Why do you think God allows disease?
Please differentiate your ultimate reality from regular reality.Do you believe that there is Ultimate Reality?
In your worldview, death is the final curtain. There is no fear of death for those who trust God. As I get older though I realize how fleeting life on earth is. It goes by quickly.Yes 3.5 billion years of precedent proves that death is the final curtain. You fear death so much that you try desperately believe that it doesn't exist and the fantasy of a god is your support mechanism. Fantasies aren't real you know. And that life you have spent believing in fantasies to pacify your fears has been a waste, because it's all we get.
Then enjoy yourself. From an evolutionary perspective, nothing really/ultimately matters but you can make it matter for a while and deceive yourself. You continually borrow from my Christian worldview when you make it matter.Giving life meaning is all we have, it's you who deceives himself. Evolution is a fact and pretending to yourself that it's not for the sole purpose of pacifying your abject fear of death is the behaviour of a child. You have absolutely nothing that I could possibly wish to borrow and that's just something else that frightens you.
What you call good is not so with abortion. It's all based on feelings and preference for you can draw no reference to an absolute or ultimate standard. As you say, you make it up, and when your idea conflicts with someone else there is war, greed, strife as the greater imposes their "good" on the weaker. So, your standards are no better than Hitler's.I am the ultimate arbiter for what is good and your ultimate standard is a fictional character invented a couple of thousand years ago by IPSS, it just doesn't match up to mine. Now you need to cite how many wars I've started. Hitlers standards were your god's standards they both practiced genocide, your god was allegedly better at it. You have no authority over any woman's body.
determining this without a necessary Being since standards shift and change.The IPSS that you claim are an unchanging standard most definitely do change or you would be stoning non virgin wives.
You deceive yourself by thinking a woman should have the right to kill another human being. What is good about that? It is a selfish thing to kill your own offspring. What if that human being were you, would you still feel the same?All this time and you still lie about my argument, godists can't exist without habitual lying it's no wonder you're a dying breed. When you can start telling the truth come back, I'm sick of dealing with your pathetic lies.
It is to distinguish between that which is relatively real or real in a sense with that is real absokutely and without contingency.The Ultimate Reality.It is real independent of perception or conception.Television might be a reality, but it is not The Ultimate Reality.Ultimate Reality is reality in the truest and most complete sense of what that means
It's certainly presuppositional, no?
that doesn't in any way demonstrate that an ultimate reality exists. It seems sort of special plead-y. There is literally no way to demonstrate that somehow without god 2 +2 would not still equal 4. It's certainly presuppositional, no?
If there is no ultimate reality, that means that there isn't anything that is ultimately real.If there isn't anything that is ultimately real, there is no such thing as reality.If there is no such thing as reality, 2 + 2 = 4 cannot really be true.And really, none of us would be here to discuss these things to begin with.
Here you go with your charges and maligning of my character again. It is a typical ploy of a leftist liberal who doesn't have a sufficient answer so they vindictively attack the character of the person rather than the argument. It is done by Democrats in your country every day and it is pathetic.
You deceive yourself by thinking a woman should have the right to kill another human being.
You fail to understand the change in covenants and the purpose of the Old Covenant
Chance cannot reason yet if reason does not originate from a necessary Being it must originate through random (chance) processes. Demonstrate how.I'm not the one making a supernatural claim. But it looks like you're a presuppositionalist, is that fair?
Also, since there is no reason for the universe (reason requires reasoning being) why do we constantly find reason in the universe, precise reasoning that we use mathematical equations to explain? If there is no sense to the universe because it was not created by an omnipotent, reasoning, and logical Being, then why do we keep finding reason in everything we analyze?This is using the same word to mean different things. Reason FOR and reason IN are not the same. Reason FOR the first portion means something more akin to cause, but still is inexact, in that I'm not sure there needs to be a REASON for the universe. It just seems to be here, that's about all we know about it. Reason IN something. I think you're using that more like 'purpose.' There is no reason IN the universe, no purpose inherent. I mean unless you can demonstrate otherwise, right? I don't understand your assertion that we keep finding reason in everything we analyze. Let's demonstrate: what's the REASON (cause version) for the insurmountable distance between our sun and the next star? Gravitational attraction / particle mass distribution / initial dispersal of matter / couple of comet collisions, etc. Any of those is a feasible answer, because they obey the laws of nature and work with all known models. Now, what's the PURPOSE of the distance?
