Animals and the Afterlife

Author: ludofl3x

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#241
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@Fruit_Inspector

Using the Bible’s chronologies and historical data, the age of the earth is calculated to be around 6,000 years; 2,000 years from Adam to Abraham, 2,000 years from Abraham to Christ, and 2,000 years from Christ to today.   Do you agree?
#242
secularmerlin
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@Fruit_Inspector
How do you know that what I said is speculation?
That's what you call making up a possible explanation in the absence of adequate evidence for any particular theory. Speculation isn't even a problem on its own. It is fun and occasionally useful to imagine hypothetical scenarios. It is a problem however if you mistake speculation for evidence of some proposition. Absent evidence other than the claim itself and better than anecdotal we cannot claim gnosis on the subject.
#243
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@ludofl3x
First, I believe all living things on Earth, and elsewhere, have souls, or spirits, and that when the physical body dies, the spirit lives on.

Second, I believe all living things will resurrect, that is, their spirit, and a new, perfect, immortal physical body in the likeness of the original mortal body will reunite to live eternally as a physical, perfect entity, and that the new, resurrected being has the likeness of their mortal bodies in the primer of that life, however long or brief mortal life was for that individual. For us humans, about 30 years of age. For a dog, about 4 [30 ÷ 7] I suppose.

Third, I believe that all living things, with the exception of humans, live perfect lives, fulfilling the full measure of their creation, and, therefore, will inherit heaven whether we do, or not. We are unique in that regard; we humans have the capacity to sin, to willfully disobey. All other lifeforms have no understanding of good and evil.
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#244
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@949havoc
What backs up your personal beliefs? 


#245
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@ludofl3x
Personal study, reflection, and subsequent revelation via prayer.
#246
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@ludofl3x
First off, they don't have souls, as far as the bible seems to be concerned. Second of all, they don't know Jesus, and that's the only way into heaven. WHat do you think, and why do you think it?

From what I understand of The Bible knowing Jesus is only a requirement for salvation, salvation is only required for humans because Adam fucked up. So that second concern shouldn't be a problem in Christianity.
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#247
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@949havoc
Can any of it be demonstrated conclusively?

From what I understand of The Bible knowing Jesus is only a requirement for salvation, salvation is only required for humans because Adam fucked up. So that second concern shouldn't be a problem in Christianity.
So what's Jesus saving, then? Souls, right? So if animals have souls, and they don't require Jesus because they didn't F up in the garden, then all animals are in heaven. That would leave the 'do anima's have souls' as the question. Catholic dogma taught they didn't have souls. 
#248
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@ludofl3x
That would leave the 'do anima's have souls' as the question.

I don't remember The Bible saying anything about animal souls so I can't answer that one for Christianity. Hinduism gives them a chance to be reincarnated as a human if they served their purpose on Earth properly.

#249
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Hinduism gives them a chance to be reincarnated as a human if they served their purpose on Earth properly.

How condescending of them... meaning only those who take this stance of course hindu worshippers presumably being a diverse lot like any religious group.
#250
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@secularmerlin
Let me clarify that my current dispute is specifically with your claim that it is epistemologically impossible for anyone to know why there is something rather than nothing. So let me make my point a different way to stay on topic:

Is it possible that a metaphysical being could exist?

If this metaphysical being created the physical universe, is it possible this being could communicate that fact to us so we could know why there is something rather than nothing?
#251
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@Fruit_Inspector
Is it possible that a metaphysical being could exist?

If this metaphysical being created the physical universe, is it possible this being could communicate that fact to us so we could know why there is something rather than nothing?
What do you mean metaphysical? What is that? I am only aware of physical beings and forces. What is the practical quantifiable difference between physical and metaphysical?
#252
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@secularmerlin
What do you mean metaphysical?
Specifically, a being that does not consist of physical material.
#253
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@Fruit_Inspector
Specifically, a being that does not consist of physical material.
So... imaginary?
#254
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@secularmerlin
Hinduism also gives humans the chance to be born into a higher position... again assuming that human served their purpose properly in life. It was kinda the central theme of the whole gig, similar to how the heaven vs hell idea is the central theme of Christianity.
#255
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My what horrible after lives both those options sound like. I'll take unaware nothing any day over hell or worse heaven and I definitely don't want to experience life on an endless loop.

