Islam, " only a tiny minority".

Author: Stephen

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@Stephen
According to the country's [Saudi Arabia] interpretation of sharia, a married man who commits sodomy, or a non-Muslim who engages in sodomy with a Muslim, can be stoned to death.
Who would have thought you were such a big pro-homosexual human rights advocate!

Are you in favor of sanctioning Saudi Arabia?
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@3RU7AL
Are you in favor of sanctioning Saudi Arabia?

 Irrelevant to  this thread. If you cannot defend your own claims or debunk mine, leave the fkn thread.


Who would have thought you were such a big pro-homosexual human rights advocate!

What I am is neither here nor there.
And I am not entirely sure what your point actually is. But Islam is barbaric and I do not agree with killing  people because they are different.

The usual attitude in the free liberal and democratic west is that whatever people do behind their own doors is entirely their affair. And I happen to agree. Islam doesn't agree with either Liberalism or Democracy or Freedom either.
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@Stephen
 Irrelevant to  this thread. If you cannot defend your own claims or debunk mine, leave the fkn thread.
You're the one who brought up Saudi Arabian laws (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Are you proposing that we treat Saudi Arabia the same as you propose we treat Iran?

It's a simple "yes" or "no" question.
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 Irrelevant to  this thread. If you cannot defend your own claims or debunk mine, leave the fkn thread.
You're the one who brought up Saudi Arabian laws

Yes I did and in response to a very silly person who simply doesn't seem to know or even believe that in ISLAM the penalty for Adultery and Homosexuality is death.  I Just gave him a few examples. 

Are you proposing that we treat Saudi Arabia the same as you propose we treat Iran?It's a simple "yes" or "no" question.
It has nothing to do with this thread. and who are "we"? I am English. and this still has absolutely no bearing on this thread concerning " only tiny minority". If you want to start a thread on the subject go to the politics forum.

You haven't even attempted my question. Would a so called "moderate muslim" call for the death penatlty for anyone performing homsexual acts? YES or NO?  You have avoided this question 5 times now!!!!!!



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@Stephen
Your question is clearly deceptive.

If I polled christians around the planet and said, "do homos deserve to burn in hell for all eternity", how many do you think would say "yes"?

Please present the data you are obviously so eager to present and let's discuss that.
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@Stephen
@3RU7AL
@TheRealNihilist
 Would a so called "moderate muslim" call for the death penatlty for anyone performing homsexual acts?
There remains a step in between knowing that one's religion disapproves of homosexual acts and calling for the death penalty to be implemented.   Presumably many Christians know the verse
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (Lev 20:13) is in the bible but they don't call for the death penalty for gays.  But perhaps if Christian fundamentalists gain power that will be the law.

The problem is that in much of the Muslim world fundamentalists do have political power





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@keithprosser
The problem is that in much of the Muslim world fundamentalists do have political power.  
What should we ought to do about it? 

Mopac
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Homosexuality, as well as all forms of sexual immorality, is certainly harmful to society and should not be treated as a harmless thing.

The fact that homosexual's aren't chucked into furnaces is an act of charity, and they should repay the favor by keeping their lifestyle in the closet and away from children.

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@Mopac
The fact that homosexual's aren't chucked into furnaces is an act of charity...
Case in point.
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@3RU7AL
Maybe if we chopped people's hands off for theft or stoned adulterers to death people would remember this stuff is bad.


But no, you have no point because I am not a "fundamentalist", neither do I effect the law. 

I will point out that modern cultural norms has desensitized your culture to the harmful effects of sexual immorality.

By the time your society is destroyed, the people will be so desensitized to their sins that they will fail to realize that it was their own fault.


Mopac
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I think the big difference here is that while a Christian might say that *insert sin here* might be worthy of death, our religion is to forgive and pray that God will help them before it is too late.

We have no equivalent to sharia. We are not a legalistic faith. Islam is inherently legalistic because it is a political entity.

So no, really, I wouldn't say, "Oh no, those poor innocent fags" is the type of argument we use. They really deserve the punishment, because they are not innocent. We instead would say, "He who is without sin cast the first stone", and an honest person will be forced to admit that in some way they have gotten away with much, and have been forgiven much. Passing it forward is the right thing to do.


And truly, secular government in the west became a thing because of all the religious wars that protestants would fight. This was the way to keep the peace.


Honestly, secular non-religious government that is distinct from the church is probably the most Christian form of government. A government that respects freedom of belief.

The type of secular government that has an aversion to religion would not be included in this. Seperation of church and state in the sense that the government cannot display anything resembling religion is a dangerous idea perpetuated by communists who know damn well that if the state owns everything this form of secularism will be used to eradicate religion.


