lunatic
You first.  I have my thoughts and will post them, but you answer my question first. 
#127
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I am just going to say as well that I very much do not like the "like" feature because I can't see who is liking these posts.  
#128
Lunatic
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@coal
I am just going to say as well that I very much do not like the "like" feature because I can't see who is liking these posts.  
I liked danis 119 and 121 if it matters lol
#129
Lunatic
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@coal
You first.  I have my thoughts and will post them, but you answer my question first. 

Your asking me if my opinion on whether I am town or not would change? No I would still think I am town lol.
#130
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@Lunatic
Sorry.  Yes, I am inclined to believe if Zaradi flips scum you have to be town. 
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#131
Lucky
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Official Vote Count

Zaradi [2]: Lunatic (36), Danielle (39),
coal [0]:
airmax1227 [0]:
Danielle [0]:
Lunatic [0]:
sui_generis [0]:
oromagi [0]:

Not Voting [5]: airmax1227, coal, Zaradi, sui_generis, oromagi

With 7 in play, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 11:00pm EST Wednesday, May 27th.

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#132
Lucky
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@warren42
@Speedrace
Mod Note: Airmax and Zaradi have requested replacement. Warren is replacing Airmax. Speedrace is replacing Zaradi.
#133
Speedrace
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Hi, can someone catch me up
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#134
Lucky
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Mod Note: Sui_Generis has been prodded.
#135
Lunatic
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@Speedrace
Hey speed! I will in a bit, just give let me finish this match of warzone with mike
#136
Lunatic
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@warren42
@sui_generis
Key Events of DP1

- Zaradi starts a case on me 
- Coal reads it and instantly switches his town read on me (lol)
-  The Ragnar wagon starts
- Objectivity gets modkilled for post editing.
- Raganar at L-1, softs a power role by saying he knows there is a roleblocker (This is an important one because most of the discussion in the game has centered around this event)
- I unvote and suggest we do not talk about Ragnar's claim further. (this fvcking post almost gets me lynched later which is why I note it a key event)
- Coal doubts the claim, and continues to openly speculate about Ragnar's role despite Zaradi and I suggesting its a bad idea
- Zaradi soft claims a power role (This post has been the major focus of dp2, very important to read this)

Most of the rest of this phase is me arguing for my life based on people not liking my post where I unvoted for Ragnar. I argue ad nauseum with sui, coal, danielle, and zaradi which feels like arguing with a brick wall and goes nowhere. Luckily I scrape by the end of that day phase at L-1 by the skin of my nuts because the rest of everyone else was too inactive to hammer me. 

Key Events of DP2

This one is much shorter, I probably don't need to catch you up on much.  At the start, me and coal resume our FOS'es on each other.

- Zaradi continues to deny he was bread crumbing being a power role
- Danielle brings up Zaradi's post 632 to from DP1 that confirms he actually was hardclaiming. In light of Ragnars flip we realize that Ragnar mis-understood the OP whe he soft claimed, which indicates that if Zaradi was the second power role like he kept hinting at, he should have protected Ragnar who was the only other PR, which makes him look scummy.
- I get on board with this logic 
- Oro gets on board with this logic.
- Coal gives zaradi an excuse and defends his actions for zaradi, and set him up with a scapegoat answer before he can even speak for himself
- Zaradi finally gets on and conveniently pretty much chooses the exact response Coal already set up for him and admits to trying to bait the night kill as a vanilla (lol)
- I bring up the how this is hypocritical since he was lecturing Coal for digging for info in the previous phase, but was okay to potentially be CC'ed which is even worse
- Me and danielle argue the finer points of this with coal while waiting for inactive townies to help us lynch zaradi, since it's pretty damn obvious at this point he is scum

And now you guys are here! My DP1 summary pretty much mentions all the key points, and while I gave a summary of DP2, there is a lot of fine details I left out about the zaradi case, so I highly reccomend you read it. If he still isn't lynched by tomorrow afternoon when I get to work I will elaborate the case out in a google document to help speed things up, since I haven't had the time today. But basically we are just waiting on a zaradi lynch, and need yalls support.
#137
Lunatic
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@Speedrace
meant to tag speed in the above whoops
#138
Speedrace
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@Lunatic
Thanks! I'll read everything in the morning. Also remind me to give you my tag so you can add me on Warzone
#139
Lunatic
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@Speedrace
For sure it would be fun to play with you

#140
Danielle
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@coal
Danielle, if Zaradi is scum, then is TUF town? 

I don't know - I haven't analyzed behavior/interactions yet because I've been focused on how incredibly anti-town Zaradi's actions were. I will say that if Zaradi flips town, I will probably scum read you because there is no planet in the universe where Zaradi's actions can't be read as definitively scummy. Only an informed mafioso looking for town cred later would try so hard to look for ways to justify it because it stands out as so blatantly illogical. Unless Zaradi has a history of engaging in ridiculous shenanigans like that as town (I think Lucky has a reputation for doing that? Not sure) then everything he did was anti-town, period.

Of course if he is scum, and he probably is, we will have to think about why you're doing this as well. 

The fact that he has put forth lolz reasons to come at me (me taking a 90 minute break from the game) and has largely gone silent/just given up pretty much tells me he's scum.


#141
Lunatic
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@warren42
Sup buddy!
#142
Lunatic
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@sui_generis
Where ya at fool!
#143
Lunatic
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@Speedrace
Get a chance to read through things yet?
#144
Lunatic
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Playerlist:

Warren (airmax1227)
Danielle
Lunatic
coal
Speedrace (Zaradi)
sui_generis
oromagi


#145
Lunatic
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@Danielle
For some reason I just realized speedrace replaced zaradi, I thought he had replaced oromagi.

Interesting that Zaradi chose to rage quit after a little FOS. 

VTL speedrace.

Danielle, make sure to re-vote speed
#146
Lunatic
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Lucky should have just left the zaradi slot empty since it's getting lynched anyway, and used speedrace for oromagi or sui...

I feel bad for speed lol. I don't want him wasting his time trying to refute a case on a slot he just filled just for him to get lynched anyway.
#147
warren42
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@Speedrace
I'm gonna need a claim from you.
#148
warren42
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I'll wade through the first day phase at some point but damn that's a lot
#149
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@warren42
#150
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@warren42
The first link was Zaradi's claim before he was replaced by Speedrace.

This link is a catch up post I made for you and speed to save you a bit of time. I am also in the middle of my case on Coal/Speedrace (zaradi) and will be posting it soon.