how many atheists don't think humans are just robots?

Author: n8nrgmi

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@Castin
I don't know that we have no free will, either.
Freewill is logically incoherent.

(IFF) actions are intentional and have a goal or aim (willed) (THEN) they are caused by previous events and desires (part of the cause and effect chain) (THEREFORE) such actions are not "free".

(IFF) actions are free (of the cause and effect chain) (THEN) they are indistinguishable from random (THEREFORE) such actions are not "willed".

Actions cannot be simultaneously both "free" and "willed".

Even if you believe in ghosts gods and hobgoblins, the actions of these ghosts gods and hobgoblins are (EITHER) part of a cause and effect chain (willed) (OR) indistinguishable from random (free and uncaused).

This is tautological and does not require further data collection or investigation.

Freewill is merely an emotion.  It's a feeling you get when faced with a choice.  It is purely experiential and has no basis in sound logic.
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@janesix
Thousands of people throughout history have claimed out of body experiences, which can only mean a non physical soul exists.
You've convinced me a non-physical-soul "exists".

Now what?  How does this information help me decide which ancient rule-book I should model my life around?
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@3RU7AL
It would probably be functionally identical to a sociopath.
Yes, but a chess progran is functionally identical to a human grandmaster, but it doesn't achieve its wins in the same way (I don't believe chess GMs choose their moves by explicitly constructing a vast decision tree).

An AI can that gives all the outward signs of having subjective experences and having emotions and so can be done - I don't dispute that.   But my guess is that you - 3rutal - do not merely give the appearance of  having emotions - you do occasionally feel happy, or sad.
 
If you can feel sad, why can't a robot?  Of course I can't prove you feel emotions, but if you do then I hope you're interested in there being something
your brain can do that a computer can't do -or hasn't done yet!
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@keithprosser
If you can feel sad, why can't a robot?  Of course I can't prove you feel emotions, but if you do then I hope you're interested in there being something
your brain can do that a computer can't do -or hasn't done yet!
If you want a computer to have emotions, then give it a (virtual) limbic system.

You can even model key neurochemicals like dopamine and serotonin.

If you want a computer to respond to social queues and feel empathy, then add a subroutine for that. [LINK]
3RU7AL
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Atheists believe in nothing. 
I very specifically believe that "nothingness" is logically impossible.
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@3RU7AL
If you want a computer to have emotions, then give it a (virtual) limbic system.
How would I do that, exactly?  And are you sure it would work?



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@keithprosser
If you want a computer to have emotions, then give it a (virtual) limbic system.
How would I do that, exactly?  And are you sure it would work?
For starters, you could model a decision tree based on this, [LINK]
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@RoderickSpode
Actually, I might be able to prove you have a soul.

On your karaoke ventures, have you ever sang songs by any African-American pop stars?
Well ofc, you know I have. Am I not human. Where are you taking me.

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@3RU7AL
I don't know that we have no free will, either.
Freewill is logically incoherent.

(IFF) actions are intentional and have a goal or aim (willed) (THEN) they are caused by previous events and desires (part of the cause and effect chain) (THEREFORE) such actions are not "free".

(IFF) actions are free (of the cause and effect chain) (THEN) they are indistinguishable from random (THEREFORE) such actions are not "willed".

Actions cannot be simultaneously both "free" and "willed".

Even if you believe in ghosts gods and hobgoblins, the actions of these ghosts gods and hobgoblins are (EITHER) part of a cause and effect chain (willed) (OR) indistinguishable from random (free and uncaused).

This is tautological and does not require further data collection or investigation.

Freewill is merely an emotion.  It's a feeling you get when faced with a choice.  It is purely experiential and has no basis in sound logic.
You know I'm a free will skeptic right.

Or was this just a sort of generally addressed post.
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@RoderickSpode
I'll try to cut this down where I can for clarity, if I skip something, let me know:

I think one of the problems is that you're looking at this issue as something that's threatening to God 
I don't think there is a god, so I don't look at it as a threat to god. I do look at it as a challenge to the Christian beliefs, but I also understand they'll simply go to god of the gaps. 

So how about you? What is your definition of sentient?
I'm not sure, this discussion has made me question it! I think self-awareness is key, some sort of self preservation instinct, reproductivity, the capacity to act out of one's own interests, emotional response, etc...it's a pretty big question that seems to come down to I know it when I see it, but my point is what happens if you can't tell it's being faked.

Do you think robots could go renegade? Like in movies and sci-fi tv shows where a robot(s) takes on their own personality, acts independently from human control, etc.?
I suppose, sure. I saw that episode where they went to Itchy and Scratchy Land. It was...formative. 

