Is god real?

Author: Alec

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#31
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@Alec
Maybe the best way to approach the question is to start not from a video debunking anything, but to ask yourself if any particular god were real, what would we expect that god's creation to be like? For example, if you were a god and were only going to create life on one planet, would you bother making a universe that is literally too big to be imagined? Why would you or wouldn't you? 
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@Mopac
No, I would say that our experience of reality is our relationship with God. The reality we experience is a type and shadow of reality as it truly is. 

God is The Ultimate Reality. Our experience is a reality, but it is not ultimately real. All realities derive their existence from The Ultimate Reality, which is what gives existence to all things.
So you define God as the reality of realities, aka its defined as being real. Correct?
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If you flip on religion a lot, perhaps considering to be Agnostic
Right now as of the time of this comment, I am.



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@ludofl3x
 For example, if you were a god and were only going to create life on one planet, would you bother making a universe that is literally too big to be imagined? 

What if God created life on other planets?  That is probably the case.
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@Mopac
And even if we accept this "Ultimate Reality", how do we know that it is the god of the bible?

An imam could just as easily come in here and say:
"Yes, there is an ultimate reality, and it is Allah."

How would you respond to the imam?
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@Mopac
I believe the natural inclination of the human is to believe there is Ultimate Reality. God is written on the hesrts of all.
The problem is, you've essentially defined God as reality itself. 
What that means is that if you experience reality, then you believe in God. 
There's literally no way to argue against that (other than the fact that it begs the question, as stated earlier).

You win... I guess?

The problem is, how is this "reality" associated with the attributes that are assigned to the being that Christians and Jews call God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, etc.)?
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Christians in the middle east use the word "Allah" for God. Certainly, we both believe The Ultimate Reality is God. Then I would want to have a respectful  conversation that hopefully shows some common ground without neglecting the differences. I would of course explain why I do not accept Mohammed as a prophet.



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There is no problem. There is no argument that stands against God. Atheism towards God(rather than gods) is fundamentally a position of ignorance.
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The problem is, how is this "reality" associated with the attributes that are assigned to the being that Christians and Jews call God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, etc.)?


It is really simple. 

God's omniscience is established by the fact that The Ultimate Reality would by necessity hold every bit of information that exists. We can say both past and present because time is contingent on The Ultimate Reality, which is pre-eternal, and thus, outside time. The beginning and end of things are just as visible to God as the present. From God's vantage point, you can say that the present is all of time presented in its entirety.

God's omnipotence is established by the fact that everything that moves is doing so by the power that God granted it. If something moves, it does so by the power of God. 

God's omnibenevolence is established through the understanding that Truth is the highest good, and being that God is Truth in the truest sense of the word, God is what defines good. Every action of God is innately good.

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@Mopac
Christians in the middle east use the word "Allah" for God. Certainly, we both believe The Ultimate Reality is God. Then I would want to have a respectful  conversation that hopefully shows some common ground without neglecting the differences. I would of course explain why I do not accept Mohammed as a prophet.
What if someone else came in and said Brahma was the Ultimate Reality?

There is no problem. There is no argument that stands against God. Atheism towards God(rather than gods) is fundamentally a position of ignorance.
There is a problem. The conclusion you're trying to reach is that God is real. If you do this by defining God as "The Ultimate Reality", you're essentially defining God to exist. Like with Anselm's "Maximally Great Being", this boils down to:
P1: God exists.
C1: Therefore, God exists.
This logic begs the question, and is therefore entirely circular.

God's omniscience is established by the fact that The Ultimate Reality would by necessity hold every bit of information that exists. We can say both past and present because time is contingent on The Ultimate Reality, which is pre-eternal, and thus, outside time. The beginning and end of things are just as visible to God as the present. From God's vantage point, you can say that the present is all of time presented in its entirety.
Actions are temporal. The act of God creating something (like space and time) is an action. If time didn't exist, then actions wouldn't be able to happen. 

Just like how videos are a series of frames, you can think of reality as a series of "snapshots" at each instant. Actions would be the changes made between one instant of time (the "before" state) and the next (the "after" state). If you didn't have time, you would literally have a single snapshot, and nothing would happen. If there is change in anything, then there is time.

The creation of the universe is certainly an action. There is definitely a change between the "before" state and the "after". Before, no universe. After, universe. Therefore, there would be time before the universe was created. Otherwise, the universe would never have been created, as it would have stayed in that "before" state (with no universe).

