Themeless Mafia 1 - Day Phase 2

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#91
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@Zaradi
Also if you acknowledge that Coal was indeed setting you up conveniently to draw the night kill, why did you keep pretending to sound perplexed when Danielle pointed it out?


#92
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@Lunatic
Why does me wanting to draw the NK mean I have to believe theres a roleblocker? Why cant vanilla's try to draw the NK regardless of setup?

Also, I object to vanilla's trying to draw the NK as anti-town. Vanilla's dying over a town PR is pretty fucking beneficial for town. You are correct, however, that it is a risk, hence why I didn't come into the game wanting to do that.
#93
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@Lunatic
Also if you acknowledge that Coal was indeed setting you up conveniently to draw the night kill, why did you keep pretending to sound perplexed when Danielle pointed it out?
I was perplexed. I didn't think I had softed anything that day phase (still don't). So I wanted to know what she saw (which makes no fucking sense for me to ask if I'm actually a PR, btw. I'd be either ignoring or trying to stop as much discussion of me being a PR as reasonably possible).



#94
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That, after the nonsense he pulled last night, keeps him as a scum read.   Also, he says we should be treating him like he's dead.   Why, because he knows there's not a doctor?  Did he maybe not think about that when claiming what he did?  But the fact that he says that there is nothing that can save him implies that he knows that there's not a doctor in the game; just like he knew the setup based on the knowledge of his scum-mate's role.
By the way given, what we know now, this post looks very shady from coal...
#95
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@Lunatic
I've answered your questions. You said your read on danielle was dependent on how I answered your questions. I want your read on danielle now
#96
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@Zaradi
Why does me wanting to draw the NK mean I have to believe theres a roleblocker?

Did you have a reason to doubt Ragnar's claim of having knowledge of the existence of a roleblocker? This seems like a slip. You of course if scum, may have already known that it was a 2 goon set up, which very much explains you being okay with Coal setting you up for being a PR.

Why cant vanilla's try to draw the NK regardless of setup?

I'm not going to get drawn into an off-topic meta argument here. because that's not what I said. If you are town going to pull a strategy like that you'd have to hiope the real power role would be in on it as well though.

It's an open set-up, in this specific scenario a true townie would have no reason to doubt the claim that there was a roleblocker (especially since you also town read ragnar) which meant that the other power role was a doctor or mason. You would have known that playing along with the "draw the nk" strategy could potentially mean you would get CC'ed. If you are town you would know that's anti-town. If you were Mafia with inside knowledge there was 2 goons, you might think this is a safe way to play off being a potential power role while using this exact scapegoat you are using now if it you were wrong. 

Also, I object to vanilla's trying to draw the NK as anti-town. Vanilla's dying over a town PR is pretty fucking beneficial for town. You are correct, however, that it is a risk, hence why I didn't come into the game wanting to do that.


I don't buy that you really took a risk here either, otherwise you would have been a little more forth-right with it. You played the line just enough so you could have a scape goat either way...
#97
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@Zaradi
post 83
#98
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@Zaradi
Of the power roles that were most likely, you were the only one playing like you had one; and of the most likely on that list I posted before, if you had that role then Ragnar didn't, which is why I didn't know what to make of what you were doing yesterday.  

And then when I tried to figure out what was going on, you shut me down and then I figured that the reason you shut me down was because you were saying he was a mason with you; which would explain both why you weren't on Ragnar's lynch and why you were going after TUF all day yesterday.

But that all happened pretty quickly.  There was a set of possible claims that Ragnar was making and I had no idea what he was saying.  But I initially didn't think he was claiming mason, which is why I presumed that if you were breadcrumbing it had to be something other than mason.  

Then you all but hard claimed mason, so I backed off of him.  

And while you weren't being truthful, I still do not see why you would ever do something like that as scum.  

But this question is strange.  Are you saying you weren't trying to do the thing I town read you for? 
#99
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@Lunatic
I am reconsidering this based on your post 77. 
#100
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@Lunatic
Did you have a reason to doubt Ragnar's claim of having knowledge of the existence of a roleblocker?
No? 

You would have known that playing along with the "draw the nk" strategy could potentially mean you would get CC'ed. If you are town you would know that's anti-town.
That is the risk associated with vanilla's trying to draw the NK, yes. That's if I get CC'd though. If I dont get cc'd, though, and I draw the NK, it's a massive win for town in that the PR's get night actions off. Town PR's getting night actions off = pretty fucking pro-town.