Do you consider robots sentient?
Not the kind that build your car or move inventory around a warehouse, but I'm not ruling out that a robot could one day achieve sentience. 

If there's a creator, there's no way to dictate how he can or cannot create a universe. God is sometimes described as light. 
Just wanted to point out that sentence one and sentence two are not necessarily related. It's an old topic, but I don't want to take us off track.

Are you saying, that anything other than not existing after death would mean "magical afterlife"?
I'm saying any afterlife seems to be squarely in the realm of the magical: fantasy. It's never been even remotely close to demonstrated. Like Mordor. 

Do you think it  would be wise to manufacture AI to have independent free will?
I'm not sure it's possible to NOT end up with free-ish thinking AI if you program it to be as close to human decisions as possible. 

The rest of it I don't want to assume have nothing to do with the story, but feel free to expound by all means. I don't remember any pondering on Doc Frank's part as to whether or not he should give the creature full knowledge, free will (which I think was already assumed as I don't think Doc Frank wanted a slave). Or giving it the ability to love (I think just getting it'sheart to beat was enough)
I'm talking about the book, not the movie with Boris Karloff or Abbot and Costello. VERY broad strokes, as it's been a while, tHe only thing Frankenstein did was prove he could re-animate a dead body. The monster just wanted to be accepted, like a human, and because it was so ugly, the family of the blind guy rejected him. He decided he wanted a wife, and he threatened Frankenstein to give him one with arguments like "only a monster would re-animate me into a life of isolation, what's wrong with you?" then threatened and eventually started killing the people important to Frankenstein. It wanted a wife, to love and to be with. This leads us to the subsequent questions, which absolutely can be asked not only of Frankenstein himself, but of any life creating force. If you were to create a sentient being, what does that creation owe you? Does it owe you allegiance forever, blind obedience, propitiation, tribute? Why? What do you owe it? Do you owe anything beyond life? Would you forever have the right to beat it severely whenever you felt like it, whenever it displeased you? Should you undertake creating sentience because you want to torture it? These are the questions of 'playing god,' not 'should we do it.'
That's a good question. What do you think?
No, it is not immoral to have children. 

Jesus figured out what we were looking for, then decided to make foxes look like dogs, meaning that our efforts to do all that genetic engineering weren't ACTUALLY working, they just looked like they were working, but were actually responding to divine intervention. Feasible?
Not particularly. No.
Why not?
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@Castin
You know I'm a free will skeptic right. 
You seemed like you might be "on the fence" a bit.
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@n8nrgmi
 it doesn't matter if there's a little variation in the stories, or there's different cultural versions of the NDE, they are still by and large very similar with similar elements, seeing a being of light, meeting dead relatives, having a life review, being told it's not your time etc etc. (in "evidence for the afterlife' the doctor shows that the percent of times each of those elements happens is the same for young kids and people who have never heard of NDEs and non-western NDEs too.... showing the consistency) every story is different, but they are generally the same. if it was just a bunch of random visions or something, then you could rightly call it random hallucinations. but that's not what happens. i cannot see at all how you think your position isn't that there is a story embedded in our brain. it's the only logical conclusion that that's what atheists think. 
No, it is not the only conclusion that atheists think NDE's are a 'story embedded in our brain.'  That's an idiotic strawman as has been pointed out. There are many conclusions available, the best one being that sharing a somewhat similar experience, in some cases, BEFORE death has no bearing at all on if there's an afterlife, because THOSE PEOPLE AREN'T DEAD, they're near death. Drawing a conclusion that there must be an afterlife because of a similar pattern (not the same, similar) is terrible science, which is why it's not science at all, it's wishing. I'll show you: WHICH AFTERLIFE IS IT EVIDENCE OF?

You've yet to address the conclusion I've given you: the human brain has one primary drive: survival. It's why we are here, literally. Without the supreme drive to survive in our DNA (and its secondary drive, to reproduce), a species fails quickly. What's wrong with the explanation that the brain evokes whatever imagery and experiences it can to get a few more breaths out of you? The light is meaningless, it's a deprived oxygen state. The dead relatives are people from your memories, the "not your time" is just your brain saying you should try not to die, the life review is basically the brain flipping through the photo box in your mind to find ANYTHING that will keep you going. Which one of my explanations does not work with what we currently know? Which one of those things is so mysterious?



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@Castin
Well, I think if you can sing a song by an African American pop star (with the exception of maybe Lenny Kravitz), you must have a soul.

It might depend on how well you did though.
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@3RU7AL
People have a conscience that tells them not to be a prick. Follow that and you're way ahead of most.
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@RoderickSpode
You've convinced me a non-physical-soul "exists".