God's omnipotence is established by the fact that everything that moves is doing so by the power that God granted it. If something moves, it does so by the power of God. 
Does God move? If so, then what granted him the power to do so?

God's omnibenevolence is established through the understanding that Truth is the highest good, and being that God is Truth in the truest sense of the word, God is what defines good. Every action of God is innately good.
If God is the Ultimate Reality, and if all of the evils are included within this Ultimate Reality, then God can't be omnibenevolent. 
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God either exists or doesn't exist FULL STOP 



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What if someone else came in and said Brahma was the Ultimate Reality?

I would probably correct them and say that "Brahman" would be more accurate.


There is a problem. The conclusion you're trying to reach is that God is real. If you do this by defining God as "The Ultimate Reality", you're essentially defining God to exist. Like with Anselm's "Maximally Great Being", this boils down to:
P1: God exists.
C1: Therefore, God exists.
This logic begs the question, and is therefore entirely circular.
Our faith is not one that was brought about through reason, but revelation. We have understood God the same way for thousands of years. There is no problem, because God exists. That is the God we believe, and so we can without doubt say, "Only a fool in their heart says there is no God.".

There is no debate about the existence of God.



Actions are temporal. The act of God creating something (like space and time) is an action. If time didn't exist, then actions wouldn't be able to happen. 
This is true. I however, did not say that there is no time. God acts within time, obviously, but at the. same time God exists outside of time. That is why we say we are not pantheists, but panentheists. 


The creation of the universe is certainly an action. There is definitely a change between the "before" state and the "after". Before, no universe. After, universe. Therefore, there would be time before the universe was created. Otherwise, the universe would never have been created, as it would have stayed in that "before" state (with no universe).
The creation itself marks the beginning of time. That is why we say God is "pre-eternal". In a temporal sense, there isn't anything before time. Yet, God's existence preceeds time, and time itself is contingent on God. 


Does God move? If so, then what granted him the power to do so?

God's interaction with the universe is through His Word and Breath, or his Son and Holy Spirit. The Trinity itself has a great deal to do with God's relationship to creation. God acts in creation because God through the incarnation took the form of creation. The incarnation effectively unites the two very different natures of divinity and creation into the single hypostasis of The Son. All power originates with God.


If God is the Ultimate Reality, and if all of the evils are included within this Ultimate Reality, then God can't be omnibenevolent
Mankind was made in the image of God. Part of what this means is that we have free will. More specifically, the ability to misuse the divine energy that God graces with us. If God so willed, He could have made us automatons. Instead, God has shared part of His divine nature with us.

What is evil? It is nothing. On the last day, when the light of Truth fills all of creation, and all will be revealed, illusion will cease to be, and evil right along with it. Everything will be revealed as is. That is why we say that the fires of hell and the light of heaven are the same thing. To those who identify with what defiles them, it will be hell as they are shown who the really are. To those who abide in The Eternal Way, The Light of Truth will be their heaven.

Some claim that hell is seperation of God. It is more accurate to say that hell is rejection of God. Whether one rejects God or not, there is no escaping God, who is everywhere present and fills all things. It is even written, "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."


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@Deb-8-a-bull
God either exists or doesn't exist FULL STOP




If God doesn't exist, you aren't talking about God. God must exist in order to be God.

The name that God gives to Moses even establishes this. It is even more clear in the septuigant, which when translated into English tends to get rendered "The Eternally Existing One"

I AM THAT I AM. What does that mean? The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is the very name God gave to Moses.


#44
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@Mopac
Is Jesus God?

Does this ultimate reality state anything about this. 
Is Jesus the ultimate reality?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Jesus Christ is how creation has been reconciled to divinity. 

Is Jesus God? Certainly, along with the unoriginate Father and Life giving Holy Spirit. These 3 are in fact 1 God. 1 God revealed to us in 3 hypostases.




#46
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@Alec
Heaven seems much more important than a life on Earth if heaven exists.  The thing is, does it exist?  I honestly am not sure, but am open to change my mind.

We believe in the day of resurrection, the last day.

At the fulfillment of all things, the light of God shines through all of creation. Everything that ever existed is brought back, and the light of Truth fills all of it. When this happens, all illusion will be expelled, everything hidden shall be revealed, and everything will be known just as it is truly known. 

