Parables: The Way to Heaven

Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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#211
Tradesecret
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@disgusted
Total Depravity
For such low life despicable bastards you sure have an outlandishly high opinion of yourselves in the rest of it.
Hubris being the highest state you reach it would seem.
Do you teach your children that your god deliberately creates billions of people for the sole purpose of torturing them for eternity?

I don't teach my children the lies you have made up about God.  
will be unable to resist his grace because grace is a gift that comes from God and is given without even the condition of receiving it. 
Can you even imagine how asinine this is?

Grace is unmerited gift.  It is given - like life is given to every person who exists. No one asks for life - it is given them and they cannot resist it in the first place - it is only after many years that they might gain a clue that they can kill themselves or that life is not forever. Eternal life is also given without the beneficiaries consent. 
#212
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@Tradesecret
I don't teach my children the lies you have made up about God.
Please elucidate these lies. Defend your god against his evil as proved by your god and your beliefs. You haven't yet refuted anything I've said, that's because Everything I've said is supported by you and your god.
will be unable to resist his grace because grace is a gift that comes from God and is given without even the condition of receiving it. 
Can you even imagine how asinine this is?

Grace is unmerited gift. 
It's a gift even when you don't receive it. How does that work?


#213
Mopac
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@Tradesecret
I was probably an unknowing Calvinist before becoming Orthodox. Studying the church fathers, starting with Augustine in fact(who got me interested in the others) lead me to the realization that the only church that matches the church that these fellahs belonged to is The Orthodox Catholic Church.

But if course, even we would say that salvation is a matter of grace, not works, and God respects what we have to work with, and looks at our heart. What is really important is that we are trying, and God knows. Otherwise, who could make it? Our righteousness is as filthy rags.

But we certainly believe in free will, as did Augustine. As far as I know, Calvin did not believe in free will. As far as I know, the type of double predestination that Calvin taught is not Orthodox, and is not even really what Augustine taught either.



Orthodoxy doesn't really accept the idea of total depravity. Augustine believed that we all inherited the guilt of Adam and Eve, while Orthodoxy teaches rather that we inherited the mess. Augustine's error when it comes to this has been traced to the fact that the Latin translation of the New Testament renders Romans 5:12 in a way to imply that we all share Adam's guilt.

The church teaches that as we are made in the image of God, the purest state of being human is actually good. Really it is the sin we fall in that diminishes our humanity. I must admit even that was kind of a shock to me at first because I without even knowing really bought into the idea of total depravity!





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#214
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
Yes/no?
#215
keithprosser
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yes/no?
you'll have to remind us which question that refers to!

#216
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@Discipulus_Didicit
God is not divided into parts. 1 essence, undivided. 

I am very certain of what I am talking about, that certainty does not overcome the reality that we are using the medium of creation to speak of the Uncreated. 

And that is the reason for the Trinity. We are not talking about a God that is a conception, but a God that is far beyond conception. The Ultimate Reality, what that is In Truth.


It is kind of like describing a piece of music using words.

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#217
Discipulus_Didicit
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@keithprosser
In post 207 I try to review the discussion to make sure we have made some progress in understanding before I continue asking my questions.

Mopac hasn't responded to it at all, most likely because he has four people replying to his posts at once. He very probably missed 207 entirely.

Edit: He responded while I was typing this.
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#218
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
God is not divided into parts. 1 essence, undivided. 

Right.


I am very certain of what I am talking about, that certainty does not overcome the reality that we are using the medium of creation to speak of the Uncreated.

So accuracy rather than certainty, okay.

And that is the reason for the Trinity. We are not talking about a God that is a conception, but a God that is far beyond conception. The Ultimate Reality, what that is In Truth.

Right.

Okay so we are on the same page now and mostly were before.

So, now that we have established that you do care whether or not your beliefs are accurate and that your reason for believing is primarily personal experience I wonder if you could answer for me this question... Is personal experience always a reliable method, or is it sometimes reliable and sometimes not reliable? Also, if it is sometimes reliable and sometimes not reliable then how can we tell the difference between those experiences that are reliable and those that are not?
#219
keithprosser
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Edit: He responded while I was typing this.
yeah, but did he say yes or no !?  I have no idea.

I get the ultimate reality thing, I think.  What people think of as 'reality' has to come from somewhere; ie it has to have an underlying cause (nothing comes out of nothing).  That underlying cause is what mopac calls 'ultimate reality'.

I think his error is to insist that 'whatever it is that underpins ordinary reality' (which I will accept must exist) is the Christian God.   I think the 'ultmate reality'  - ie that which underpins ordinary reaity - exists but is nothing like the Christian God (whatever Mopac's dictionary says!).
#220
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@keithprosser
That is because you presume to know the Christian God when you really don't.  
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#221
Discipulus_Didicit
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@keithprosser
yeah, but did he say yes or no !?  I have no idea.