The Orthodox Church is certainly a hierarchical church, and that sort of thing is also obnoxious to communists, who hold all forms of hierarchy with suspicion.





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We instead would say, "He who is without sin cast the first stone"
So if - by chance - a sinless person did cast the first stone it becomes ok to join in?   I don't think is what is meant.  I think it is intended to block the possibility of  a stoning ever actually happening.
 
It is absurd to suppose that something good or desirable should be blocked, so the capital punishment of gays and adulterers is neither good nor desirable.
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@keithprosser
Not to Christians, because we would rather see someone come to repentance. 

But no, that doesn't mean that sexual immorality is anything but, and truly every single one deserves death. No one should feel sorry for an adulterer. Sexual behavior is a choice, not anything but.

And no, Sharia doesn't put up with that crap. It isn't because it is unjust either. That is my point. It also doesn't put up with the godless either, and surely, it wouldn't be unjust to chuck anyone so foolish as to deny God into a pit of alligators or whatever cruel and medieval punishment sharia prescribes.

But that is the difference between Islam and Christianity. We are a lot nicer.

Atheists not so, the idea of eradicating religion gets them off. That is why every atheist government kills believers to the extent that they can get away with it without pissing off too many people.

Something communists, fascists, and Muslims all have in common. They are all about the secular government.

Stephen
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@3RU7AL

Would a so called "moderate muslim" call for the death penatlty for anyone performing homsexual acts? YES or NO?


Your question is clearly deceptive.

So you,  like just like that other apologist prosser, won't answer that simple question but  instead choose to attack the questioner and ask questions of your own in response. This is not addressing the question. This is typical of apologists for Islam because you know the second you answer that question your argument goes flying out of the fkn window.

These muslims call themselves "moderate" and they may well be  IN THE EYES OF ISLAM!!!! because they all agree that homsexuals and adulterers should be killed. 


If I polled christians around the planet and said, "do homos deserve to burn in hell for all eternity", how many do you think would say "yes"?

 I don't have a clue and neither do you. But burning  "IN HELL" is not the same as being strung up , stoned or burned here on earth in this life by men,now is it. stop being so ignorant. Or do I need to explain that to you . 


Please present the data you are obviously so eager to present and let's discuss that.

What data you fool? I have presented evidence that supports MY fkn argument not one that YOU believe you have!!!!. And the theme of this thread -  MY thread, is dispelling the "only a tiny minority myth". 

So try again or leave the thread.

Repeatedly quoted and requoted, the phrase "only a tiny minority" is often used by apologists when radical Islam bubbles to the surface.

In this 6 minute video that myth is finally put to rest. Interesting is the fact that this person quotes the well respected Pew Research Centre as his source. 
  
The Myth of the Tiny Radical Muslim Minority https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg&t=114s


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@keithprosser
Presumably many Christians know the verse
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (Lev 20:13) is in the bible but they don't call for the death penalty for gays.  But perhaps if Christian fundamentalists gain power that will be the law.

You keep trying don't you, but it doesn't work no matter how many times you try to contextualise ancient 7th century Islam with 21st century Christianity



The problem is that in much of the Muslim world fundamentalists do have political power.  

I think you meant to say ' Islamic world "  didn't you?  Or are you saying that "the MUSLIM world" and the ISLAMIC world are one and the same?

Oh and you missed this question AGAIN! 

Would a so called "moderate muslim" call for the death penatlty for anyone performing homosexual acts? YES or NO?

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@keithprosser
Whether you are a racist and whether I am a 'libtard' is neither here nor there.

Oh please. You would love nothing than me being a PROVEN racist "islamophobe". It would make your life so much easier not to mention your argument where you could put everything I say down to _  ' my racist islamophobic opinion '. without you having to debunk and dispel anything I have to say on the problem of islam. And the reason for this is that you simply have no argument and no answers. Is all you have unsupported opinions and you fail any challenges to those too when asked to. 



Given there is a social issue to be addressed, the important thing is what to do about it.


I agree, so let's hear it. I have given my opinion on that score many times to you and you simply ignored it. So go ahead . Your turn.I have asked you this many times now but you have failed to respond. The issue is Islam and "what to do about it", So let's hear it.



I think the content and tone of your posts exaggerates, exacerbates and misreprents the issues.  

As a rule I only post in support of my claims which are usually from Islamic sources including the quran. I spend most of my time here debunking your fkn claims again WITH ISLAMIC SOURCES!!!!!.  You don't like this and I can't help that you don't like it. Tell me, when someone -YOU - tells me that there are "kinds" "forms" and types of islam" and MUSLIM, am I simply to take YOUR fkn word for it? 



I'm sure even you would not claim that you strive for balance in you posts on Islam! 


