Is god real?

Author: Alec

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#61
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@Mopac
I think that question kind of misses the point of what the bible is and what it is used for. How do we use the bible? We use the bible to teach The Way.
If you're using the bible as fact, then you need to prove that it is factual.

The bible is not our God. The bible is a witness to our God.
The bible describes God. 

I am not arguing that God exists. I am asserting that God exists.
Then that is a bare assertion.

I am also asserting that if you are in doubt about whether God exists or not, it is because you are superstitious.
No, I am "in doubt" because I have yet to see a sound argument from the theist side. 

It is nonsensical to question the existence of God. There is no legitimate debate.
There is, but you're asserting, not arguing, that God exists.

You are attempting to tie a logical fallacy to my reasoning when I have not made any reasoning. The God I presented obviously exists
This is the very thing you're trying to prove. You can't assert it, for it would commit the Bare Assertion Fallacy.

and since you have no argument against this God you want to argue about something else and call it God.
I'm arguing against your assertion, not anything else.

This is the only argument that atheists have.
I'm not a hard atheist.

It is also strangely consistent too, because to deny my God is to deny The Truth. If you do not believe in Truth, it stands to reason that you are arguing from an arbitrary position.
Are logical fallacies arbitrary?
#62
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@PressF4Respect
It is simply a matter of accepting what is meant by The Word. If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is who He says He is, The Holy Spirit is not in you, and it is impossible for you to experience these divine mysteries.
#63
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@drafterman
I agree that the universe "makes more sense" when you limit yourself to only examining it as far as your intuition goes.

Limit yourself?? are you kidding me? from your perspective that would be adding, expanding and considering a much more wholistic view rather than a limited one. Right now, if God exists you are limited by a materialistic perspective. So I don't see how this makes any sense. Even if I'm wrong how would I be limiting myself by expanding potential possibilities?
I brought in intuition to break the mold of limitations not set them.

#64
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@Alec
Is there any evidence for God?  It's what I'm trying to figure out.

Yes there is evidence but remember it's an interpretation of everything being put forward and all your abilities to reason and use logic, commonsense, correlation. In other words there isn't going to be some scientist that demonstrates God exists for you that is silly because the nature of the Creator eludes our immediate physical sense perceptions and so the scientific method is not for that purpose.
If you want evidence, which basically means that which indicates something true or valid, you have to put the pieces together for yourself....if you want evidence outside yourself and your own ability to reason you have to move over to spirituality, religious testimony, NDE's, spiritual experiences ect ect why? because now you're into the method that can reach that nature of God. That's kinda the point of spirituality, it's how we get to reach God from an unreachable position. If you want those types of experiences and knowledge you have to be willing to get into that field of expertise.

Through all my years of debating this topic I've concluded the best way to achieve any confidence of God's existence is through correlation, not focusing on the processes we observe in our universe alone, but asking yourself how any processes occur at all without intelligence and awareness behind it. Considering that intelligent processes are associated with a mind it is simple to see that awareness was first behind them. Basically you will be building for yourself a legit foundation by using your ability to see the whole picture and put it all together, then consider NDE's, spirituality and the nature of consciousness as a means to strengthen your case that there is a transcendent reality that exists beyond this planet and our limited senses.
Then you have more evidence than anyone could ever sift through in one lifetime, the fact that spiritual encounters, knowledge and experiences have pervaded our human experience here for so long, and through so many numbers it should be obvious.

But again, I challenge you to consider how energy operates in creation, ask yourself first and make sure you are comfortable with accepting that inanimate forces could ever produce intelligent processes and create sentient creatures, habitations, arrangements...and if it turns out you are not satisfied with that then now you have something to work with. You have a foundation that now proposes the processes we observe taking place within the universe come from intelligence aka God. You have to build your case from nothing to something, leaving no holes in your worldview and understanding. I can help you achieve that here.

#65
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@EtrnlVw
You are limiting yourself by presuming the universe conforms to your intuition. It doesn't.
#66
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@drafterman
You are limiting yourself by presuming the universe conforms to your intuition. It doesn't.