He corrected me on one point, that being that the last point of the summary in 207 should say accuracy rather than certainty, but did not point out any other actual flaws so presumably the rest was fine for him.

I get the ultimate reality thing, I think.  What people think of as 'reality' has to come from somewhere; ie it has to have an underlying cause (nothing comes out of nothing).  That underlying cause is what mopac calls 'ultimate reality'.

Pretty simple concept.

I think his error is to insist that 'whatever it is that underpins ordinary reality' (which I will accept must exist) is the Christian God.   I think the 'ultmate reality'  - ie that which underpins ordinary reaity - exists but is nothing like the Christian God (whatever Mopac's dictionary says!).

That is a point you should take up with him, and if he dances around the issue by simply claiming that you lack knowledge on the subject then hold fast to your inquiry until he has answered you as sufficiently as you would answer any question or dispute that he would have with you if he hypothetically happened to actually care about what you believe.
#222
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If personal experience was always or even commonly reliable, we wouldn't have the concept of prelest.

It is not simply experiential knowledge, it is epignosis. Experiential knowledge is a way that epignosis can be translated, but it is really also True Knowledge.




The Ultimate Reality is seen through The Most Perfect Image of The Truth, which is purified by The Spirit of Truth.


And so we experience God through The Trinity, which is worshipping God in Spirit and Truth.

The discipline of a Christian is obtaining and upkeeping an undefiled Nous. This is how we love God and even how we love as Christ loves.


Applicable concepts...

Theophany

Theoria

Theosis




#223
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@keithprosser
@Discipulus_Didicit
Christianity in essence is apodictic truth.

Western theology has lost this sense.

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#224
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@Mopac
You answered my first question the first time I asked, which is surprising, but you still have not answered the second.
#225
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@Mopac
NO one can have a RATIONAL anything with YOU...YOU are a hypnotized slave drone of some Church CULT
that has programmed what is left of your atrophied brain into a playback device....

There is no way YOU can think and reason without the Church CULT brainwashed response....you are a vegetable


You act like you can converse..but that ability has been neutralized...all YOU can do is VOMIT Church CULT
rhetoric...

This is why it is so critical that HUMANITY going forward rid this amazing planet of these PARASITE VAMPIRES
who cause the most death and destruction in human existence...MENTALLY-PHYSICALLY-ECONOMICALLY

The 3 middle East GOD inventions = JEW-JESUS-ALLAH are tools of OPPRESSION and CONTROL...their
GOD is a JOKE...a fabricated Comic Book character used as a scapegoat to commit atrocities AGAINST 
HUMANS and EARTH...

The Church-Mosque-Temple is a glorified CONCENTRATION CAMP where weak minded humans are 
programmed to wage WAR and CONFLICT against the other 2 Middle East GOD hoaxes...

JEW-JESUS-ALLAH  3 idiotic GOD constructs each designed to be against the other 2...= perpetual WAR

and WHO GAINS from this TRILOGY of GOD Hoaxes...the ELITE FEW and their Clowns in Halloween Glory
Gown costumes that play GOD....and force conflict against each other...

A brilliant strategy to keep the masses in FEAR-INTIMIDATION-VIOLENCE while a few party and celebrate
lavishly....as the hypnotized sheeple drones murder and denounce each other !  

The Middle East GODS are PARASITE VAMPIRE TOOLS....everyone loses....

Just ask one of these Parasite vampire PSYCHOPATHS which GOD is the real GOD ?

then watch them murder each other over it !   put the JEW-CHRISTIAN-ALLAH God Vampires in the arena
Each will try to murder the other two to prove he is RIGHT !     

FLUSH this JEW-JESUS-ALLAH GOD garbage down the TOILET where it belongs..where it came from...
#226
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@Discipulus_Didicit
In the context of what I am talking about, the question is actually answered by accepting that I am speaking of apodictic truths and not merely assertions that may or may not be true.

But generally speaking, there are many different ways to check one's experience to reality, and that is a pretty deep subject, eh?
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#227
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
In the context of what I am talking about, the question is actually answered by accepting that I am speaking of apodictic truths and not merely assertions that may or may not be true.

Yet you already know that what I mean is to ask you how you tell the difference between personal experiences that lead to incorrect conclusions and what you call "apodictic truth", that being the same as what everyone else calls "being correct"

So as you already know this is my question, please do answer it.

But generally speaking, there are many different ways to check one's experience to reality,

Indeed there are. The question here is asking which of these methods you employ in the case of the experiences that led you to your conclusion, and asking you to tell them to me.

You already knew that though, as I spoke simply and plainly and not in riddles.

and that is a pretty deep subject, eh?

Eh, not particularly.
#228
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@Discipulus_Didicit
what you call "apodictic truth", that being the same as what everyone else calls "being correct"
I think everyone else calls "apodictic truth"  "the bleedin' obvious".

wikipedia;
"Apodictic" or "apodeictic" (Ancient Greek: ἀποδεικτικός, "capable of demonstration") is an adjectival expression from Aristotelean logic that refers to propositions that are demonstrably, necessarily or self-evidently the case.

