how many atheists don't think humans are just robots?

Author: n8nrgmi

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RoderickSpode
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Are you claiming that anything other than complete unconcious existence after death means "magical afterlife"? If it's something that science doesn't (at the moment) touch a concious afterlife, it would have to be magic?
It's not unconscious
existence. It's not existing anymore. Are you proposing that there IS a magical afterlife? Cool, what evidence can I examine to determine it's definitely there, as you have? Yeah, I'm calling it magic. 
I made no such suggestion. The question is in your ball park, not mine.

Are you saying, that anything other than not existing after death would mean "magical afterlife"?

Again. The question is aimed entirely at you. Entirely!




Rather, it's impossibly possible. I don't rule out the possibility of producing sentient life, but in my opinion the creator has rendered it impossible.
We're sort of back where we started: how did you arrive at this opinion? Because it sounds like nonsense. 
Yes, I think the creator looks out for us. Artificial life is produced for our personal service. We don't create AI for any other reason. We produce off spring for love, relationship, etc., knowing that the offspring will have their own free will. We create AI, again, for personal service. Do you think it  would be wise to manufacture AI to have independent free will?

I think it would be really stupid (particularly if it was to prove we are equal with God). I think many scientists understand this as well, and not thinking much beyond AI serving mankind. I think the movies and TV shows (like the one you're talking about) is strictly fantasy. But, often they have hints of truth to them. There's an episode, I think from the original Twilight Zone where an independent minded robot is on trial in a court room. The robot shocks everyone when it loses it's temper, and karate chops a table in half. The implication here is that we could be so stupid with our technological abilties, that we might create a life force that could demolish us. We could wipe out mankind with our inventions. Just like the bomb.

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@ludofl3x
That isn't actually the question of the book Frankenstein's Monster. The question in that book is if you did it, what do you owe to it? For example, if you
could create sentient life, would it be moral to create it with the full knowledge that you were going to torture it for a really long time just for your own amusement? Would you owe it free will, the ability to love? What would it owe you, would it be moral to keep it as a slave? Would it have to do as you bid under fear of bodily punishment? 
Oh great. Now I'm going to get a literary lesson on Mary Shelley.

First off, one of the major themes of the story is absolutely most definitely about the moral question behind playing God.
However I don't know what version of Frankenstein you're thinking of. Maybe the Japanese version where he grows to be a
giant, and ends up fighting a giant gorilla?
 
The rest of it I don't want to assume have nothing to do with the story, but feel free to expound by all means. I don't remember any pondering on Doc Frank's part as to whether or not he should give the creature full knowledge, free will (which I think was already assumed as I don't think Doc Frank wanted a slave). Or giving it the ability to love (I think just getting it'sheart to beat was enough).





What's really weird Ludo is your obvious reference to the Bible. What does eternal punishment have to do with the novel? Except for the fact that it couldn't actually die as the story goes.


When it comes to questions of the afterlife, I think the most atheistic of atheists understand that this is much deeper than creating healthy energy drinks. It would present a challenge to deityship, therefore has appeal as the idea tantalizes us with proving the non-existence of an ultimate creator of divine nature.
??????? This is word salad. I'm glad to address if you can clarify what you're trying to get at. What's it have to do with sentience? 

This particular comment had nothing really to do with sentience.
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@3RU7AL
Is it immoral to intentionally bring a child into a cruel and hostile world?
That's a good question. What do you think?
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@3RU7AL
In the late 1950s, a Russian geneticist called Dmitry K. Belyaev attempted to create a tame fox population.

If the cubs continued to show aggressive or evasive responses, even after significant human contact, they were discarded from the population – meaning they were made into fur coats. In each selection, less than 10% of tame individuals were used as parents of the next generation.

By 2005-2006, almost all the foxes were playful, friendly and behaving like domestic dogs. The foxes could "read" human cues and respond correctly to gestures or glances. The vocalisations they made were different to wild foxes.

"The main surprise was that, together with changing of behaviour, many new morphological traits in tame foxes start to appear from the first steps of selection," said Trut.

The domesticated foxes had floppier, drooping ears, which are found in other domestic animals such as dogs, cats, pigs, horses and goats. Curlier tails – also found in dogs and pigs – were also recorded. [LINK]

In other words, selecting against aggressiveness incidentally made the foxes look like dogs.

Well we already have an animal abuse issue. But, I guess it was 1950's Russia.


meaning they were made into fur coats

I'd be more interested in hearing about a non-artificial fox (tame or otherwise) being made without breeding.

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@ludofl3x
Or an alternate theory might be that while we were selecting against aggressiveness in foxes, Jesus figured out what we were looking for, then decided to make foxes look like dogs, meaning that our efforts to do all that genetic engineering weren't ACTUALLY working, they just looked like they were working, but were actually responding to divine intervention. Feasible?
Not particularly. No.
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@3RU7AL
@ludofl3x
@RoderickSpode
There's not much danger of an AI being sentient in the forseeable future because AIs (such as alpha-go) work by evaluating a 'decision tree'.   Essentially they use brute force and rely on raw speed.   Current AIs don't know what they are doing nor why they are doing it.   Current AI is a great way to make a task-focused robot, but not to make a sentient one.



