Even though I cannot confirm nything without my existing, you can while you exist.
How am I capable of confirming "nothing?"
Pardon the misspelling (anything). (^8
What I am saying is that even if I did not exist (thus, I would not be capable of confirming anything) you in your existence would still confirm things. Thus, I am not necessary for the physical universe existing.
Either that, or one of us is having a conversation with ourselves. Does my non-existence mean that nothing of the physical universe exists? I thought you would agree the physical still exists since you would still exist, would you not? Or does you existing depend on me existence? That seems to be what you are saying. If I die would you still exist? Am I the necessary being that grants you your existence? If so, your argument from before that you are that necessary being is void.
Where are you getting this from? This is the reason I always mention "seem" is not an argument. Quote me verbatim and demonstrate how your recent "reference" compares with mine.
"Seem" is a way of giving you a chance to explain any misconceptions on my part, if you feel I am misrepresenting you.
Our conversation starts with Post 45 (page 2).
Post 56: "How are these principles intelligible independent of our minds when our minds are used to rationalize?"
They are independent of your existence in that they existed before you existed, thus your mind is not necessary for their existence. Thus, a necessary mind is required since your mind is not that mind.
Post 69: "You assert that they are independent of the mind; how does one know this?"
Again, you misrepresent what I said, "They exist without you thinking them. They are (or do you deny this?), and they are independent of your and my mind but still need mindfulness to know." I never contended they are independent of a mind (your misrepresentation - one of many as you create a whole paragraph of misrepresentation), just not your mind or mine. You did not pt these principles into being. Neither did I. I don't have to think them for them to be true. Thus, my mind is not necessary for their truth. Neither is yours.
What I am establishing is that your mind is not necessary for their existence. I contend that God's mind is for His mind is the necessary mind. Then I go on to explain why and how your mind cannot be the necessary mind for such truths. You continually argue that your mind is necessary, thus I question whether your mind is the only mind because I contend that my mind is not necessary for these things to exist or be true. They exist with or without your mind thinking them yet you continue to argue that your mind is necessary for their existence.
Either you or I are wrong.
Post 69: I contend, "Even if your mind was not, there would still be these four physical objects (2+2) I keep bumping into or knocking over or feeling..."
Again, you immediately misrepresent me:
You: "Without the mind, physicality would be irrational."
I'm not arguing for without the mind, I'm arguing for without your mind or my mind as the necessary mind. for the existence of these concepts and truths.
Post 76: Me, "I assert they are independent of our human minds. Can you show me a mind that is necessary for them to exist, a necessary mind? You insist mind is necessary for the existence of the physical. Which mind? Is your mind necessary for such existence? I say they will exist if you do not. "
"Your limited, subjective mind does not have what is necessary. I will argue that you are not having this conversation with yourself.
If only you exist you will address yourself. Here you go, "I am delusional!" There, you have stated this since only you exist.
Why are you having a conversation with yourself? Are you lonely? Just create a fictitious being to converse with. Oh, you are, or should you say, "I have!"
Since I have created this conversation with myself, I win! My ultra-ego, who I am talking to, is wrong! That ultra-ego is insane, therefore...(fill in the rest)"
"What I am saying is that your mind is not necessary for physicality."
Post 102: Me, "I assert they are independent of our human minds. Can you show me a mind that is necessary for them to exist, a necessary mind?"
You: "Yes, your mind."
Again, I argue my mind is not the necessary mind, that they would exist apart from my mind existing.
Me: "You insist mind is necessary for the existence of the physical. Which mind? Is your mind necessary for such existence?"
You: "All minds. And yes, my mind is necessary."
Again, I show all minds are not necessary for their existence and your mind is not necessary either. I do this by establishing that if your mind did not exist these physical things would still be here. Thus, your mind is not necessary, only necessary for you thinking and perceiving them.
Me: "I say they will exist if you do not."
You: "I do and will always exist. Existence is not the same as survival."
Another smoke-screen. There was a time when you did not exist. Did they exist before you? Again, your statement brings to mind if you think that these things would not be so if you did not exist, if you were never conceived of and born. That is the question. I'm not questioning the difference between existence and survival. I'm questioning whether you believe they exist apart from you and if they do then you are not necessary for their existence. If they do not exist apart from you then I question whether you are the only mind in existence because I understand that they existed before other minds existed and they will still exist after they die. I cite my parents as an example.
That is why I question what you believe, whether you believe whether you are the only one in existence. You confirm later that you are not yet you still suggest that your mind is necessary for their existence. If your mind did not exist as the necessary mind how could they exist, which brings into question whether I exist to your mind or are you having a conversation with yourself. I point out that such thinking would be lunacy.
Me: "If I did not exist, you would still be aware of the physical, so my mind is not necessary for its existence."
You: "Yes, because my mind in my own experience is operative and necessary, just as yours is. This does not inform and independent existence outside of our minds' rationalization."
Yes, what? Are you admitting that if I did not exist the physical universe would not exist because my mind is necessary for its existence?
I have argued my mind is not the necessary mind, but you continually insist your mind is. Thus, I ask, is your mind necessary for the existence of the physical universe? (I.e., would it exist or not if you did not?) I argue that one of us is wrong because I question that your mind is the necessary mind. You can't have it both ways. Either the physical existence existed before you did or your mind is necessary for its existence.
Me: "Yet, there was a time when you did not (exist)."
You: "Can you confirm this?"
Can you confirm you have always existed? I believe I have a better and more logical argument. But, again, I do not believe I always existed, so we are in conflict to what is the truth. You already admitted that there was a time when you were not.
You: "My sentience had a beginning."
Me: "Did the universe exist before that time (just not to you)?"
You: "Yes, it was just as much of an expression of the perceptions and mental faculties of those who preceded me."
Again, your thoughts are in conflict. There is an inconsistency in them that speaks of faulty thinking.
Again, this shows that your mind is not necessary for the existence of the physical universe, what I have argued all along. I have argued my mind is not necessary also. What mind is necessary? You say all??? But you just showed otherwise. Can you prove that you were here when the physical universe originated if all minds are necessary for its existence? Or do you believe the universe is eternal? Do you believe the universe is physical, that there is something outside our minds?
You continue to dismiss much of what I say with a non-sequitur (it does not follow) or change what I have said to fit your narrative. It is just another way for, IMO, a relativist, to avoid accountability. IMO, you want to control the narrative and direct it where you want it to go.
This questioning of the word "seems" or "factory = house" suggests as much to me. You are constructing a narrative that favours your interpretation while ignoring many of my questions. Thus, I request that when you charge me with a fallacy that you prove your charge specifically, not just assert it.