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@secularmerlin
I was never even talking about that
"Religious Freedom" = Discrimination = Hate
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@secularmerlin
When discussing the efficacy of legislation one must consider the worst case scenario.
Civil Rights legislation would apply for outright refusing custom services in that case.
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@Speedrace
All of my replies have been a direct consequence of what you have posted. It is possible that we are misunderstanding one another.I was never even talking about that
Tell me in what way do you feel you have been misrepresented? I would always prefer understanding.
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@secularmerlin
I was talking about Jesus' opinion on conversion therapy
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@secularmerlin
The refusals I've seen, the couple wanted two grooms or two brides on the cake.
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@secularmerlin
If the cakes in the case are significantly different in complexity then it is also untrue in a more fundamental way. But let's assume that it is true for a moment. In that case and if the cakes in the case are what he is offering homosexuals then he has ALREADY baked several gay wedding cakes and I am unclear what difference one more or less would make moralistically or theologically. It rather invalidates the religious objection if that us true.
does his interpretation of what constitutes participation covered by free speech and or freedom of religion? I think it does, so what you consider difference or complexity isn't relevant to his opinion and freedoms.
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@3RU7AL
First, let me clarify what I am not saying. I'm not saying to be mean to gays. What I am saying is this: If you really believe in the seperation of religion and state, what business does the government have using coersion tactics against Christians, when the government almost never forces Muslims (peace be upon them) to violate their religious faith? Second, i personally WOULD serve gays and anyone else for that matter, BUT the government should let it be my choice to decide what does and does not constitute a violation of my personally helf religious beliefs. Can you understand where I'm coming from? I while I do support President Trump, am not a conservative, or a liberal. I say let gays get married, as long as Christians and other people of faith have freedom of faith practice. I have been disciminated against for my Christian faith a few times, and while it made me mad, I'm still breathing. I affirm that i don't have the right to force people to be Christians, just as non-Christians don't have the right to stop me from practicing my Christian faith. What am I saying then? I am saying liberty of religion, thought, and speech, are two way streets, and I am not bowing to the government. We have too much government, and not enough individual, and collective liberty. For the record, i am a centrist Republican, because the far left targeting only Christians, and not other religious people groups seems hypocritical to me. I don't want to offend anyone, just live my life between Jesus, and myself. I hope that helps. #DoYouBoo
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@Speedrace
If Jesus was a historical figure he lived long before the concept of gay conversion therapy and as a consequence probably had very little to say on the subject.
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@secularmerlin
So we look at stuff he said that was on similar subjects...
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@Speedrace
But we're not talking about what Christians believe, we're talking about what the Bible says
Added: 05.11.19 11:04PM
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If the bible gives any figures on this I'm unaware of it but even if it did how have you determined that the bible is an accurate source for determining it?
Speedy: Because we're talking about Christianity...
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@disgusted
Huh?
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@Speedrace
How have you determined that we have accurate records in this regard?So we look at stuff he said that was on similar subjects...
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I'm going to be honest I've been trying to puzzle this out and I just don't get what you are trying to say here. I'm sorry to ask but could you possibly rephrase this?does his interpretation of what constitutes participation covered by free speech and or freedom of religion? I think it does, so what you consider difference or complexity isn't relevant to his opinion and freedoms.
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@secularmerlin
Yes
So we look at stuff he said that was on similar subjects...How have you determined that we have accurate records in this regard?Yes
This is not an answer to my question. How have you determined that we have accurate records of what Jesus said?
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@YeshuaRedeemed
It's not a question of "religious freedom" or Christian prosecution, UNLESS you can show me where it says in "The Bible", anything even remotely resembling, "don't sell or make stuff for gays or sinners".First, let me clarify what I am not saying. I'm not saying to be mean to gays. What I am saying is this: If you really believe in the seperation of religion and state, what business does the government have using coersion tactics against Christians, when the government almost never forces Muslims (peace be upon them) to violate their religious faith? Second, i personally WOULD serve gays and anyone else for that matter, BUT the government should let it be my choice to decide what does and does not constitute a violation of my personally helf religious beliefs. Can you understand where I'm coming from? I while I do support President Trump, am not a conservative, or a liberal. I say let gays get married, as long as Christians and other people of faith have freedom of faith practice. I have been disciminated against for my Christian faith a few times, and while it made me mad, I'm still breathing. I affirm that i don't have the right to force people to be Christians, just as non-Christians don't have the right to stop me from practicing my Christian faith. What am I saying then? I am saying liberty of religion, thought, and speech, are two way streets, and I am not bowing to the government. We have too much government, and not enough individual, and collective liberty. For the record, i am a centrist Republican, because the far left targeting only Christians, and not other religious people groups seems hypocritical to me. I don't want to offend anyone, just live my life between Jesus, and myself. I hope that helps. #DoYouBoo
And since it is not apparently in "The Bible" it is NOT a matter of "religious freedom" and it IS INSTEAD simple DISCRIMINATION.
If you want to hand-pick your customers, OPEN A PRIVATE CLUB.