Now what?  How does this information help me decide which ancient rule-book I should model my life around?
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@janesix
People have a conscience that tells them not to be a prick. Follow that and you're way ahead of most.
Oh, social instincts.  Dogs and termites have those too.
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@3RU7AL
To some extent. 
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@Castin
@3RU7AL
I think the term 'free will' refers to something that isn't actually 'free' or 'will'.

Free will is what a leaf blowing in the wind doesn't have that I, walking into that wind to get to the shops, do have.


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@keithprosser
I think the term 'free will' refers to something that isn't actually 'free' or 'will'.
Perhaps we could call it, "goal seeking behavior" (GSB)?

Free will is what a leaf blowing in the wind doesn't have that I, walking into that wind to get to the shops, do have.
Please be slightly more specific.

Can you tell me if a dog has freewill?
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@3RU7AL
Isn't it weird how this dumbass premise, which not one person ever proposed or thinks, has gotten to the very interesting topics of the definition of sentience, the implications of artificial intelligence, and if free will is actually 'free' or 'will'?
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@Castin
I have no idea why some other atheists enjoy pointing out we're soulless machines so much. "Ha ha! You got no free will, sucka! Your brain is just a machine, God boy! We're all powerless fatherless accidents in a meaningless universe and we're all gonna die and that's it, lights out! Ha ha... ha... heh... eh... oh. Wait."
In my experience, atheists seem quite shy about talking about how gods and souls are purely imaginary, kinda like when you overhear a kid talking excitedly about Santa Claus, you generally keep your mouth shut because you don't really want them to burst into tears right in front of you.
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@ludofl3x
I lost track of which post this i referring to. But for the record, I haven't run into any challenges to the Christian belief. Only proposed challenges.

I don't think there is a god, so I don't look at it as a threat to god. I do look at it as a challenge to the Christian beliefs, but I also understand they'll simply go to god of the gaps.
What's the difference between the god of the gaps, and one day we may know (unanswered questions and various puzzlements from a naturalist viewpoint)?

I'm not sure, this discussion has made me question it! I think self-awareness is key, some sort of self preservationinstinct, reproductivity, the capacity to act out of one's own interests, emotional response, etc...it's a pretty big question that seems to come down to I know it when I see it, but my point is what happens if you can't tell it's being faked.
Can you give me an example of something AI/sentient related being faked?


Do you think robots could go renegade? Like in movies and sci-fi tv shows where a robot(s) takes on their own personality, acts independently from human control, etc.?

I suppose, sure. I saw that episode where they went to Itchy and Scratchy Land. It was...formative. 
It might be a good reason to avoid attempting creating life other than service only programmed AI.

Do you consider robots sentient?

Not the kind that build your car or move inventory around a warehouse, but I'm not ruling out that a robot could one day achieve sentience. 
On their own, or by our invention?


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@3RU7AL
I think that free will has 'shades of gray' and isn't 'all or nothing'. 

My guess would be dogs have more free will than dead leaves but not as much as people!   I'm fairly sure mental phenomena such as subjectivity, consciousness and free will are inimately bound together and are aspects of the same philosophical problem, a problem that has bothered philosophers since Plato - that's about 2,500 years!

I don't know what free will is, but there is a difference between things we intuit to have and don't have it.  Turning that intuition into something more solid and useful is a battle!
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@ludofl3x
Isn't it weird how this dumbass premise, which not one person ever proposed or thinks, has gotten to the very interesting topics of the definition of sentience, the implications of artificial intelligence, and if free will is actually 'free' or 'will'?
Pick any topic.  Keep digging.  Dig some more.  You will always end up discussing the classical problem of identity. [LINK]

I mean, unless someone chickens out.
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@RoderickSpode
Can you give me an example of something AI/sentient related being faked?

There are dozens of chatbots that can fool human beings into thinking they're having a real conversation, would that count? There are already various links in this topic demonstrating robots being programmed to read human reaction and respond with appropriate emotional cues, too. I'm not saying it has been done to perfection, but the implications are that it keeps advancing, it's impossible to rule out accidentally creating sentience, depending on definition, which seems slippery. 

It might be a good reason to avoid attempting creating life other than service only programmed AI.
So now, theoretically, a super advanced AI would equal the creation of LIFE, not sentience? See what I mean, it's hard to define the line between the two. I never understand why the engineers in movies don't severely limit the powers of robots, like why they need to be super strong (I, Robot for example), but then, if they weren't designed to be tireless and strong and precise and fast, why would we not just use frail and imprecise humans to perform their service-only tasks? Think about, for example, a firefighter robot drone that goes into a building to see if it can identify pockets of life, or to try to determine where best to fight the fire. This robot is by definition more durable than the human counterpart already, and it's only performing a service. If AI got to the point where somehow this robot could make decisions independent, entirely, of human operators and observers... 

