Hell Diary DP 1

Author: WyIted

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Greyparrot
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@ILikePie5
Since you townread pie, I will also town read pie.
Mharman
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@Vader
 I dont see how someone can be suspicious about Banana, but have absolutely nothing to say about anything else.
I realize I didn’t word this clearly. When I say “anything else” I mean anything else related to the other claims- Greyparrot, Vader, Pie.

Mharman
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Like seriously, how can one not be suspicious of Pie, Vader, or Lunatic, but be suspicious of Banana?
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Anyways, due to Barney’s earlier misunderstanding of how Vader’s claimed role works, I don’t think he can be in a scum team with Vader. Doesn’t exonerate him, but if one is proven scum the other is probably proven town by proxy.
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@Mharman

Thanks for the detailed response. Your points are pretty valid and I thank you for the justification and thought process. Just gonna respond to some points that I think should be addressed 


The reason why I asked that question is I don’t trust your claim. Not yet.
This is fair. I don't suspect anyone to trust the claim quite yet

From a game design standpoint, a role that requires one to get a few votes on themselves sounds like a role that gives the player an incentive to act a little suspicious, but not enough to get lynched. I feel like this type of role is a bit scummy; a type of role that encourages mafia to take some risk to gain a power. I get the sense there was an oversight on Wylted’s part- I don’t think he thought of how the player could just ask people to vote for him.
Yeah I totally agree. When I asked for clarification on the role he even told me that thinking back he should've probably changed the mechanics so it's not as easy to gain a power. He actually said word for word what you said in the PM

 but I suppose that, to lesser degree, I might let you cook. For now.
I'm kind of taking a ballsy take claiming I can role confirm myself because now I'm likely to have a target on my back. I am also going to reiterate that assuming that there isn't some crazy bullshit that scum has that can fuck this up, or even if I somehow get RB'd (which could be a possibility considering I have put an open target on my back), it would likely imply I'm town unless you think there is some crazy batshit role that Wylted made up and even then, for balancing reasons, I could not see that happening at all.

This is what is tough about playing in these crazy games is because I have no way into knowing what crazy shit there could be. That's why I was heavy role confirmation and less on affil (if even at all)

And yet, her claim of having a long PM where she didn’t read all of it (probably because she didn’t need to read the entire thing to understand her role and justification) is the claim that garnered the most suspicion from others. I dont see how someone can be suspicious about Banana, but have absolutely nothing to say about anything else.
This is true and I think I'd agree here. I think the banana scum reads are a bit out of proportion and I think even if you look at Banana's style of play from their town games, I sense they are acting similiar to what they would do. So I agree with you on this point

==============================
Response puts a lot of perspective into your reasoning, but then again I still have a slight FoS. I get your justifications and I think you justifying that in a long sentence form makes me more inclined to lower my scum read, but still I just can't shake going at finding the roles so early on and trying to get as much info as possible.

I have to reread Pie for some behavioral tells
Vader
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you said in the message* #155
Lunatic
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@Mharman
Like seriously, how can one not be suspicious of Pie, Vader, or Lunatic, but be suspicious of Banana?
Because I cannot fathom a townie not doing the most basic and easy thing they can do to help town by reading their OWN role pm. She’s provided herself the perfect scapegoat for pressure by not being able to provide information and justification for her role by being “lazy” and not reading her PM.
ILikePie5
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@Mharman
Like seriously, how can one not be suspicious of Pie, Vader, or Lunatic, but be suspicious of Banana?
I haven’t claimed anything yet. I just said I have some information that I will give when I see fit or at the end of the DP.

Vader is role confirmable, so if he’s scum, behavior is our only motive, and I don’t see anything behavior related from him.

I happen to agree with Luna about Banana. The logic Banana used is not there. You’re “lazy” so you didn’t read your full PM, but you somehow know it’s about Isreal/Hamas, and is irrelevant? If anything, you read it for your justification
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@ILikePie5
I haven’t claimed anything yet. I just said I have some information that I will give when I see fit or at the end of the DP.
I’m counting that as a claim. Not in the traditional sense of the word, just that you have claimed to know something, and we have to figure out whether we can believe you or not.
Mharman
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
and with regards to Banana, I don’t think she needs to read the entirety of her PM to extract the character, role and justification. Mine were all given at the start before Wylted went on a much shorter tangent. I read all mine, but mine was probably nowhere near as long as hers.