Castin
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I have no idea why some other atheists enjoy pointing out we're soulless machines so much. "Ha ha! You got no free will, sucka! Your brain is just a machine, God boy! We're all powerless fatherless accidents in a meaningless universe and we're all gonna die and that's it, lights out! Ha ha... ha... heh... eh... oh. Wait."


janesix
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@Castin
Do you believe we are souless machines?
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@janesix
The evidence does point that way unfortunately. I don't love it, but it is what it is.
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@Castin
What evidence?
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@janesix
I have a bit of a fascination with neuroscience. Experiments and experts all suggest that your personality is a system of neural connections, and if I could change those neural connections I could change who you are. The idea that shutting off my oxytocin or something could make me stop loving my family is quite horrifying.

We've already experimented with shutting off the oxytocin in mice, I believe. It had the effect of completely turning off the maternal instinct of a mother mouse. She became totally indifferent to the noises of her baby. They reintroduced the oxytocin to her and her maternal instinct turned back on.
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@Castin
How do you know the brain isn't just a filter? 
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Does anyone else ever feel guilty about the shit we put mice and test animals through? I mean, I get it, science and medicine, but sometimes the sheer coldheartedness of these experiments just really gets to me.
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@janesix
How do you know the brain isn't just a filter? 
How do you mean?

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@Castin
A device to limit experience. 
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@janesix
So, something that is not the source of my consciousness/soul but filters my consciousness/soul?
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@Castin
That's about what I'm suggesting. Not sure of it of course, but some of my experiences suggest it might be the case.
Polytheist-Witch
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Atheists believe in nothing. 
Castin
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@janesix
Well then my answer is I don't know that's not what the brain is. I don't know that we have no free will, either. I can never be certain when there's so much I'm ignorant of.

I just know that nothing I've ever seen or learned has indicated that my consciousness is more than my brain or that I have a nonphysical soul that comes from somewhere else.

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@Castin
Thousands of people throughout history have claimed out of body experiences, which can only mean a non physical soul exists.
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@janesix
It's not enough to just hear about the subjective experiences of others. I need to subjectively experience it for myself.
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@amandragon01
again, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that atheists think there's a story embedded in the brain. very far fetched. you think there's a death story embedded in our brains. it doesn't matter if there's a little variation in the stories, or there's different cultural versions of the NDE, they are still by and large very similar with similar elements, seeing a being of light, meeting dead relatives, having a life review, being told it's not your time etc etc. (in "evidence for the afterlife' the doctor shows that the percent of times each of those elements happens is the same for young kids and people who have never heard of NDEs and non-western NDEs too.... showing the consistency) every story is different, but they are generally the same. if it was just a bunch of random visions or something, then you could rightly call it random hallucinations. but that's not what happens. i cannot see at all how you think your position isn't that there is a story embedded in our brain. it's the only logical conclusion that that's what atheists think. 


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@amandragon01
why isn't there random hallucinations at death? why isn't there imagery of getting abducted by aliens? or something like an acid trip? why is it that there's a coherent and very vivid death story, in some version or another? 

either there's death stories embedded in our brain, or people are actually experiencing an ultimate reality. 

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@n8nrgmi
Why isn't there visions of hell in the vast majority of cases?
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@Castin
but sometimes the sheer coldheartedness of these experiments just really gets to me.

It's clearly impossible to study the effects of oxytocin on behaviour other than by using live animals.

I'd say lab animals are better off than many animals raised for meat and much better off than battery hens.  Cold-hearted is a bit harsh.  Certainly animal researchers have to very objective in their experimental designs to achieve good results, but I think few are 'cold-hearted' in the sense of being indifferent to any suffering they cause.


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@n8nrgmi
why isn't there random hallucinations at death? why isn't t here imagery of getting abducted by aliens? or something like an acid trip? why is it that there's a coherent and very vivid death story, in some version or another? 
It's  impossible to answer those questions unless someone can work out how to nearly kill people in lab conditions!  

Castin
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@keithprosser
but sometimes the sheer coldheartedness of these experiments just really gets to me.

It's clearly impossible to study the effects of oxytocin on behaviour other than by using live animals.

I'd say lab animals are better off than many animals raised for meat and much better off than battery hens.  Cold-hearted is a bit harsh.  Certainly animal researchers have to very objective in their experimental designs to achieve good results, but I think few are 'cold-hearted' in the sense of being indifferent to any suffering they cause.
It's hard to tell what their expressions are behind their masks and sterile layers.

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@Castin
Actually, I might be able to prove you have a soul.

On your karaoke ventures, have you ever sang songs by any African-American pop stars?
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@keithprosser
There's not much danger of an AI being sentient in the forseeable future because AIs (such as alpha-go) work by evaluating a 'decision tree'.   Essentially they use brute force and rely on raw speed.   Current AIs don't know what they are doing nor why they are doing it.   Current AI is a great way to make a task-focused robot, but not to make a sentient one.
Let's imagine for a moment someone creates an AI that is an expert at influencing people. [LINK]

Let's imagine for a moment someone creates an AI that is an expert at legal procedures. [LINK]

Let's imagine these two are combined and given the directive of making its parent corporation the world's richest entity.

It would probably be functionally identical to a sociopath.

Do you consider sociopaths "sentient" and or "conscious"?
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@keithprosser
It's  impossible to answer those questions unless someone can work out how to nearly kill people in lab conditions!   
Done. [LINK]