Truth value requires conscious, reasoning beings and yet you keep finding truths about the supposed chance universe. As many have pointed out, it is almost like we are thinking Someone else's thoughts after Him!Truth does not require conscious, reasoning beings at all. If, for example, humanity was wiped off the face of the planet tomorrow by some horrible disease or cataclysm, that the sun would still rise in the east the next day would still be true.
But the question is how do reasoning beings come from chance happenstance?Questions answered by evolution, and, I might point out, even if for no reason other than an abundance of magnanimity, I granted that your assertion here, the answer "Super Being" would not in any way mean it was the god described in the bible.
It seems you think as humans we have the market cornered on reasoning by way of your version of god endowing us with the same. Would it be reasonable to say we understand the laws of gravity through reasoning? If so, can dogs also reason? Because they understand that gravity exists without any semblance of scientific theory.
Laws? How do we have laws if there is no lawgiver? If the universe is a chance happenstance then why should things remain constant? There is no reason they would or should, yet they do. What should that tell you? So why do you have these laws of nature without conscious agency and intent is not logical, is it? It does not compute.The laws of nature a descriptive, not prescriptive. You know that this word, laws, also has numerous meanings and connotations. They describe and quantify what we observe. Again, you're trying to imbue purpose by calling it REASON. You're mixing the meanings. Can you demonstrate the conscious agency that said "And I'm going to make a hole in the universe so large that the people who observe it literally will not be able to accurately imagine how big it is? (Bootes void)" If not, then why appeal to it as it comes to the laws of nature?
And how do you get a "best" without an absolute, unchanging, objective standard or reference point? Why is your relative standard any better than any other relative standard?Not this tired canard. Please. I didn't say there was a 'best,' nor did I say there needed to be. My standard is based entirely on how my actions affect the rest of my species, and my surroundings, just like yours.
Morality has been answered repeatedly, it's evolutionarily hard wired into any social creature.It is not explained. If we are just biological functions and our "behavior" is governed by our genetics and the environment, then why should what I do be good or bad? It is just what has been determined by my genetic make-up and when a person murders another person all that is happening is a response to the specific genetic make-up. Why is the good or bad? Where is the free will here?And how do you get a "best" without an absolute, unchanging, objective standard or reference point? Why is your relative standard any better than any other relative standard?
If my actions were repeatedly and demonstrably detrimental to society, I'd be removed from it in one way or another, and it's much, much harder to function and reproduce that way, when you're cast out.
Natural selection takes over from there, and whatever it is in my genetic makeup that caused me to act that way, that is not continued into the next generation. It's really simple, it's how every successful species of pack animal develops. I am not sure there is free will, but in your scenario, there isn't free will either (unless you think god can be surprised somehow).
Your 'best' standard has pronouncements in its books about stoning gay people, right?
About genocides endorsed by an all powerful god who would be able to simply delete any offending individuals, right? About plundering neighboring tribes and raping women, right? Honestly though, if you're going to go with "Why should I be good if there's not Jesus? Without him, I'd be out pillaging til the cows come home," then please, by all means, continue believing whatever is keeping you from doing so.Do you believe you'd be able to convince a Hindu that your standard is better than theirs?
Have you ever?
Or even closer: do you think you could convince Mopac that what he believes is wrong and he's therefore likely bound to hell, or that he could convince you of the same?
Both of you think you're right, and the other one's wrong, and yet both believe in the same deity. If the answer is "It doesn't matter," then why do people choose denominations?
No, I have hope and I can offer it. I am being honest. What is your standard for honesty? Your worldview can't offer hope for someone dying of cancer without lying to them. You borrow from the Christian standard to comfort them. There is no compassion in an evolutionary process.You admit you cannot offer such a person hope. It just shows the grim reality of hopelessness and despair from your worldview.How does "Got cancer?
Aw, well at least you're probably going to heaven" in any way offer honest comfort?