To be clear, again, I didn't come into the game wanting to soft a PR. 

I don't buy that you really took a risk here either,
The cognitive dissonance to say that drawing the NK risks outting a TPR while also saying that I didn't take a risk is staggering.
#101
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@Zaradi
I was perplexed. I didn't think I had softed anything that day phase (still don't). So I wanted to know what she saw (which makes no fucking sense for me to ask if I'm actually a PR, btw. I'd be either ignoring or trying to stop as much discussion of me being a PR as reasonably possible).

You were perplexed but also acknowledge you took a risk by playing along with coal's insinuation you were a power role? 
#102
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@Lunatic
You were perplexed but also acknowledge you took a risk by playing along with coal's insinuation you were a power role?
Yes? I could've said I wasnt a pr to shut down that entire conversation and give mafia zero reason to NK me. But I didn't. So I played along with it.
#103
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@coal
And then when I tried to figure out what was going on, you shut me down
What? What do you mean I shut you down. You cant be talking about the whole "me having a PR" debacle because I encouraged you and asked you multiple times to discuss it.

But this question is strange. Are you saying you weren't trying to do the thing I town read you for?
That would depend on what you were tring me for. If it was for playing like I had a pr, then yes. 
#104
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@Danielle
Where are you at? I'd expect you to be pushing me by now
#105
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@Zaradi
Did you have a reason to doubt Ragnar's claim of having knowledge of the existence of a roleblocker?
No? 
So if you didn't have any reason not to believe there was a roleblocker, then for all intensive purposes, you thought there was a roleblocker, which meant that you knew there was a second town power role and that by softing it you risked being CC'ed...

You would have known that playing along with the "draw the nk" strategy could potentially mean you would get CC'ed. If you are town you would know that's anti-town.
That is the risk associated with vanilla's trying to draw the NK, yes. That's if I get CC'd though. If I dont get cc'd, though, and I draw the NK, it's a massive win for town in that the PR's get night actions off. Town PR's getting night actions off = pretty fucking pro-town.

To be clear, again, I didn't come into the game wanting to soft a PR. 

I get that you claim you didn't come into the game looking to do it. But the fact of the matter is that you DID go along with it, and it's not like you had to. And if you weren't lecturing Coal for baiting information out it wouldn't look nearly as it does now. You thought Coal (and Dani for that matter) was going too far by digging for information and openly speculating about power roles right? It's the one thing we agreed on last day phase. But then you are suddenly okay with risking outting the other PR by going along with it? It's hypocritical for one thing, but then I don't think you really thought of the negative impact of what you were doing, because you could still potentially just claim ignorance to ever softing in the first place...

I don't buy that you really took a risk here either,
The cognitive dissonance to say that drawing the NK risks outting a TPR while also saying that I didn't take a risk is staggering.
You know what I am actually saying though, because of your constant perplexity of the bread crumbing (which you've now admitted to par-taking of) you likely didn't see this scenario biting you in the butt the way it has, and I expect you were willing to dismiss the idea entirely that you had soft claimed.
#106
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@Zaradi
So I'll give both of you two the same challenge I gave coal: find a post where I'm softing having a PR pre-ragnar softclaim. You won't be able to, because that wasnt my gameplan coming into the game.

You are setting up a false dichotomy in which you are saying that no soft claim prior to Ragnar's post somehow exonerates the anti-town nature of your fake claim what you did when it really has no bearing on anything.  

Also, I object to vanilla's trying to draw the NK as anti-town. Vanilla's dying over a town PR is pretty fucking beneficial for town
It was in this case, because had there been another town power role (which statistically was likely) your fake claim would mandate they out themselves to call you a liar. 

#107
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I don't think we should let Zaradi distract us at this point. Fake claiming a power role would be stupid because #1 there was likely another town power role (statistically) who would have to out themselves to call Zaradi a liar, and #2 if he was vanilla then he had no reason at all to accept Ragnar's claim as cop lol. 

Zaradi is scum, let's get this over with. 
#108
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@Zaradi
You were perplexed but also acknowledge you took a risk by playing along with coal's insinuation you were a power role?
Yes? I could've said I wasnt a pr to shut down that entire conversation and give mafia zero reason to NK me. But I didn't. So I played along with it.