Listen, When you make a claim about Islam  and don't agree with it or YOU, then the idea is for me to debunk it, not accept it and go away. Debunking your claim is all about one side OUTWEIGHING the other side, i.e to tip the BALANCE in favour of MY argument, not YOURS!!!!, didn't you know that?


so I try to put some sand on top!  

Sounds a lot like shut me up or cover something up you don't want exposed. 

That's not because I love Islam or don't see the problem it's because I think you are -in a very small way because your audience here is tiny and not very receptive - making things worse using a 'tabloid' approach to a 'broadsheet' problem!

Like I have said many times. If you make a claim that I do not agree with, then  I will set out to debunk that claim. 

Tell me, would a so called "moderate muslim" call for the death penatlty for anyone performing homsexual acts? Yes or NO?



keithprosser
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@Stephen
Would a so called "moderate muslim" call for the death penatlty for anyone performing homosexual acts? YES or NO?

The problem is your insistence that the answer is yes or no.   Sometimes things just aren't that simple, are they?

Are most Muslims in the UK calling for the death penalty for homosexual acts?   As far as I know they aren't.   Many might support or not protest against - such a thing but that isn't the same as actually calling for it.  So is a moderate Muslim one that is against the death penalty, or one that is indifferent about it, or a passive supporter of it, or actively calling for it?   We can assume a muslim that takes it on himself to kill gays is not a moderate, but if it's clear what is not a 'moderate' its not  clear what is.

For different reasons, Stephen and I don't like the word 'moderate'.  I've gone off it recently because it doesn't have a clear meaning.   I think Stephen doesn't like it because it implies there could be an 'acceptable face of islam' different from the demonised bogeyman he promotes.  

You keep trying don't you, but it doesn't work no matter how many times you try to contextualise ancient 7th century Islam with 21st century Christianity
My intent was to illustrate the difference between cultures.  I think that if people try to imagine the US being run by insane fundamentalist evangelicals they will get a good idea of how different the Islamic world is from what we are familiar with.   In my view the diference isn't because Islam is intrinsically different from Christianity but because theocracy is different from secularism.

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@Stephen
I have given my opinion on that score [i.e. what to do] many times to you and you simply ignored it.
I confess to not recalling what you recommended.  But even if I did, there might be someone following this thread who doesn't know what you think should be done so you might care to repeat it.



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@Stephen
Sounds a lot like shut me up or cover something up you don't want exposed. 

Sounds a lot like you want a free hand and to be unchallenged!   This is a debating site, not a soap box or a pulpit - more a bear pit!
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@Mopac
Maybe if we chopped people's hands off for theft or stoned adulterers to death people would remember this stuff is bad.
Well I'm pretty sure we know what would happen if we elected Mopac as supreme leader...
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@Mopac
But that is the difference between Islam and Christianity. We are a lot nicer.
Mehmed II introduced the word Politics into Arabic "Siyasah" from a book he published and claimed to be the collection of Politics doctrines of the Byzantine Caesars before him. He gathered Italian artists, humanists and Greek scholars at his court, allowed the Byzantine Church to continue functioning, ordered the patriarch Gennadius to translate Christian doctrine into Turkish [LINK]
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@Stephen
The whole question revolves around your chosen definition of "radical Muslim".

Generally I take that to mean terrorist or supporting terrorist tactics.

By that standard, approximately 20% of Muslims can be described as "radical" or "extremist".

Many Mormons and Jews and Christians and Amish and Hindus have "controversial opinions" about the role of women in society and homosexuals and generally believe that laws should be based on their (more or less) ancient rule-book of choice.

Terrorists are bad.  I hope that's something we can all agree on.

Being a Muslim does not in-and-of-itself make you a terrorist.

Here's your STEEL MAN. [LINK]
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Would a so called "moderate muslim" call for the death penatlty for anyone performing homosexual acts? YES or NO?

The problem is your insistence that the answer is yes or no.   Sometimes things just aren't that simple, are they?

I ask YOU because you are insisting that there are "types" of muslims. in this case we talking about those muslims you often  refer to as " moderate muslims". I have asked you to explain to me what a "moderate muslims" is. You haven't done so. Are you now saying that there are different "types" of "moderate muslims"? 

and yes it is that simple and it is either yes or no. 

Are most Muslims in the UK calling for the death penalty for homosexual acts? 

These British so called "moderate muslims" are.

 3 Years ago this poll shows that 52% of these British muslims want homosexuality criminalised . I can only imagine what the percentage is today. But if islamic Shariah does take over what then? Will these  "moderate muslims" be happy with simply criminalising homosexuality? And what would be the penalty. what does islam say the penalty is for such "crimes"?


 .

For different reasons, Stephen and I don't like the word 'moderate'. 