When this happens, those who abide in The Way will have peace, because in doing so they lived as icons of The Truth, and their sins have been washed away by The Life giving Holy Spirit. Through cooperation with God's divine energy, they have accepted God's salvation, partaken of the divine nature, and now have found paradise.

Those who have deviated from The Way because they never received a love for The Truth will be tormented by their delusions, having identified not with the image of God that they were made in, but the filth that obscures that image. When The Divine Light of Truth touches such people, they will face the burning agony of eternal death.

The same Divine Light that is paradise to the saints is agonizing hell to those who put their faith in lying vanities.


Salvation is through Jesus Christ, who is The Eternal Way, God with us. His apostolic church preserves the gospel of salvation, and that church is The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. 


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@Alec
Is god real?

Depending on what you believe of course, but there are many civilizations the claim that their gods / lords came down from the sky and were  real  living beings.

Personally  I cannot see any reason to disbelieve what they wrote about these beings. They had no reason to make it up as far as I am concerned.

In fact if these beings never existed, it would have been better not to have invented them at all for  a leader  claiming to be the highest authority in the land. Why invent something that challenges your own authority? Just my opinion.

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@Mopac
So people should be punished for being lied to and believing a wrong " god " ?

Do you think God is straightforward enough for this.?
You know what i mean. 
Is it obvious to alll that your God and Church is the one true correct one?

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@Mopac
Oh and this day of reserrction. 
Do you think this will occur in your lifetime.

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@Deb-8-a-bull
God is written on the hearts of all men.


What that means is, God can be independently discovered and adored independent of any instruction.


Make no mistake, proper guidance will save you from a great deal of dead ends, delusion, and your growth will be a lot quicker and focused.

Besides that, the deadliest and most difficult sin to overcome is pride. Seeking proper guidance along with submitting to it is a weapon against pride, though not exclusively. People can be proud even under the guidance of a wise and humble elder!


It is my witness that The Orthodox Church presents true and enlightened Christianity.



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@Mopac
Yeah but.
No but.

I can't argue with that post. 
It doesn't answer my questions, 
But.

Well played.





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It is a common misconception that The Church condemns everyone who isn't in the church.


Actually, our answer is much saner than that. It isn't our place to judge, God knows their heart.
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@Mopac
What if someone else came in and said Brahma was the Ultimate Reality?
I would probably correct them and say that "Brahman" would be more accurate.
My point is that there are many different religions, and many different deities that people believe are "the Ultimate Reality". In light of all this, how do you know that Christianity (let alone Orthodox Christianity) is the correct religion, and that the God of the Bible is "the Ultimate Reality"?

Our faith is not one that was brought about through reason, but revelation.
Reason is the way we make sense of things. Without reason, all you would have is blind faith and dogma.

We have understood God the same way for thousands of years.
Just because many people believed in something for many years doesn't make it factual. For example, people believed for thousands of years that the Sun orbited around the Earth, until Copernicus came along. 

There is no problem, because God exists.
"Does God exist?" is the very question we're trying to address. We don't know the answer to this yet.

That is the God we believe, and so we can without doubt say, "Only a fool in their heart says there is no God.".
I think with my brain, not my heart.

There is no debate about the existence of God.
There is. Namely, this one.

This is true. I however, did not say that there is no time. God acts within time, obviously, but at the. same time God exists outside of time. That is why we say we are not pantheists, but panentheists. 

The creation itself marks the beginning of time. That is why we say God is "pre-eternal". In a temporal sense, there isn't anything before time. Yet, God's existence preceeds time, and time itself is contingent on God. 
The problem is, I demonstrated in my previous post that there was time before the creation (otherwise there would be no universe).

God's interaction with the universe is through His Word and Breath, or his Son and Holy Spirit. The Trinity itself has a great deal to do with God's relationship to creation. God acts in creation because God through the incarnation took the form of creation. The incarnation effectively unites the two very different natures of divinity and creation into the single hypostasis of The Son. All power originates with God.
This is basically Aquinas' Unmoved Mover. The problem with that is that one of its premises states that all things that move require a mover. Since God moves, God would require a mover, according to the premise. There are three cases that stem out of this. Either:
  • It leads to infinite regress,
  • It contradicts its own premise, or
  • It commits special pleading
Mankind was made in the image of God. Part of what this means is that we have free will. More specifically, the ability to misuse the divine energy that God graces with us. If God so willed, He could have made us automatons. Instead, God has shared part of His divine nature with us.
If God is omniscient, then it is impossible to have free will, since He already knows what you are going to do.

