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@Mopac
Particles are simply transformed from energy. Just something that already exists changing form.
Where Is God?
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@drafterman
In other words, particles came into being, because they are created things.
We do not deny that there is a divine uncreated energy, but have taught this for millennia. However, it should still be pointed out that not all energies are uncreated.
Creation is as the flesh of God incarnate. We say God speaks things into existence. Creation is the flesh that is both created by The Word and dwellled in by The Word.
That is the language we use, but as I said before it would be a mistake to take this as implying that God has lungs or a mouth as people do outside of the incarnation. God The Father, as we put it, does not have parts, but rather is incomprehensible and a singularity by nature.
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@Mopac
Can you point to an example of created energy?
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@drafterman
If an energy originated at the beginning of the universe rather than before the beginning of the universe, it would be a created energy.
Ultimately, even created energy came out of uncreated energy. To us, God's essence is One with His Energy, so we would say that The Uncreated Energy is God. When we are aligned with this energy, we say we are walking in the grace of God, made divine through cooperation with these divine energies.
I'd like to point out that a lot of this stuff is really mysterious, and head knowledge has very little to do with our faith. Rather, our faith has to do with a specific type of relationship towards God. Everything we do has to do with the relationship.
I highly doubt God is this " uncreated energy " Moe Moe .
For God is the ultimate reality.
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@Mopac
There is no "begining" to the universe. It is uncreated and eternal. So please provide an example of created energy. Is it kinetic? Gravitational? Potential?
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@Salixes
He is in your blind spot.
Trying turning your head a bit to the Left or a bit to the Right.
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@drafterman
Whether or not the universe came to be is certainly debatable. Not something I am interested in debating. I know that it has always existed in a temporal sense. You could say the universe is eternal because time is a quality of the universe, the universe has always existed in time. However, it is not pre-eternal. That is, time is contingent on Ultimate Reality, Ultimate Reality is not contingent on time.
But as I said
"Ultimately, even created energy came out of uncreated energy."
So it isn't important.
We definitely are not pantheists though. We are more accurately described as panentheists.
Whatever The Ultimate Reality is, that is God. The Ultimate Reality is certainly "bigger" for lack of a better word, than the universe.
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@Mopac
I just need a specific example of created energy.
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@drafterman
So you can say that no energy is created and destroyed, and dismiss the whole thing?
The church doesn't really even speak of created energies, only the uncreated energy. I may have spoke presumptuously because this is one of my weaker subjects.
I can say that it is written,
"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
And I can confirm this truth, that those who do not walk The Way cannot know The Truth, and do not abide in The Life.
I can confirm the truth as is spoken by Christ in The Gospel according to John,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
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@Mopac
Okay, but if reality is already eternal and uncreated, what do I need a bridge for?
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@drafterman
The Ultimate Reality is Eternal and Uncreated.
The reality you experience is transient, created, and illusory.
Jesus Christ is the most perfect image of God. If you see the most perfect image, you see God. Abiding in The Way purifies the heart so that you can see God.
Knowledge of God is not intellectual, it is experiential.
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@drafterman
Simple answer?
To cleanse oneself of delusion and to walk in The Way of Truth. Unity with The Truth is unity with God. That is salvation. Theosis.
Catharsis
Theophany
Theoria
Theosis
Something like that.
Where is God?
A 20 year prison sentence will greatly increase your chances of finding God.
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@Mopac
I experience reality directly, just like everyone else. No bridge needed.
And Jesus, being a human being inside reality, can't be a perfect image of it.
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@drafterman
I experience reality directly, just like everyone else
You appear to be expressing naïve realism.
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@drafterman
And Jesus, being a human being inside reality, can't be a perfect image of it.
If Jesus Christ were simply a human being, the scripture would not say, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man"
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@Mopac
You appear to be expressing naïve realism.
I said that I, like everyone else, directly experiences reality, not that the perception of reality is the same among everyone.
If Jesus Christ were simply a human being, the scripture would not say, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man"
I don't see why not. The scripture was just a book of myths written by other human beings.
Regardless, unless your scripture says that Jesus was the entirety of space-time and all of the energy and matter contained therein, then he wasn't a perfect image of reality.
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@drafterman
To say that scripture is "just" a book of myths is very dismissive.
unless your scripture says that Jesus was the entirety of space-time and all of the energy and matter contained therein, then he wasn't a perfect image of reality
"the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."
I said that I, like everyone else, directly experiences reality, not that the perception of reality is the same among everyone
Everyone directly experiences a reality, and everyone's experience is their personal relationship with God.
But the reality that we experience is not ultimately real. It should be apparent that the inadequacy of our senses, the propensity of the mind to hallucinate, the desires and motivations of our heart, and the narrowness of our perspective act as strong evidences that the way we experience reality is not reality as it truly is.
Our discipline has everything to do with casting out delusion and seeing The Truth more clearly.
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@Mopac
To say that scripture is "just" a book of myths is very dismissive.
You're right, there are parables and poetry, but we're ignoring those for this conversation, remember?
unless your scripture says that Jesus was the entirety of space-time and all of the energy and matter contained therein, then he wasn't a perfect image of reality"the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."
But reality (nor anything in it) was created, unless we're just talking about the reordering of extant particles. But reality can't fit on a cross and bleed. So if Jesus fit on a cross and bled on it, he wasn't the perfect image of reality.
I said that I, like everyone else, directly experiences reality, not that the perception of reality is the same among everyoneEveryone directly experiences a reality, and everyone's experience is their personal relationship with God.But the reality that we experience is not ultimately real. It should be apparent that the inadequacy of our senses, the propensity of the mind to hallucinate, the desires and motivations of our heart, and the narrowness of our perspective act as strong evidences that the way we experience reality is not reality as it truly is.
Those are perceptions, which I already addressed. We all experience THE reality, though our perceptions of it differ.
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@drafterman
There isn't really anything else to discuss at this point. You don't really respect the faith, and I can't help but have the sneaking suspicion that I am only equipping an enemy of the church.
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@drafterman
<br>Oh? How long does that usually take? I'm going on 3 decades almost. I hope he decides to do it before I die, since my immortal soul and eternal torment are on the line here.
One could argue, God already has let every man know what they are to do next. In light of the resurrection, and the coming judgment of the world by God,, the apostle Paul tells the Aeriopagites:
"He commandeth all men everywhere to repent..." (Acts 17:30)
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@OntologicalSpider
That's Paul, I want to hear from God.
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@drafterman
Post 9
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Post 10
"without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Thst is really all there is to it. You don't get what you ask for because you ask amiss.
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@drafterman
What if God spoke through Paul?
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@Mopac
You said we weren't going to use parables or poems, sorry.
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@OntologicalSpider
Then good for Paul? Doesn't do me a lick of good.
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@drafterman
What would you count as hearing from God? What would that look like to you
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@OntologicalSpider
I have no idea. But no worries, if God exists, he knows what it would take.