Surprisingly I don't think you are comprehending what I'm saying by this. And I'm not using intuition as a foundation, only as a means to expand from a limited perspective. Not only that I never said anything about the universe. 


#67
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@EtrnlVw
You literally said "first focus on your own intuition". If that's not a foundation, I don't know what is.

But that's beside the point. The point is: human intuition sucks and shouldn't be involved in any search for knowledge.
#68
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@drafterman
You literally said "first focus on your own intuition". If that's not a foundation, I don't know what is.

In relation to whom I was speaking. Alec for example, might want to consider that if he is get outside conditioned thinking.

But that's beside the point. The point is: human intuition sucks and shouldn't be involved in any search for knowledge.

If you don't want to use your own intuition then that statement was not for you. Let Alec pick up where I left it. You are not a very intuitive person, your responses are quite robotic actually and I don't mean that as an insult.


#69
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@Mopac
It is simply a matter of accepting what is meant by The Word. If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is who He says He is, The Holy Spirit is not in you, and it is impossible for you to experience these divine mysteries.
I have no problems with Christianity itself. If I see good evidence and sound reasoning for the existence of the God of the Bible, then I would become a Christian. I haven't seen such things yet.

#70
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@PressF4Respect
I have no problems with Christianity itself.

This is why I like you soo much lol. If I may interject, may I ask you what you consider Christianity? I would narrow it down to the Gospels themselves just curious what you think though, your thoughts on it minus all the dogma and interpretations.
When I was just a young kid there was something about the teachings of Jesus that made me want to love God and understand God more. 

If I see good evidence and sound reasoning for the existence of the God of the Bible, then I would become a Christian. I haven't seen such things yet.

Here's a good way to look at it. Unlike Mopac I'll be taking Jesus' position and not trying to justify religion or any organized religious institutions. If you have no problem with say...the Gospels or the teachings of Jesus consider what he taught from somebody that was an expertise in the arena of understanding God and all that it implies, a teacher in other words and from teachers is how we gain knowledge and insights.
Expand that from just Jesus, and consider that there are many sources of information that can connect you with the understanding of God. Unfortunately, everyone wants to claim Jesus as the Author of their faith and their religious clubs. And of course that's because He was such a bad azz Master and an amazing example.

Erasing all the claims of religious institutions and everyone asserting they have some inerrant understanding of the Gospels, approaching them for yourself what is it that you gain from reading the Gospels? what do you think the message is? do you like it?
You see, the actual teachings and examples are there to connect you to that reality so the evidence is in the application of it. To wait for evidence that supports the Gospels is safe, but not smart. The evidence is in the teachings and the way Jesus exemplifies Himself, the teachings are to be applied and the principles observed that is how you come to the conclusion they are legit. If you wait for something that may never surface you may miss what's being taught, or you may overlook it because you are hesitating.

It's not that you need to become some Christian per say, especially some form of religious Christian like many proselytize rather it is another way of interacting with reality and what you think you know. The teachings of Jesus are there to help you understand the nature of spirituality vs the nature of the carnal mind and desires just like many other paths of spirituality.
They are there to help you transcend what you normally think and act on, what you normally experience. In this sense it's more an application and not a religion or set of beliefs. Religion is actually irrelevant, basically you replace Jesus with yourself when you read the Gospels....minus getting crucified lol.
Again, you have to treat the Gospels as if they are the source of evidence..... that's not circular reasoning because where you have application you also have observation. And where you have observation you have your evidence.

I think if you observe the teachings of Jesus you will also find sound reasoning therein, because therein is the wisdom of what it means to abide under the shadow of the Almighty. It would be like plugging directly into a power source but not through religion, not tradition and certainly not pressure from some silly so-called authority that you need to join or become a follower of. The only thing you would be obligated to do from a spiritual perspective is to apply things to yourself, to be flexible and teachable to truth outside of what you think you know. But that is how you learn and gain things and it's no different with spirituality you have to be willing to submit to another way of doing things. 