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@Stronn
Show me the holy text.Are you contending that only religious beliefs with scriptural backing should be protected? If so, it begs the question of what constitutes scripture. For instance, say I had a revelation and wrote the Book of Stronn. Would that count?If you will only accept mainstream scripture, then I give you the Vedas, the holy texts of Hinduism. In them disability is said to be caused by karma and possession by evil spirits. If I don't want people with bad karma or those possessed by evil spirits in my business, should I be forced to allow them?
I'm only saying, (IFF) you claim a "religious objection" (THEN) you must show the text.
Religious practice is not cate-blanche. Clearly polygamy and public stonings are "Biblical" and yet, not allowed in modern society.
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@Mopac
Is sexual orientation evena protected class to begin with? In the context of a business being allowed to refuse service?Not where I live. Not to my knowledge.
Second Circuit Says Sexual Orientation Is Protected Under Title VII
With a broader circuit split, this case will almost certainly give the high court another opportunity to resolve the issue. [LINK]
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@Mopac
I think comparing sexual orientation to race is kind of asinine, but I am all for loving everyone.
Wait, because you think one's a "choice"?
So you're totally fine with discrimination based on someone's religion because that's also clearly a "choice"?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
- If you offer one set of services to one customer, you must offer those same or equivalent services to all paying customers.
He was, he was offering heterosexual wedding cakes to anyone who wanted to buy one.
That's not what the sign said.
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@secularmerlin
sure I'll try I have a couple of opinions here
if the country is to maintain Freedom of Religion then it does need certain protections in the form of objecting to things.
The bible is not objective but subjective thus open to personal interpretation generally (many different bible based religions) which must also be accepted to maintain Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech, expression etc
People should not be forced, threatened or intimidated into preforming they artistic or unique ability by the government generally speaking, if we are free and have some bodily autonomy and freedoms. Anything that I wish to create I should have total control over unless agreed upon by me. Forcing to create is akin to slavery.
So, if you would like me to create x, I will if I want to, if I don't then I shouldn't be forced to in the context of what is above. If the reason I don't want to is because of some religious objection then that generally must be accepted because of above, though I don't believe any reason is required due to slavery being abolished.
A heterosexual couple comes in, or an individual for that matter. They ask me for a cake, however the name they want reminds me of a traumatic event, should I be forced to comply anyway if I don't want to? I would say no, again regardless of a reason or lack of. I can choose not to do something in a free-ish country.
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@Alec
It also says you should stone people to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.The bible says that men who practice homosexuality will go to hell.
Why do you think one of these is more important than the other?
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@3RU7AL
That's not what the sign said.
have you gone into any store that does custom work and expect they will do anything you want?
fine from now on everyone engaged in such business should have on their sign, "Subject to approval" problem fixed, see how easy that was?
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@3RU7AL
It also says you should stone people to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.
This was old testament. The OT is merely a historical document unless Jesus says to still abide by it. Otherwise, you would see Christians being kosher like the Jews. Despite this, there is NT quotes that have alienated me from Christianity.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
So, if you would like me to create [a fancy cappuccino], I will if I want to, if I don't then I shouldn't be forced to in the context of what is above. If the reason I don't want to is because of some religious objection then that generally must be accepted because of above, though I don't believe any reason is required due to slavery being abolished.
Nobody's forcing you.
You can just quit. Or OPEN A PRIVATE CLUB.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
The design itself was never even discussed in the gay wedding case.have you gone into any store that does custom work and expect they will do anything you want?
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@3RU7AL
right, everyone in a similar business should have that, problem solved.
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@3RU7AL
Nobody's forcing you.You can just quit. Or OPEN A PRIVATE CLUB.
oh so the 2 options are quit or change my business to private, and that you don't consider force, what if I don't want to quit or open as private what then? What is your option or remedy then? Ah yes you'd force me to, but that's not force, roger that.
The design itself was never even discussed in the gay wedding case.
what difference that does make, he had a religious objection for it's intended purpose, not that he even needed to give a reason.
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@Alec
This was old testament.
The Roman Catholic Church is responsible for changing the Sabbath to Sunday and enforcing Sunday observance. To assemble together on any other day for a religious observance was considered unlawful. This was confirmed at the Council of Laodicea almost 40 years later in a.d. 363. At that conference, it was decreed, “Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, resting rather on Sunday. But, if any be found to be Judaizing, let them be declared anathema [cursed and excommunicated] from Christ.” [LINK]
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
oh so the 2 options are quit or change my business to private, and that you don't consider force, what if I don't want to quit or open as private what then? What is your option or remedy then? Ah yes you'd force me to, but that's not force, roger that.
Obviously not every person who has refused service has been taken to court, but it is apparently a risk.
And as far as I can tell, the cake man was NEVER FORCED TO MAKE A GAY CAKE. Mostly because HE WON THE CASE.
But it WAS NOT a victory for "religious freedom" it was a victory for "artistic expression" = "free speech".
Which is a little funny because if someone asks me to make a cake that says "World's Best Mom", that sentiment is not my "free speech".
I really have no idea if that total stranger is the "World's Best Mom", my suspicion is, probably not.
However, it seems obvious that the message on the cake is not my own PERSONAL endorsement.