Logging off. I'll be back on again this evening.
Pokemon Mafia DP 3
Posts
Total:
317
-->
@Speedrace
What if Wylted is scum...and Club fake poisoned him to make it otherwise? Then they both look like town after Club claims poison doctor!
This would mean that Club and Wylted are both scum. This would require Club to be a fake poisoner and for Wylted to be on the same scum team as Club. I don't think this is likely due to balance considerations. I've just gone through the DP and put together a claims list.
Disc - Shuckle, 1x BP*
Mhar - Eevee, Universal Back-up
Club - Chansey, Poison Doctor
Grey - Squirtle, Vanilla*
Wylted - Ponyta, Vanilla
Speed - Tropius, Vanilla
Water - Growlithe, Vanilla
Bsh1 - Soft claim
Oro - No claim
Supa - No claim
Pie - No claim
Phione - No claim
Now, factoring all this information in, I don't see how there couldn't be an actual poison doctor. Why? Because Warren described a "poisoner who can also fake poison," not a poisoner who can only fake poison. This suggests, to my reading, that any poisoner must be able to actually poison if they chose. Since we know that there must be a poisoner of some type in the game, we know that the poisoner could/can actually poison. The existence of a poisoner would fit nicely with the existence of a poison doctor. Plus, I doubt that a 1x BP would be the only protective role in this game, esp. if Mhar's idea of NK + poisoning is also true. So, balance considerations here suggest further that Club is not lying.
-->
@Mharman
Why does the fact that "a poisoner who can fake poison exists" entail that "Wylted is the poisoner who can fake poison." There's a logical leap here that's missing for me. What if Wylted was actually poisoned or there is some kind of red herring situation going on? Can you spell out for me how you get from your premise to your conclusion?warren confirmed we either have two poisoners, or a poisoner that can fake poison. I think it's the latter, because we've had the longstanding theory that poisoner was scum; if we had a town poisoner, he would've stepped forward and debunked that theory.Which means we have a poisoner who could fake poisoning... and that would be Wylted.
-->
@Speedrace
Ok, so I asked Warren if, hypothetically, if he would feel the need to balance a fake poisoner with a poison doctor, or not to since the doctor wouldn't really do anything... he said, and I quote, "that's not an answer I'm willing to give." You can ask him yourself to confirm. Notice that he didn't even try to be vague, he straight up didn't answer. That's because saying he didn't feel the need to put the poison doctor would instantly out Club as Mafia!
This logic only holds if we conflate "fake poisoner" with "poisoner who can also fake poison". These aren't the same. The latter, which is what warren talked about in his post, could still actually poison someone, unless I am misreading that. Thus, a poison doctor would still make sense, because their role might still be put to actual use. Am I right on this, because the more I think about it, the more I think I am...? I'd be interested to get your take.
-->
@Mharman
This was Mhar's original role claim:
Universal Backup. I inherit the role of the first townie PR to die.
This is his latest explication on his role.
I only inherit active roles.
These are not the same claims. Power roles (PR) can be active (e.g. a cop) or passive (e.g. a dreamer). It is possible, perhaps, that Mhar was confused about the mechanics of his role. But his initial claim about power roles seems pretty specific, too specific to permit this kind of ambiguity. In other words, if warren had really said something along the lines of the first iteration of Mhar's claim, then I don't see how the second iteration could be true.
Mhar, can you paraphrase your role PM again for us? Thanks.
-->
@bsh1
I see what you're saying, you're right that it would be risky to fake claim poison doctor, so Club is town. I think that we need to evaluate Wylted more, especially if fake poisoners can poison themselves
-->
@Speedrace
Okay, so what's your take on Wylted?
-->
@bsh1
I apologize, I'm busy with school stuff and I'm gone all day tomorrow for school, if I have time before bed I'll give you a breakdown if possible
NP1, the only night when there was no NK. Instead there was a poisoning.This means that scum can use their NK and their poison at the same night.
Well, unless I am grossly mistaken, we have only had 2 NPs. In NP1, there was no NK and there was a poisoning. In NP2, there was an NK and there was no poisoning. We don't know, as I already explained, whether Disc's BP shot was used. Notice that Club claimed even-day PD; perhaps the even/odd cycle is important. Yet, you seem incredibly confident of your interpretation of events. It almost reads like you have inside information that you're trying to sell as a big revelation in order to get towncred. That would fit with you acting like you don't understand the active/passive distinction and with the push on Wylted, which I just am not getting when I really think about it.
-->
@Speedrace
Vote Pie so that we can get a claim out of him. Since he's in our scumpile, getting info out of him perhaps matters more than getting it out of Oro.
VTL Pie for character claim and reads.