#256
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@secularmerlin
I assume then that you believe it is impossible that an immaterial being can exist?
#257
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@Fruit_Inspector
I assume then that you believe it is impossible for an immaterial being can exist?
Well that depends very much on what you mean by
immaterial
What is the functional quantifiable difference between immaterial and nonexistent?
#258
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@secularmerlin
life on an endless loop.
Once you acquire enough good karma (obedience points) you can eventually end the cycle. That's actually the goal, you have to be born into gradually higher positions by fulfilling your purpose each time then once you reach the top you just have to live one more perfect life and you win.
#259
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win
Win? Win what? The Christian afterlife mythology is pretty terrible but at least I know who are meant to be taken for the winners and who the losers.
#260
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Same with Valhalla. Wouldn't want to end up there but at least it is clear what the mythology is suggesting happens to you.

#261
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@secularmerlin
What is the functional quantifiable difference between immaterial and nonexistent?
I'm referring to a being that does not consist of anything physical. Such a being is often referred to as spiritual rather than physical.

The difference is an immaterial being exists, but it does not consist of any matter or energy. A non-existent being does not exist.

Is it possible for a being that is not made up of any physical material to exist?
#262
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@Fruit_Inspector
Is it possible for a being that is not made up of any physical material to exist?
What is it made up of then? I need some alternative to physical before I can consider this seriously. 

This is begging the question and argument from ignorance. I can't prove a lot of things don't exist. If I believed everything I cannot specifically disprove then I would need to believe many things for which I have no evidence many of them logically incompatible. As an example I cannot specifically disprove that exclusively southern baptists and no one else are going to heaven and also cannot specifically disprove that exclusively Catholics are going to heaven and no one else but the two beliefs logically preclude one another. It is therefore more logically sound to not believe anything that you cannot specifically prove rather than to believe in things simply because you cannot specifically disprove them. Ergo it is more logically sound to not believe in heaven at all until it can be specifically proved.

We must always be mindful of our epistemological limitations. 
#263
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@secularmerlin
Win? Win what?

The perks seem nice but the whole "it not being a real thing" is kinda a major downside in my book. Not everyone cares about that though so there still is somewhat of a customer base for the product.
#264
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What other kind of thing is there? What is not real if not imaginary?
#265
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@secularmerlin
Yeah, everything I can think of off the top of my head is either real or imaginary.
#266
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If I ever get a coherent description of a third option I'll let you know.
#267
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@secularmerlin
Let me simplify the question since you seem to be misunderstanding.

Can something exist that is not made up of physical material?

I'm not making a claim of what that thing would consist of, or even that such a thing does exist. I'm simply asking if it's possible.

Another way to ask it might be, can something only exist if it is made up of physical material?

Im asking what you believe. It should either be yes, no, or I don't know.
#268
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@Fruit_Inspector
I do not accept that anything non physical exists and am not even sure what non physical means unless it is a synonym nor nonexistent. That's as close to a simple yes or no I can give such an incoherent idea.
#269
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@Fruit_Inspector
Perhaps it would help if you had a real world example of a nonphysical thing. Something whose properties can be examined and identified so that we can recognize another similar object and 0lace them in the same category. 
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#270
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@secularmerlin
Would you say brainwaves "exist"? Or would those qualify as sort of 'effects' of a physical cause (electrochemical brain activity we have figured out how to measure and display)? The other example might be Batman or Indiana Jones: they exist in our minds as pop culture icons, but they do NOT exist in the 'real' world.