Sell everything you have

Author: janesix

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#31
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@keithprosser
St. John Chrysostom is actually very good, he is considered by the church to be one of the greatest preachers who ever lived. "Chrystostom" means "golden mouthed".

His form of the liturgy is still the form that we practice today in many Orthodox Churches.

And fyi, Orthodoxy has a thriving monastic community, and being a monk necessarily means getting rid of all your things.



Besides, there are several examples of believers in the new testament who were financially well off. 





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#32
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@Mopac
I didn't realize you were finally answering my question about purifying the heart. So thanks for answering, although I didn't get it.
#33
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@janesix
Finally eh?


*sigh*





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#34
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@Mopac
O asked you several times
#35
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@janesix
You sure did.
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#36
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What is yourproblem. I thanked you for answering, I admitted i didn't realize you had answered. That's admitting to a mistake. What more do you want
#37
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@janesix
Don't mind me, just a momentary lapse of patience.

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#38
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@Mopac
Yeah I guess I was being impatient as well.my apologies
#39
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@Mopac
I used the word 'gnostic' because the earliest Christians - the ones contemporaneous with Jesus and immediatey after - believed they were in possion of special knowledge (ie 'gnosis') regarding the end of the world.  Even when Jesus died His followers were a small minority of Jews who still followed Judaism with the heretical additions about the person Jesus and the end of the current world order.

Much later 'gnosis' was redefined as referring to heresies against Christian doctrine - I obviously didn't mean that!   What i tried to do is highlight the cultish nature of Christianity at its origin.   It was the exclusivity of Christianity that made 'give to the poor' reasonable advice.
#40
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@keithprosser
That may make sense to to you, but it isn't true.






#41
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@keithprosser
Belief without proof. Doesn't really give you a leg up in argument. Fuckin troll.
#42
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@polly wally
Belief without proof is godism, bad luck witchy.

#43
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@disgusted
99% of what you 'know' are beliefs that you haven't personally experienced or verified.    Do you know the name of Obama's wife?  Did you ask her yourself or are you trusting what others have told you?

Even if she told you her name she could be lying.  In the end you have to make a judgement of what to believe.  I believe her name is Michelle because I judge that more likely than the existence of a conspiracy to conceal her name is Ethel.  
#44
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@janesix

"You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Context, context, context. 

Matthew 19:16-30
The Rich Young Ruler
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
The Disciples’ Reward
27 Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

Mark 10:20-22 (NASB)
20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

The teaching is one of allegiance, of who or what we put first. Although the rich young man lists a number of commands he does not list the one about idolatry. This young man had made an idol of money. 

And the lesson goes further than this. It goes to the true meaning of life, to know God by putting Him first. The Commandments this young man listed were relational to other human beings, yet the first four Commandments deal with our relationship with God. 

Exodus 20:3-8
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

What is an idol? The OT too often lists physical idols, but an idol is anything that you put in the place of God. The principle is that if you trust God He will look after your needs. 


Matthew 6:32-34 (NASB)
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34 “So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

#45
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@janesix


Who, then, is supposed to take care of my needs?
God! It is tough teaching but it goes deeper. Our life is fleeting. It goes fast. If you dedicate it on behalf of others, as Jesus did, God will look after you and supply you with your needs here on earth and greater rewards in heaven. I have seen this principle demonstrated by those who place others first. 


If we all choose to do this , we are all "the poor". Who will take care of the poor then?

Or rich for we are doing what really counts. Riches can be measured in a number of ways. It does not have to mean monetary gain. 

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#46
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@PGA2.0
You still need to eat.....
#47
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@janesix
You still need to eat.....
I don't see the Bible teaches that we should not work for our living but sponge off others. God understands we need to eat. We still have an obligation to look after ourselves. 

The teaching is that when you trust God He supplies your needs. I look at my life as a blessing from God. The NT also teaches that we should work for a living, and when I worked for a living I looked upon it as something God supplied me with (my work). He supplied my family with food. He still does. God holds my very life within His hands and knows the day that I will die. In the meantime, I have a pension and some money put aside for retirement. I have never starved. Jesus said we would always have the poor with us, so it is beyond our means to feed everyone, but when I see someone in need I can offer a hand. 

Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,

and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure;

For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;

For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.
For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.