It's a pacifier for a baby. Yeah, reality can be grim. Hiding from it doesn't change it. Compassion is an necessary element in the evolution of successful pack species: the ability to consider the consequences and how they effect the other pack members. If you don't have it, you act inappropriately and eventually your genetic material is weeded out. I don't feel hopeless and I don't walk around in despair. I just had a cousin lose his dad to cancer, should I have told hmi "Well, God did that, you should feel great?" or should I say "I'm so so sorry that you lost your dad. What can I do to help you get through this difficult time?" Should I say "I have an idea, let's sit here and think about why this was really a great thing in the grand scheme of things. You know, thank Jesus that your son never got to know his grandfather"? Sorry man, but the world can be a grim place, it's our responsibility to make it better.
Also, don't you only offer hope for Christians? Like if you met a Muslim, a devout Muslim, as sure as you are about your faith, dying of cancer, would you tell him he was going to hell for not accepting Jesus? Want to guess what an atheist would tell a Muslim? It's not hard. It's the same as what I'd tell my cousin.
First, the universe is unreasoning. Agreed?
We are reasoning beings, so somehow reason is derived from the unreasoning (from something that is not reasoning). Is that reasonable to believe?
Third, the universe is unreasoning, yet through our reason, we find meaning IN the universe, in what exists. Why should we expect to find reasons in a universe that is devoid of reason, just events of happenstance?
Fourth, if there is no reason for the universe there is no way of explaining why it is here. There is no "why." As you say, it just is and just came to be. Is that logical to believe?
If it came to be then what is the cause? Logically, it can't self-create, can it? Surely, for something to create itself it would first have to be, or else you have something coming from nothing. Something from nothing is not something you witness, is it? It is a logical impossibility, is it not? How can you derive something from nothing?
Why did the Big Bang happen (if that is your mode of the start of the universe), or what caused it?
How did we get this "singularity?"Where did it come from?
Why do we have gravity and gravitational pull?Why does the earth revolve around the sun at the precise distance?
The Christian explanation, and it is a reasonable one, is that we discover these laws because there is a Lawgiver that has crafted the universe. Mathematics is a conceptual science. We are able to explain how things in the universe work because there is a Mind behind the universe, not just random chance happenstance.
How is this a question? Do you mean "How does the hope of heaven" give comfort? It relies on the testimony of One greater than us to reassure us by His word which He demonstrates is true and reasonable in various ways, such as prophecy.
According to evolutionary theory, only the strong survive and there is no rhyme nor reason for it to be this way. They survive, period, thus they are seen as the strong. So, if it is beneficial to be compassionate to others you survive, and if it is not in your interests because you will not survive then you will be ruthless, as is the witness of history way too often. I'm sure I can provide you with countless examples where compassion is not the criterion or what you call the necessary element of survival in the evolutionary process.
[3] There is a reason for cancer, for death and decay. It is called sin, rebellion from God. It is the consequence of humans rejecting God and His guidance. It is humanity thinking they know better than God (and what a mess). And the inhumanity of human against human, how do you explain this moral evil if it is just our biological make-up working in whatever way they are programmed to work? What makes that evil or bad or wrong? Nothing. What makes the genocide of Stalin, or Mao wrong? What makes the suppression of Kim Jong-un on his people wrong? He is doing what he deems necessary for his survival and for a luxurious survival at that.What death does is it makes us think about our temporary existence and the MEANING of life. Since the Fall we have thought about this meaning. We see meaning in everything we do and all that is around us yet you refuse to acknowledge why there is this meaning that our consciousness seeks out.Ultimate, your worldview has no meaning to life. You are just a biological accident, and you just make up something because you like it, then you are gone, and no one cares (two generations down the line) about you.[3] So when a mother is cradling the body of her dead six month old after succumbing to pediatric leukemia, your "comfort" to this person is "Too bad Adam and Eve ate that apple, that's why your baby is dead."
This is not difficult: if you are violating a thinking being's free will (or illusion thereof), if you are causing bodily harm for the exercise of your own power, if you are without reason infringing on the life or wellbeing of the people around you, it's wrong. Now, there are tons and tons of conditions and issues and nuances there, but this is boiling it down to the very simple: huriting others when it's not necessary for your own survival or for the continue flourishing of our society and species is wrong, and knowing that doesn't require any thinking agent lving in another dimension to be real.