What is evil? It is nothing. On the last day, when the light of Truth fills all of creation, and all will be revealed, illusion will cease to be, and evil right along with it. Everything will be revealed as is. That is why we say that the fires of hell and the light of heaven are the same thing. To those who identify with what defiles them, it will be hell as they are shown who the really are. To those who abide in The Eternal Way, The Light of Truth will be their heaven.

Some claim that hell is seperation of God. It is more accurate to say that hell is rejection of God. Whether one rejects God or not, there is no escaping God, who is everywhere present and fills all things. It is even written, "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."
Firstly, this assumes that there is a heaven and hell. 

Secondly, how would, for example, babies being born with birth defects, of no fault of their own, be an illusion?
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It is really a lot more simple than all that.

What we acknowledge as God is The Ultimate Reality. 

Our religion is to be living icons of The Truth.

Everything really follows naturally from this. 

It is easy to get confused in the details if you don't take it all in its entirety.


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@Mopac
It is really a lot more simple than all that.

What we acknowledge as God is The Ultimate Reality. 

Our religion is to be living icons of The Truth.

Everything really follows naturally from this. 
In a discussion/debate about God's existence (especially in a thread titled "Is God real?"), you cannot start with the assumption that God exists, as that is the exact thing we are trying to prove/disprove. 

If someone was able to prove God's existence in a logically sound way, then we can conclude that God exists.
If someone was able to disprove God's existence in a logically sound way, then we can conclude that God does not exist.
If no person can do either, then we cannot conclude anything.
As far as I am aware of, no one has been able to do either.
Therefore, we cannot conclude anything.
That position is known as agnosticism.

It is easy to get confused in the details if you don't take it all in its entirety.
The details are where it counts. If there is a problem in the details of the logic, then like a house of cards with a misplaced card, the entire thing will collapse. 

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It is only a debate if you are talking about something other than my God when you are talking about God. In that instance, I would tell you that I don't believe your god either.

If you accept that God is what God is, there is no debate.






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@Mopac
It is only a debate if you are talking about something other than my God when you are talking about God.
You've defined God as The Ultimate Reality, meaning that it is, by definition, real. Is this not your God?

In that instance, I would tell you that I don't believe your god either.
I don't personally believe in any gods. 

If you accept that God is what God is, there is no debate.
I don't accept your logic for why God exists. Why? Because it's completely circular.
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In the Septuigant l, the name God gives to Moses is literally "The Eternally Existing One"

If God doesn't exist, the most fundamental aspect of what makes God is not present. Namely that God exists. It can only be a god, or straw man god.


You are confused because you are using logic in an irrational way.


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@Mopac
In the Septuigant l, the name God gives to Moses is literally "The Eternally Existing One"
What makes the Septuigant (or the bible as a whole) sound?

If God doesn't exist, the most fundamental aspect of what makes God is not present. Namely that God exists. It can only be a god, or straw man god.
The conclusion of your argument (that God exists) is inside the definition, which is itself inside one of the premises. Thus, it is circular.

You are confused because you are using logic in an irrational way.
How so?

#60
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What makes the Septuigant (or the bible as a whole) sound?


I think that question kind of misses the point of what the bible is and what it is used for. How do we use the bible? We use the bible to teach The Way. 

The bible is not our God. The bible is a witness to our God.


The conclusion of your argument (that God exists) is inside the definition, which is itself inside one of the premises. Thus, it is circular.
I am not arguing that God exists. I am asserting that God exists. I am also asserting that if you are in doubt about whether God exists or not, it is because you are superstitious. It is nonsensical to question the existence of God. There is no legitimate debate.


You are confused because you are using logic in an irrational way.
How so?
You are attempting to tie a logical fallacy to my reasoning when I have not made any reasoning. The God I presented obviously exists, and since you have no argument against this God you want to argue about something else and call it God.

This is the only argument that atheists have. It is also strangely consistent too, because to deny my God is to deny The Truth. If you do not believe in Truth, it stands to reason that you are arguing from an arbitrary position.