-->
@ILikePie5
You need to get active. Character claim please, and give reads.
I'll be back online in a bit.
VTL Pie
-->
@bsh1
My theory is this. Wylted actually poisoned himself guessing there was a poison doctor, and a townie Club was none the wiser and saved him.
-->
@bsh1
Active role, as in unused. If Disc used his BP, than he would’ve reverted back to vanilla, which would explain why I didn’t inherit his role. Because he already used it.
VTL Pie
-->
@Speedrace
I'm a senior boi :D
Aye senior gang
-->
@bsh1
I think there are different ways to tunnel. A townie tunnels because they genuinely believe a player is scum. You tunneled despite admitting that you didn't care if Club was town or not.
Dude ain’t an asset. And now with Warren bringing up the fact that a “fake poisoner” is possible it makes me suspect him even more. Think about it why would there be a Poison Doctor if there’s a “”fake poisoner.” The only option is if he’s actually PD and scum can get 2 kills which is hella overprowered. It has t be the former meaning Club has to be lying.
-->
@bsh1
Also, Pie should claim, and I am willing to pressure him if he doesn't.
Sure, I’m Voltorb. I’m not gonna role claim since it would be a significant advantage to mafia.
-->
@Mharman
He told that I did not because I only inherit active roles.This means that Disc's bulletproof is no longer active, which means he used it.
I think mafia pulled the trigger on Disc DP1 and that’s why there was no NK. However I don’t think there’s a mafia poisoner, only a fake poisoner. It would just be too OP. Plus I’m pretty sure active roles (if you’re UB) means like having the ability to select someone like a cop or a doctor. BP is passive.
-->
@Mharman
at the same time, warren confirmed we either have two poisoners, or a poisoner that can fake poison. I think it's the latter, because we've had the longstanding theory that poisoner was scum; if we had a town poisoner, he would've stepped forward and debunked that theory.
If you think this then Club has to be scum. There’s no point to having a PD if the fake poisoner can’t kill lol.
-->
@Speedrace
BUT ALSO, Club said that he was a day poison bdoctor BEFORE Warren told bsh anything about day doctors, and that fact isn't exactly readily available to three public. So how would he know that a day poison doctor could even exist?I think this confirms Club as town
This makes no sense to me. Here are the options
1.) Mafia has a real poisoner that can kill along with an NK (OP af - unlikely)
2.) Mafia has fake poisoner meaning a PD would not be needed since the target would not die in the first place (Probably likely)
-->
@Mharman
I think it's more likely that Wylted knew the town poison doc would save him. I think Club is still town- fake claiming a poison doctor in this game would be way too risky for scum.
You just said that you think a fake poisoner is more likely in the game.
-->
@ILikePie5
Obviously you haven't been paying attention. See post 152.However I don’t think there’s a mafia poisoner, only a fake poisoner.
I’m not gonna role claim since it would be a significant advantage to mafia.
And that is?
If you think this then Club has to be scum.
Still tunneling.
Sure, I’m Voltorb.
Reads?
-->
@bsh1
Because Warren described a "poisoner who can also fake poison," not a poisoner who can only fake poison. This suggests, to my reading, that any poisoner must be able to actually poison if they chose. Since we know that there must be a poisoner of some type in the game, we know that the poisoner could/can actually poison.
This is what Warren said for those of you lazy to click: “A poison doctor would act in the day if there are two poisoners or if there is one poisoner who can also fake poison. A poison doctor would act in the night if there is only one poisoner without a fake-poison ability.”
All this says is that if any killing role Poisoner exist, a Poison Doctor would exist. This makes sense since a saving role would be needed for a killing role.
It doesn’t rule out there only a poisoner who can fake poison.
That’s the way I read it - you know how semantics work Bsh lol from my game.
-->
@Speedrace
I apologize, I'm busy with school stuff and I'm gone all day tomorrow for school, if I have time before bed I'll give you a breakdown if possible
No worries dude, I was gone all of today for the same reason. School next Monday smh
-->
@ILikePie5
All this says is that if any killing role Poisoner exist, a Poison Doctor would exist. This makes sense since a saving role would be needed for a killing role.
In that case, there is no poison doctor and only a fake poisoner. I doubt warren would include a fake-only poisoner, because it would allow mafia to essentially role-confirm a role which did not exist. Such a situation would be highly convoluted. It seems more likely to me that there is a poison doctor, precisely because warren doesn't strike me as the kind of mod to play those kinds of games.
-->
@ILikePie5
I want your reads.
So, the DP is winding down...we can't have more than 24 hours left. What do we want to do about the lynch?
-->
@Speedrace
Yo, I know you're busy, but do you have like 5 minutes to tell me what you're thinking for the lynch this DP?