Since you have such a sure handle on it, what IS the meaning of this life? Specifically, what's the meaning of this life for a non-Christian?
You're almost right about meaning in my worldview. It's not there is NO meaning. It's there's no INHERENT, PREDETERMINED meaning. I have to make that on my own, and live with the consequences until I'm dead and eventually, yes, forgotten like the thousands of generations before me. I don't need to tell myself I'm anything more inherently special than anyone else, that something different is going to happen to me when I die than is going to happen to my friend Ibrahim or Sanjay, and unless I do something REALLY SUPER with my life, yeah, I'm just going to be forgotten. I don't know why that's so awful, I won't be around to care, I'll be dead.
BIBLE STUFF DELETED
The Bible gives reason for an absolute, objective, eternal, unchanging, final reference and measure.
For the unbeliever, the meaning is fleeting and whatever they make it. Meaning holds no ultimate significance in the unbelieving worldview for the universe is meaningless and the unbeliever supposedly returns to this meaninglessness at death. So, your life, in the big picture is meaningless, yet you borrow from the Christian worldview that says there is meaning, or at least we make it, and we SHOULD treat life as meaningful (or else we have despair like so many do who question the ultimate point of life and believe there is none).
I checked the link... you didn't quote the summary line:• Fascism is the opposite of Socialism.I am very aware of what 'nazi' means. Names are, however, oft misleading! North Korea is officially the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".
Here you go with your charges and maligning of my character again. It is a typical ploy of a leftist liberal who doesn't have a sufficient answer so they vindictively attack the character of the person rather than the argument. It is done by Democrats in your country every day and it is pathetic.You are really pitiable.
The below is an absolute LIE.You deceive yourself by thinking a woman should have the right to kill another human being.Calling out your lies is not a personal attack it is a service to you, it gives you the chance to reevaluate your life choices and improve as a human being. Lying is required by god belief and I'm trying to get you to be honest.
You fail to understand the change in covenants and the purpose of the Old CovenantDoes your bible order that non virgin wives be stoned to death? YesIs that a biblical standard? Yes
Are you claiming that that standard has changed? Yes.
Do you claim that the standard for your morality (biblical standard) is unchanging? Yes
Without any personal attack I've proven conclusively that you lie.
First, the universe is unreasoning. Agreed?I can't see any reason to disagree with this.
We are reasoning beings, so somehow reason is derived from the unreasoning (from something that is not reasoning). Is that reasonable to believe?I think "has resulted from" is more accurate than "is derived from."
Third, the universe is unreasoning, yet through our reason, we find meaning IN the universe, in what exists. Why should we expect to find reasons in a universe that is devoid of reason, just events of happenstance?We don't find it there. We PUT it there. We assign it. This is where we differ. And I think you're mixing meanings again. Can you give me a reason, for example, for all these exoplanets we keep finding? Can you give me a reason in the Bootes Void? I can give you reasons FOR both, but reason IN neither.
Fourth, if there is no reason for the universe there is no way of explaining why it is here. There is no "why." As you say, it just is and just came to be. Is that logical to believe?Yup, because there's nothing so far that points us in any direction otherwise. And it doesn't matter any further than because it's here, we're here.
If it came to be then what is the cause? Logically, it can't self-create, can it? Surely, for something to create itself it would first have to be, or else you have something coming from nothing. Something from nothing is not something you witness, is it? It is a logical impossibility, is it not? How can you derive something from nothing?Don't go down the "everything that exists has a cause" CALAM stuff, because you know that just leads to well what created whatever you think created the universe? I don't know what caused it. I don't know if something can come from nothing, but we certainly haven't witnessed that process. I don't know how it happened, but neither do you. I'm just stopping at I don't know. You're taking an unearned step (two, at least): well I don't know, so it must be someone! This is an argument from ignorance.
Why did the Big Bang happen (if that is your mode of the start of the universe), or what caused it?Don't know and makes no difference. It happened.
How did we get this "singularity?"Where did it come from?Don't know, not sure that it matters. But I'm sure you're not going to say Jesus put it there, otherwise why leave it out of the bible?