There is no reason you should have been perplexed when Dani or Coal asked you about the bread crumb then if you were knowingly playing along. If you were playing to bait the night kill, you did it in the most useless way possible. At that point you might as well have come out and admitted it, which would have still been anti-town, but at least easier for us to buy. The way you supposedly did it allowed for you to dismiss the possibility that you were baiting the night kill entirely! There was absolutely no reason to play dumb when Danielle asked you if you were breadcrumbing at that point!!
#109
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@Zaradi
Where are you at? I'd expect you to be pushing me by now

Sorry I took a 90 minute break from the game lol. 
#110
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@sui_generis
@oromagi
@airmax1227
Well I'll get to work on a case against Zaradi. I am about to drive home from work and have an hour drive, so it will be a while. In the mean time, if you have time, please read the day phase if you haven't. Most relevant posts from DP1 should be linked already, though I will format it better in the case I make. If I end up gaming with max later, I will post pone the case until tonight after he's hit the hay. 
#111
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@Zaradi
So explain to me just what the hell it was that you were trying to do and why. 
#112
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@Lunatic
ou thought Coal (and Dani for that matter) was going too far by digging for information and openly speculating about power roles right? It's the one thing we agreed on last day phase. But then you are suddenly okay with risking outting the other PR by going along with it? It's hypocritical for one thing, but then I don't think you really thought of the negative impact of what you were doing, because you could still potentially just claim ignorance to ever softing in the first place...
I agree with this statement, sort of.   Accepting this logic requires me to reframe my entire read of Zaradi, but potentially that is necessary.  

I suppose, sort of, I can see how scum Zaradi does what he did.  I'm still skeptical, though.  I can still see why vanilla townie Zaradi does the same thing; and I am still leaning in that direction.  

I need to hear more from Zaradi, though, on why he did what he did. and what the hell he was tryiung to do and what he thought he woiuld be achieving. 
#113
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@coal
I respect the attempt at town cred here, but I am not buying it. Zaradi answered exactly how you expected him to (probably based on lots of prodding in the PM). You set up the scenario for him way before he got online and posted it himself. Trying to look open minded about this now just makes you look more suspect. I brought up to you the implications of his actions before he even posted, and you were okay accepting them as a town tell before... All of what Zaradi said sums up perfectly with the narrative for him you had already conveniently set up lol. 

To me this post reads like you are wanting to seem like you considered lynching him in case the others get on and buy it and lynch him, so it will give you some town cred later on, or if they for some reason don't buy it, you can revert to your town read on him and say you buy his explanation. Maybe you hope this will get you a townread in the next day phase.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for you voting for your scum buddy, but you've already signed your life to his in blood in my eyes lol. 

What new answers are you expecting from him? He's revealed everything already, and it simply contradicts what he's said already. He claims he went along with you softing him as a PR, which meant he was fully aware of the consequences of doing that, and admits to the risk. But at the same time he plays dumb and asks both Danielle and you to show proof of him bread-crumbing, which is him feigning ignorance to going with the soft claim. There was 0 reason for him to keep going along with this after Ragnar's flip, and he continued to do so. So at the start of this day phase, he wasn't planning to admit he was softing to draw the night kill, but now he's going with that because he's backed into a corner. You should have been aware of all that before zaradi even posted.

What makes me all the more suspect of all this is before he posted I was weighing in my mind what I would do in this situation as scum between weighing the options of

1. Admitting I was the doctor and claiming to be roleblocked
2. Admitting I was the doctor and come up with some crazy BS reason for choosing to doc someone else and hoping people would buy it
3. Going with the situation Coal set up; Saying I was trying to draw the nk and actually being vanilla.

All three are pretty horrible, and I expected I would scum read him for any of them, but wanted his response just in case he had a better excuse that made perfect sense and maybe I just hadn't thought of it.  1 would have been the best option if he had started out even hinting at some annoyance for being roleblocked, if not outright saying it since it was pretty well thought he was a PR anyway. 2 would have been a hard sell, probably not worth trying. 3. Still bad, but semi-explainable but opens a whole other can of worms that go against things he said last day phase of things I mentioned already.
#114
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I repeat: if Zaradi was vanilla, he had no reason to accept Ragnar's declaration of having a power role.
#115
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@Lunatic
Most of your post above is circular and it does not now and has not changed my mind about Zaradi.  You want me to VTL Zaradi and are implying that my disinclination to do that implies that I'm scum, which again is just a creative way to say "you disagree with me and therefore you're scum."  You have not, in any way, dealt with the analysis I posted when I got up this morning because you are not considering, subjectively, what town Zaradi would or would not do and that is not going to get me to change my mind.