More than likely you will never find any good reasoning or evidence for the God of the Bible, rather you will find good reasoning and evidence to accept God exists and then you will see that there is good reasoning behind what Jesus teaches, different approach with the same things in mind. 

#71
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@PressF4Respect
You already believe in our God, as you professed to believe the Ultimate Reality exists.

#72
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@EtrnlVw
All good religion points to Christ. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of not just the law and prophets of Judaism, but all true religion.


What do I claim about The Orthodox Church? That it is the historical church and that true and enlightened Christianity is present in the doctrine and mind of the church.

If you teach a different Christianity or a different Jesus, your position is heterodox, not orthodox.

The True Church is a Sacred Mystery with institutions, not an institution with sacred mysteries.



#73
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@Mopac
There is no historical Church that's where we keep banging heads lol, the church are the true believers it has nothing to do with any organized groups or religions. I don't teach a different Jesus because the Jesus I teach is the Gospel. Nothing added nothing taken away, the pure Gospel. 
#74
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@EtrnlVw
The Orthodox Church teaches The Eternal Way.


You do not know the Jesus I know.
#75
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@Mopac
The Orthodox Church teaches The Eternal Way.

No other way I had in mind, but thanks though. 

#76
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@Mopac
You already believe in our God, as you professed to believe the Ultimate Reality exists.
I believe that I exist, and that I experience some form of reality. 

The things is: How do I know that the God of the Bible is this Ultimate Reality (which includes my reality)?

#77
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@EtrnlVw
Ok, that's a bit to digest lol. I'll respond when I can wrap my head around that.
#78
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@PressF4Respect
lol
#79
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@PressF4Respect
Before I lose you, I guess I was wondering if you had an opinion of the Gospels and the teachings of Jesus aside from any religious dogma. Have you ever read any of it?
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Who wrote the gospels and what knowledge did they have of the stories they purport to have occurred?
#81
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@EtrnlVw
Before I lose you, I guess I was wondering if you had an opinion of the Gospels and the teachings of Jesus aside from any religious dogma. Have you ever read any of it?
I know them, but I haven't read them in detail.

#82
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@PressF4Respect
So you don't really have an educated or studied opinion on Jesus of the Gospels? 
#83
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Who wrote the gospels and what knowledge did they have of the stories they purport to have occurred?

#84
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@EtrnlVw
So you don't really have an educated or studied opinion on Jesus of the Gospels? 
If I did some research on the internet, or if I sat down and analyzed some passages, would I count as "educated" or "studied"?

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@PressF4Respect
When you say, "the God of the bible" you are looking at the wrong thing. Instead you should say, "The God of The Church".


The Church is the body of Christ, and The Way is Universal, as Christ The Truth has dominion over all. The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God, and this is the witness of the prophets.

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@Mopac
The bible is where your god was invented.
#87
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@disgusted
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.

The Eternal Way.

The Spirit of Truth.

These are not the inventions of men, but The One True God who has always been, always is, and will forever be. It is the God that is with us. 

The God I adore is The Uncreated, whom you can not discern from the created.

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@Mopac
Your god was invented by primitive, ignorant superstitious savages a couple of thousand years ago, there can be no doubt about that.
You can call it anything you like, it doesn't alter the truth about it's non existence. It's a figment of human imagination and fear.
#89
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@EtrnlVw
there isn't going to be some scientist that demonstrates God exists for you that is silly because the nature of the Creator eludes our immediate physical sense perceptions and so the scientific method is not for that purpose.

That's extremely convenient for you  then , eh.. But then it  does leave the question of how do you know that a god or gods exist if "the nature of the Creator eludes our immediate physical sense perceptions"? 

And did  those  biblical characters have  special  "sense perceptions"  that we today no longer posses?
#90
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@Mopac
When you say, "the God of the bible" you are looking at the wrong thing. Instead you should say, "The God of The Church".


The Church is the body of Christ, and The Way is Universal, as Christ The Truth has dominion over all. The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God, and this is the witness of the prophets.
How do I know that the God of the Church (Christ) is the Ultimate Reality (which includes my reality)?