Why do we have gravity and gravitational pull?Why does the earth revolve around the sun at the precise distance?These are easily answered scientific questions. Appealing to the supernatural to explain them is your job, not the job of someone who just says "The math works out that way."
The Christian explanation, and it is a reasonable one, is that we discover these laws because there is a Lawgiver that has crafted the universe. Mathematics is a conceptual science. We are able to explain how things in the universe work because there is a Mind behind the universe, not just random chance happenstance.This last bit proves you don't care about any of the other bits at all, gravity, the big bang, etc. No matter what the scientific explanation is, you just move god one step further back: well, gravity exists because of matter's density in relation to spacetime, and gravity behaves in such and such a way that comports with these models, but that is just how God set it up! And he WANTED us to discover it eventually! It's special pleading (uncaused cause) + god of the gaps. I'll give you that it IS difficult to penetrate using reason and logic, but the flaws in it are glaring.
If the universe began to exist, then it had a cause. That cause = God. What caused God to exist? Oh, he always existed! Well then why can't the universe in one form or another have always existed?
You're starting with an end answer and trying to make the problem fit, rather than look at the problem and find the answer.
In rough mathematical terms, you have an equation with a string of like 14,000 variables all undefined, but the equals sign is followed by the number 9852349572112359. You're insisting you know each variable because you presuppose the answer, the problem is that with ONLY variables on one side of the equation, you cannot have a numerical answer, and the more you add to the equation, the more difficult it gets to arrive at an answer. Example:X + Y =35. How can you solve for X or Y without one of them ending up on the wrong side of the equals sign? How many different answers are there? How do you know if X is 30 and Y is 5, or X is 16 and Y is 19? You can't. You're insisting you do. Now, what if that equation because X + Y + Z = 100? See the problem? These cannot be solved in a way that does not ALSO move a variable to the wrong side of the equals.
You suppose (as presuppositionalists do) that not only is there a lawgiver, but that it's YOUR VERSION of that lawgiver.
I would point you to another topic if you want to answer this: in the history of mankind, let's call it 200,000 years, folks like you are always quick to point out there have been FAR more people who believe in "something did this" than there are people like me, who say there's no reason to believe that's the case and ask why you do. Somehow, you think this supports the truth of there being something else out there. One of the many problems with this argument is plain: there have also been FAR MORE, FAR FAR MORE, people that never ever ever believed anything remotely close to what you CURRENTLY believe. Yet you are certain you're right and you use the belief in ANYTHING as support for believing in your specific thing.
For the sake of space, in morality terms there is almost never a 'best', and I can change "better" to "more beneficial to the species" and the argument stands.
I don't care if you adopt my standard for morality, until such time as it interferes with me, then we have an issue.
If you, like so many other religious people, want to argue that without GOd and his prescriptive morality we'd all be raping and killing each other, then by all means, please stay loyal to Jesus. I've raped and killed the exact number of people I have ever wanted to rape or kill. Zero. Without Jesus. Or the threat of hell, or expecting a reward.
How is this a question? Do you mean "How does the hope of heaven" give comfort? It relies on the testimony of One greater than us to reassure us by His word which He demonstrates is true and reasonable in various ways, such as prophecy.How does the idea that Adam ate an apple, that was put there by your god, according to the myth, and therefore your two year old has leukemia, comforting? How do you tell the grieving mother, sorry, this is justice! Be glad they're in heaven. And it only works your way if you're a christian who believes. If you find this same mother as a muslim with a dead baby, you can comfort her by saying what exactly?
According to evolutionary theory, only the strong survive and there is no rhyme nor reason for it to be this way. They survive, period, thus they are seen as the strong. So, if it is beneficial to be compassionate to others you survive, and if it is not in your interests because you will not survive then you will be ruthless, as is the witness of history way too often. I'm sure I can provide you with countless examples where compassion is not the criterion or what you call the necessary element of survival in the evolutionary process.This is another problem with language: to survive they aren't seen as STRONG. They're seen as most beneficial to reproduction. It's a far less pithy saying to say "Survival of the ones who did the best at reproducing" than it is to say "Survival of the fittest." Yes, if my survival is threatened, I'll ruthlessly defend it. I didn't call compassion THE necessary element. It's A necessary element for genetic continuation in pack animals.