#48
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@PGA2.0
God looks after the middle class white Amercan but does fuck all for the starving black babies in the Sudan. Good Gody.
#49
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@PGA2.0
I have a pension and some money put aside for retirement.
O ye of little faith!  Have you not heard:

Matt 6:34 Do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
I know - a cheap shot! :)

Financial prudence was not a priority for Jesus and the Gospel writers because they believed and taught 'the end of the world was nigh', where 'nigh' could be mere months or even just days away.  With that in mind such passages can have their plain and simple meaning.  The young man can safely give his wealth away because it's only for a short time.  
Sophisticted readings such as "The teaching is one of allegiance, of who or what we put first." are required only because the world didn't end then!  

;
#50
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@keithprosser
I don't think Jesus taught that the world was about to end. He did teach that Israel was about to face God's wrath and be wiped from the face of the earth. Which incidentally it was within approximately one generation of his death. 

The best way to understand what Jesus was talking about is to go to the OT. The Day of the Lord meant many things and referred to events either on one day or even over many years. Jesus clearly talked about the end of the temple and of Israel in accordance with the OT prophecies. We need to understand that for people in those times - the end of the nation or the end of a kingdom or the end of a dynasty very often meant the end of the world. When Israel went into captivity to Assyria it was considered both the day of the Lord and the end of the world. Prophets spoke - as though these nations were snuffed out - their lights out - and for those people in those communities it was exactly how it was. 

Jesus understood the prophecies in the same way. For him it was the end of the covenant between God and Israel. The reason - they had rejected the messiah and God's wrath was on them and their literal children. The stories of Jerusalem at that time AD 70 are pretty horrendous. Hence the end of Israel - was to all intents the end of the world. 

I think Paul refers to this on many occasions - but like many of the other prophets, he also referred to the last day and final judgement as well. 

This is quite traditional teaching - and is common probably more so within liberal quarters - who take an early view of Revelation - which seems to so accurate in relation to its revelation that they say it was written immediately after it. 

#51
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@janesix
"You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Who, then, is supposed to take care of my needs?

If we all choose to do this , we are all "the poor". Who will take care of the poor then?


This was not a general command to all; but a specific one to the rich man. It was intended to make the man realise that his riches had become an idol to him - and that he needed to get rid of it and prioritise God and Jesus over this idol. 

#52
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@Tradesecret
How do you know that's what he meant? Your opinion is now the word of your god, wow you are important.
#53
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I don't think Jesus taught that the world was about to end. He did teach that Israel was about to face God's wrath and be wiped from the face of the earth. Which incidentally it was within approximately one generation of his death. 
I shouldn't have said 'the world was about to end' because what was anticipated was massive upheaval, not termination.  I get the impresion that the early church had not settled on an official eschatology, leaving the text obscure and contradictory.  
I thoroughly agree the teaching was of an imminent destruction, to be succeededby a new order.   I think that new order was supposed to be here on earth  and it would be a 'nicer' version of ordinary life, as much as it was fleshed out in any detail at all in the text.
#54
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@keithprosser
I have a pension and some money put aside for retirement.
O ye of little faith!  Have you not heard:
I see everything I have as from God. 


Matt 6:34 Do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
I know - a cheap shot! :)

Financial prudence was not a priority for Jesus and the Gospel writers because they believed and taught 'the end of the world was nigh', where 'nigh' could be mere months or even just days away.  With that in mind such passages can have their plain and simple meaning.  The young man can safely give his wealth away because it's only for a short time.   
Sophisticted readings such as "The teaching is one of allegiance, of who or what we put first." are required only because the world didn't end then!  
Jesus and the gospel writers taught never taught the "end of the world" was near, just the end of the Mosaic covenant age. The Greek word for world
was kosmos, not anion.


GRK: συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος 
NAS: and of the end of the age?
KJV: and of the end of the world?
INT: the completion of the age

The KJV wrongly translates the verse in a number of verses. 
 
Please see point three in the link that follows...3. As the Jews distinguished הַזֶּה הָעולָם the time before the Messiah, and הַבָּא הַעולָם, the time after the advent of the Messiah (cf. Riehm, Lehrb. d. Hebraerbr., p. 204ff; (Schürer, § 29, 9)), so most of the N. T. writers distinguish ὁ αἰών οὗτος this age (also simply ὁ αἰών, Matthew 13:22; Mark 4:19 G L T Tr WH; ὁ ἐνεστὼς αἰών, Galatians 1:4; ὁ νῦν αἰών, 1 Timothy 6:17; (2 Timothy 4:10); Titus 2:12), the time before the appointed return or truly Messianic advent of Christ (i. e., the παρουσία, which see), the period of instability, weakness, impiety, wickedness, calamity, misery — and αἰών μέλλων the future age...