Hang on just a minute. You have been banging on about "moderate muslims" for ever, and I have pressed you often on many occasions to explain to me what a "moderate muslim" is. And you have always avoided that question. AND NOW  you are saying you don't even like or have "gone off" the word "moderate"?


I've gone off it recently because it doesn't have a clear meaning.


No you have gone off the phrase simply because the evidence that I have shown you indicates if not proves there isn't any such thing as  "moderate Islam" or a "moderate muslim" to my knowledge.

You simply couldn't say yes or no to a simple question of whether or not the muslims in this 5 minute video were moderate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=3s ...

.....is it any wonder then that you have " gone off the word". It gets you out of very sticky situations . You can no longer say there are "moderate muslims" anymore can you. Like Yassine has clearly asked  you, "why not just muslim"?

When I asked you would a "moderate muslims" demand death for homosexuals, you bulked on that too. And now, just like a little child, you are saying " i don't like this game, because you keep winning". I would expect that from a amoebic sea sponge but never from you. 
 

  I think Stephen doesn't like it because it implies there could be an 'acceptable face of islam' different from the demonised bogeyman he promotes.


No I don't believe there will ever be an "acceptable face of Islam" under any circumstances. There isn't one now, and there never can be one , so there will not be one.  The quran is the last, perfect, unalterable word of god/ Allah. You have to get that into your head,  because there is no getting away from this fact.

You are simply refusing to see this from the muslims standpoint because it goes against what YOU want ISLAM to be. Devout muslims believe that the Quran is the perfect word of god , so if it "perfect" it don't need altering or reforming or dragging into the 21st century. 

You keep trying don't you, but it doesn't work no matter how many times you try to contextualise ancient 7th century Islam with 21st century Christianity

My intent was to illustrate the difference between cultures. 

As if anyone in the west didn't know there was a difference? A  BIG fkn differences. And It doesn't stop at just cultural differences does it. No prosser, there differences in civilisations too. 

I think that if people try to imagine the US being run by insane fundamentalist evangelicals they will get a good idea of how different the Islamic world is from what we are familiar with.  

HOW FKN POMPOUS !!!!  Are you saying that you are trying to educate the rest of the western world into  releasing  "how different the islamic world is" because they simply do not have a clue about the world outside their own homes ????They only have to look at the women dressed head to toe in a roll of black cloth in temperatures over 100 degrees fahrenheit to maybe realise that  "this is different and not for me".FFS!!
People do not have to "imagine" any such thing when the "islamic world" is on their doorstep and not yours. 





Stephen
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@keithprosser
I have given my opinion on that score [i.e. what to do] many times to you and you simply ignored it.
I confess to not recalling what you recommended.  But even if I did, there might be someone following this thread who doesn't know what you think should be done so you might care to repeat it.





No, lets have yours for a fkn change and stop bottling everything I put to you.

This is what you have said above:

Given there is a social issue to be addressed, the important thing is what to do about it.

So, off you go, what do you suggest should be done about it. Start by telling us what the "IT" is and why you believe something should be done about it, if anything?
Stephen
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@keithprosser
Sounds a lot like shut me up or cover something up you don't want exposed. 

Sounds a lot like you want a free hand and to be unchallenged!  


 NOT AT ALL If i didn't want to be challenged I doubt I would still be here.
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@Stephen
You are simply refusing to see this from the [christians] standpoint because it goes against what YOU want [christianity] to be. Devout [christians] believe that the [bible] is the perfect word of god , so if it "perfect" it don't need altering or reforming or dragging into the 21st century. 
Stephen
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@3RU7AL
Being a Muslim does not in-and-of-itself make you a terrorist.

 And you won't find anywhere on this forum where I have even suggested that never mind said it. So I think  it best you just fk off this thread - my thread- where  you have contributed absolutely nothing but ask irrelevant questions such as:


If I polled christians around the planet and said, "do homos deserve to burn in hell for all eternity", how many do you think would say "yes"?  

Where I have responded :

 I don't have a clue and neither do you. But burning  "IN HELL" is not the same as being strung up , stoned or burned here on earth in this life by men,now is it. stop being so ignorant. Or do I need to explain that to you . 

I ask you again, do you need me to explain that to you?


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@Stephen
Being a Muslim does not in-and-of-itself make you a terrorist.
And you won't find anywhere on this forum where I have even suggested that never mind said it.
I'm attempting to map common ground.

(IFF) you agree with this (THEN) just say "I agree".
Stephen
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@3RU7AL
so if it "perfect" it don't need altering or reforming or dragging into the 21st century.  

Nice try, accept for the the silly schoolboy error. 
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@Stephen
Nice try, accept for the the silly schoolboy error.

"Except."