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#229
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@keithprosser
It seems be the case that there are those which speak words with the intention of communicating and others which speak words with the intention of appearing wise.
#230
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What could be more bleedin' obvious than what I am saying?

We don't see The Ultimate Reality directly, but through The Most Perfect Image of The Truth.

Or here is another way of looking at it.

The Ultimate Reality is God.

Believe that God means that. Until you do that, The Spirit of Truth is not in you to make it so. You are not believing that He is who He says He is.



And what else am I saying? If you want to see The Truth, purify the heart. Only a clean intellect can even come close to seeing the truth. An intellect defiled by vanities has no hope.

And as I said, and maintain. The great mystery behind Christianity is that it is Truth Worship. If you believe in The Truth, well, The Church will help you into Orthodoxy, that is, true worship or correct belief concerning so.


And everything I am saying should be evident. The issue here is really making the connection between what I am saying and Christianity, which unbelievers always think they have all figured out! Anything but that!


And admitting one is wrong and turning away from error is the very act of repentance. A Christian's life is one of repentance.














#231
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If I was trying to appear wise, I wouldn't be hanging around here! 




#232
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@Mopac
We don't see The Ultimate Reality directly, but through The Most Perfect Image of The Truth.


Describe the most perfect image of the truth.
#233
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@disgusted
Jesus Christ.

And even today you see people killing The Truth in order to justify themselves. And so in their hearts The Truth is killed by them, and buried in a tomb. But just as Jesus Christ rose from the dead, The Truth rises again. The Truth is etrrnal
#234
keithprosser
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@Mopac
And so in their hearts The Truth is killed by them, and buried in a tomb.
Pretty prose, but obviuosly you don't mean actual hearts, neither can truth be killed or put in a tomb.  What does it actually mean?  For verily your liver is but frozen and the Lie walks in its multitude, and rides in a hovercraft.

#235
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@Mopac
Jesus Christ.

And even today you see people killing The Truth in order to justify themselves. And so in their hearts The Truth is killed by them, and buried in a tomb. But just as Jesus Christ rose from the dead, The Truth rises again. The Truth is etrrnal


We don't see The Ultimate Reality directly, but through The Most Perfect Image of The Truth.

You must have missed this.

Describe the most perfect image of the truth.
You know! the one you see.

#236
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@keithprosser
Not even trying anymore, eh?
#237
keithprosser
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@Mopac
Not even trying anymore, eh?
You obstinacy has finally worn me down! 
You're not right - you're incorrigible.
#238
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@keithprosser
I would go to the grave enduring torments for my faith. You are correct in that trying to get me to commit apostasy is a futile endeavor. I am very secure.

I would like you to repent for the sake of your own soul. I don't know why you would want me to commit apostasy.

#239
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@Mopac
I don't know why you would want me to commit apostasy.
Because - like you - I worship truth.  One of us is wrong about what is true.

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#240
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
What could be more bleedin' obvious than what I am saying?

We don't see The Ultimate Reality directly, but through The Most Perfect Image of The Truth.

Or here is another way of looking at it.

The Ultimate Reality is God.

Believe that God means that. Until you do that, The Spirit of Truth is not in you to make it so. You are not believing that He is who He says He is.

Yet again you are not answering the question I asked, but instead a different one.

Behold, the questions you answered in the above quote are these: "How can we see god, and what is god?"

But are these the questions I asked? No, they are not. You know this.

Given that you are in the habit of doing this - and you do it quite often - there is no reason to wonder why someone that dislikes talking in circles might say that your manner of speaking wears them down.

Such is not the case with myself however, and instead of being led along on your tangent I shall repeat my question until it is either answered or openly refused. This is what I have done with my previous questions and each time you eventually gave in and gave a straight answer.

Therefore, here is my question again.

We have established the following facts in our discourse:

1) You believe that the Orthodox Christian theology is accurate in its details of the nature of God.

2) The reason you believe this is due to experiences which you do not wish to go into detail about except to say "They are personal" in other words, personal experiences.

3) You do care whether you are correct about whether or not Orthodox Christian theology is accurate.

4) Personal experiences - such as those you do not wish to discuss except to say that they are the reason for your theological conclusion - sometimes lead to accurate conclusions and sometimes lead to innaccurate conclusions.

All of these things have come from your mouth, not mine. My role has only been as the asker of questions and your role has been to give me your opinion as to the answers.

This brings us to the next question which I have asked now several times and you may or may not eventually answer, which is this:

How do you, Mopac, tell the difference between personal experiences which lead to accurate conclusions and those that lead to innaccurate conclusions? You say that some lead to innaccurate conclusions but clearly think that yours are not one of these, so what is the method which you use to know this?