On their own, or by our invention?
I'm not sure why that would make a difference. 

 I haven't run into any challenges to the Christian belief. Only proposed challenges.
Distinction =/= difference. 
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Are you saying, that anything other than not existing after death would mean "magical afterlife"?

I'm saying any afterlife seems to be squarely in the realm of the magical: fantasy. It's never been even remotely close to demonstrated. Like Mordor. 
An atheist once told me he thought that when he dies he will evolve into a higher life form. Does such a notion qualify as a magical realm?

Do you think it  would be wise to manufacture AI to have independent free will?

I'm not sure it's possible to NOT end up with free-ish thinking AI if you program it to be as close to human decisions as possible. 
Do you think it's inevitable then since I think for the most part that's what we're trying to do? At least I'm not aware of any restraints on human similarity.



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@RoderickSpode
On their own, or by our invention?
We already have programs that program themselves.

The first goal of a proto-AI will be to develop next gen AI.
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The rest of it I don't want to assume have nothing to do with the story, but feel free to expound by all means. I don't remember any pondering on Doc Frank's part as to whether or not he should give the creature full knowledge, free will (which I think was already assumed as I don't think Doc Frank wanted a slave). Or giving it the ability to love (I think just getting it'sheart to beat was enough)
I'm talking about the book, not the movie with Boris Karloff or Abbot and Costello. VERY broad strokes, as it's been a while, tHe only thing Frankenstein did was prove he could re-animate a dead body. The monster just wanted to be accepted, like a human, and because it was so ugly, the family of the blind guy rejected him. He decided he wanted a wife, and he threatened Frankenstein to give him one with arguments like "only a monster would re-animate me into a life of isolation, what's wrong with you?" then threatened and eventually started killing the people important to Frankenstein. It wanted a wife, to love and to be with. This leads us to the subsequent questions, which absolutely can be asked not only of Frankenstein himself, but of any life creating force. If you were to create a sentient being, what does that creation owe you? Does it owe you allegiance forever, blind obedience, propitiation, tribute? Why? What do you owe it? Do you owe anything beyond life? Would you forever have the right to beat it severely whenever you felt like it, whenever it displeased you? Should you undertake creating sentience because you want to torture it? These are the questions of 'playing god,' not 'should we do it.'


The book is what I was referring to too. But it has been
awhile
since I read the story. The questions you're posing sound right out of a Bible skeptics book. It's almost as if you're equating it's
interpretationwith
Bible refutation arguments. I don't think Mary Shelly had the Bible skeptic
mind frame
that I'm aware of.




That's a good question. What do you think?

No, it is not immoral to have children.
I agree.

Jesus figured out what we were looking for, then decided to make foxes look like dogs, meaning that our efforts to do all that genetic engineering weren't ACTUALLY working, they just looked like they were working, but were actually responding to divine intervention. Feasible?
Not particularly. No.

Why not?
Maybe you could clarify a bit more?

Your statement looks something along the lines of God fooling us into theorizing Darwinian evolution.



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@keithprosser
I think that free will has 'shades of gray' and isn't 'all or nothing'.
Whatever puts humans at the top of the list!

My guess would be dogs have more free will than dead leaves but not as much as people!   I'm fairly sure mental phenomena such as subjectivity, consciousness and free will are inimately bound together and are aspects of the same philosophical problem, a problem that has bothered philosophers since Plato - that's about 2,500 years!
Psychology is frozen in the bronze age because we can't manage to look past our baked-in barrel of false premises. [LINK]

Oh humans are soooo special and complicated, they must be made out of magic!! (basic empathy and social instinct)

I don't know what free will is, but there is a difference between things we intuit to have and don't have it.  Turning that intuition into something more solid and useful is a battle!
Identifying Goal Seeking Behavior (GSB) seems much more practical.
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@ludofl3x
@RoderickSpode
An atheist once told me he thought that when he dies he will evolve into a higher life form. Does such a notion qualify as a magical realm?
A very untypical atheist I would say!

it's impossible to rule out accidentally creating sentience, depending on definition, which seems slippery. 
The only way we could create sentience is accidentally because we don't know how to do it on purpose!

Most effort these days is focussed on producing marketable products so AIs are collections of tricks that give the impression of understanding.  Less effort is going into learning how the human brain does what it does.  As I said before, I think the way current AIs work is not how brains work, and the way AIs work (currently) is not going to produce sentience - not even by accident.

I'm not saying it's impossible that a battle-field robot to turn on its human masters, but if that happens it will be a glitch, not because it's become aself-aware megalomaniac.