There are two possible worlds: one where he is town, and one where he is scum.  I have already said why, subjectively, there is no world where scum Zaradi does what he did yesterday because he would have known that he would be exactly in the situation that he is in now with you and Danielle.  It's too much WIFOM for me to believe it.  I have also already said why, objectively, there is no reason why scum Zaradi does what he did because he would be setting himself up for the lynch.  So you either have to believe one of two worlds: town world he just pushed the envelope by doing risky things, but scum world he is suicidally stupid because he would have understood the risk of being in exactly the position he's in now.  And the issue then becomes, what is more plausible. 

Objectively, I think Town Zaradi doesn't and shouldn't be doing what he did; also for reasons I've already said.  It's a risky strategy, but as town he isn't going to be able to fully appreciate that risk until he's scum; which means he leaped without looking, and now you are trying to nail him to the cross for it.  Subjectively, I can see exactly why from Zaradi's perspective he did what he did which was the first post I made this morning since.  So I am thinking through this in a way very different than you are.  I suppose I will have to spell it out more clearly in a subsequent post.

I agree Zaradi's conduct today isn't helping him; and if your claim that I am scum and helping him by buddying him today and setting him up for the lynch, then why on earth would I have allowed that move in the first place?  I already said the three obvious reasons why it was a risky move and literally NO ONE IN THIS GAME OTHER THAN YOU was scum reading Zaradi, and the only reason you were scum reading Zaradi was because he VTL'd you (which is what you always do any time anyone VTLs you).  So again return to Zarad's subjective perspective here:  As scum, why does he willfully put himself in the line of fire, when he had absoutely no reason to do so, and it in no way AT ALL helps scum interests because of the obvious consequenses of what those actions would be?  Again, you have to assume he is suicidally stupid as scum, which is why I don't believe it. 

I am not VTLing Zaradi based on what you have said.  I have not had the chance to really read the DP yet because of work stuff, but there is no way I am VTLing Zaradi based on the case you made against him which -- today as yesterday -- is just that you think his play is stupid and bad.  

Give me a reason why the hell it makes sense for scum Zaradi to do what he did, and then I will consider but you have not done that.  And those reasons should be different than what Danielle has already said because I've thought about that and am still considering.  If you want to add on, fine.  But don't just repeat.  

#116
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@Danielle
I repeat: if Zaradi was vanilla, he had no reason to accept Ragnar's declaration of having a power role.
Yes, I agree, but Zaradi was town reading Ragnar independently of Ragnar's claim.  Objectivley I agree.  Everyting Ragnar did yesterday meant he should be lynched for reasons I've already stated.  But Zaradi disagreed and Ragnar flipped town.  Zaradi as scum should have jumped on that wagon at some point. 

What's the alternative world; he hammers Ragnar and the cop flips town?
#117
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@coal
What's the alternative world; he hammers Ragnar and the cop flips town?

He obviously would have looked scummy if he voted for Ragnar after he lied and declared his role proved Ragnar to be innocent.

Reading Ragnar town means positively nothing in day phase 1, and Ragnar wasn't participating much anyhow to have that strong of a read. So what you're saying is that Zaradi fake claimed a power role when #1 it was statistically likely that town had another power role that would have to out themselves to challenge Zaradi as a liar, and #2 he would risk himself and outing the one other town power role when he didn't know for sure if Ragnar was innocent. 

None of that is pro town. 
#118
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@coal
Zaradi as scum should have jumped on that wagon at some point. 

So you're letting one thing you read townish outweigh the 3 anti-town things he did? This doesn't even make sense -- he couldn't have jumped on the Ragnar wagon after lying and sayin his role proved Ragnar to be town. Plus, if you believe he was a vanilla townie lying to draw the NK, then again he couldn't have jumped on Ragnar's wagon after saying his role confirmed Ragnar's claim. 

At this point I agree you are trying  too hard to justify his actions.

#119
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@Danielle
So you're letting one thing you read townish outweigh the 3 anti-town things he did?
Taking into account the whole day phase, you are convinced he's scum based on how he reacted to what he seemingly understood was a power role claim made by a player he town read? 

I'm not saying I won't vote for him, I'm saying that my No. 1 VTL target yesterday hasn't said anything to get me to change my mind. 
#120
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@Zaradi
I am still waiting for your response to my earlier post.