 

Jesus gave a rough idea to His disciples of when the end of the age would be and He warned those who doubted of the judgment that was coming and it was within their generation ("this generation") which was a period of 40 years. The disciples would not know the day or hour of His coming in judgment on Isreal but they would know when the "day" or time was close by the signs He gave them to watch for. 

Sophisticted readings such as "The teaching is one of allegiance, of who or what we put first." are required only because the world didn't end then!  

Their world, the world of the Mosaic Covenant and their sacrificial system and temple worship ended within the generation. After their long relationship with God Jesus came to announce a new and better covenant for all those who would believe, thus the Old Covenant would have to be removed.

The word went out first to the Jew because Jesus came to His own before the Gospel went out into all the world. His message was one of both hope and judgment for them. That is why the one who announced His coming (John the Baptist) could say, "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The reason Jesus came to His own first was to bring salvation to those waiting for Him and to bring judgment for those who had turned against God and would not repent. 

#55
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@Tradesecret
"This was not a general command to all; but a specific one to the rich man. It was intended to make the man realise that his riches had become an idol to him - and that he needed to get rid of it and prioritise God and Jesus over this idol.
Unfortuntely for that interpretation Jesus clarifies it himself thus:

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Note he doesn't say 'someone who is greedy', nor 'someone who is avaricious', nor 'someone who is miserly' - he says 'someone who is rich'.

#56
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@keithprosser
And what follows is...


"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."


But you know, if you want to give away all your things in pursuit of God, Orthodoxy has an ancient and rich monastic tradition.


#57
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@janesix
JESUS and ALLAH ?  Middle East neighbors...each with a billion +++ HYPNOTIZED sheeple slave drones who do all the filthy dirty work their PARASITE VAMPIRE clowns in Halloween glory Gowns demand of them....

Both of these invented GOD HOAXES are spun from the JEW GOD of Moses playbook...the ROMANS invented Jesus and use him as some pathetic scapegoat to assimilate truly STUPID humans into slavery and servitude of the CHURCH CULT agenda....

Same goes for The ALLAH God psychopaths...who declare ALLAH as the only GOD of GODS...all must convert and OBEY or DIE !  since ALLAH came about 600 years after the JESUS hoax....the Muslims use the same playbook as the Roman Church---FEAR-OPPRESSION-VIOLENCE to 
ravage-rape-murder-assimilate new slaves of their CULT !   everyone LOSES = "END of TIMES"  it's all a stupid GAME these Church and Mosque
Parasite VAMPIRES play for POWER and CONTROL

NONE of these idiot CHRISTIANS or MUSLIMS believes any of their GOD GARBAGE...they all know it's a HOAX....JESUS and ALLAH become the
Santa Claus for these dumbed down HYPNOTIZED and BRAINWASHED fools.....they play the GAME for their EGO...

What have YOU...the smart NON JESUS ...NON ALLAH person ever got..from some Bible/Koran-Church/Mosque-Dogma VOMITING IMBECILE  
that was or is truly useful and worthy of consideration ?   Z E R O    N O T H I N G.....just a whole lot of Religious VOMIT they can't wait to throw 
up and drown YOU in....

#58
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@keithprosser
Poor keith is getting pretty  paranoid  now. The world is out to lie about the former first lady.
#59
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@WisdomofAges
Once again, I must ask you... 

Do you ever say anything that isn't just rhetoric?

#60
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@keithprosser
I don't believe in Jesus' divinity because I do believe in materialistic universe.  I can't prove the universe is materialistic, but I judge the evidence good enough to make that choice.   
I believe Jesus was a real person because it seems to me more likely the seed of Christianity was a person rather than a total fiction.  I think it's quite likely a human Jesus preached and taught as per the Gospels in Judea 2000 years ago, but I also think the virgin birth, miracles and resurrection are fictional additions.
I repeat - I can't prove anything.  I have made a judgement based on the evidence I am aware of.   Discussing that evidence make this very long post indeed!
Historical The Jesus =/= gods.

Historical Joseph Smith =/= The Angel Moroni.

Historical Lafayette Ronald Hubbard =/= Xenu