Yes, it is probably better if Banana reads the whole thing, but I see why she would not read all that, even if it’s not optimal and lazy of her. 

I imagine she just skimmed it quickly and that’s how she knows it’s about Israel vs Hamas.
Mharman
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To put it simply, I don’t think Banana is the tryhard gamer type like we are.
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@ILikePie5
Him giving reads right away is kinda odd. I don’t think he’s ever done that before. I distinctly remember me needing to tell him to give reads cause he “town read” everyonez

I don’t like the idea of punishing him for trying to get good at the game.

I will admit however, that his reads have crossed my mind. Ya know how I find it weird how people believed some claims a little to quick? I felt Owen was a little quick as well. The defense of Banana is good and all, but even I had a slight hesitation.

The thing is, the point Owen did raise about Banana was a point I had been thinking about at the time. Until Banana mentioned her PM contained a tangent about Israel vs Hamas, the debate in my mind was about whether or not Banana felt the need to overshare for town cred (banking on a defense like Owen’s) or if it was just simply mentioning it as a complaint about the long PM. I also wondered if she was looking for other people with long PMs while operating on some flawed theory.

All this to say: Until she mentioned Israel-Hamas, I was cautious about the claim as well, whereas Owen believed it from the get go.

the thing is, what Owen said is precisely one of the points in my mind in that debate and I can see Owen’s thought process here. I wouldn’t surprised if scum split themselves on a sus, but I don’t think Owen’s take, albeit a little quick, was that egregious. There might be a little something there, but Owen’s reasoning is not the least logical thing I’ve seen this DP

Lunatic
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@Mharman
Appreciate your feedback but i'd appreciate to hear banana's own defense for herself. 
Mharman
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@Lunatic
Fair
ILikePie5
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@Mharman
I’m counting that as a claim. Not in the traditional sense of the word, just that you have claimed to know something, and we have to figure out whether we can believe you or not.
That’s a given, but yes. You can choose to believe me or not
ILikePie5
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@Mharman
and with regards to Banana, I don’t think she needs to read the entirety of her PM to extract the character, role and justification. Mine were all given at the start before Wylted went on a much shorter tangent. I read all mine, but mine was probably nowhere near as long as hers.

Yes, it is probably better if Banana reads the whole thing, but I see why she would not read all that, even if it’s not optimal and lazy of her. 

I imagine she just skimmed it quickly and that’s how she knows it’s about Israel vs Hamas.
Then why not say you skimmed it? Theres a difference between reading it, not reading it, and skimming it. The fact that she’s trying to hide that shows she has something to hide
Mharman
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@ILikePie5
This is just semantics on what counts as “reading.” Skimming might technically be reading, but are you really reading it if all you did was skim?

My point here is that you might not be operating with the same definition she is. I think the big picture is that she saw a bunch  of paragraphs, and didn’t think it was worth the effort.
ILikePie5
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@Mharman
I don’t like the idea of punishing him for trying to get good at the game.
Why would it be punishment? Better question is: how do you know it’s punishment? Behavior won us the game last game. Everyone townread Casey at the beginning.

I will admit however, that his reads have crossed my mind. Ya know how I find it weird how people believed some claims a little to quick? I felt Owen was a little quick as well. The defense of Banana is good and all, but even I had a slight hesitation.
Why is the defense of Banana good?

The thing is, the point Owen did raise about Banana was a point I had been thinking about at the time. Until Banana mentioned her PM contained a tangent about Israel vs Hamas, the debate in my mind was about whether or not Banana felt the need to overshare for town cred (banking on a defense like Owen’s) or if it was just simply mentioning it as a complaint about the long PM. I also wondered if she was looking for other people with long PMs while operating on some flawed theory.

All this to say: Until she mentioned Israel-Hamas, I was cautious about the claim as well, whereas Owen believed it from the get go.

the thing is, what Owen said is precisely one of the points in my mind in that debate and I can see Owen’s thought process here. I wouldn’t surprised if scum split themselves on a sus, but I don’t think Owen’s take, albeit a little quick, was that egregious. There might be a little something there, but Owen’s reasoning is not the least logical thing I’ve seen this DP
I don’t know what you’re trying to say? Do you sus Owen or not?
ILikePie5
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@Mharman
My point here is that you might not be operating with the same definition she is. I think the big picture is that she saw a bunch  of paragraphs, and didn’t think it was worth the effort.
I disagree with that. She’s well aware that justification matters. 
Mharman
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@ILikePie5
I think his point about Banana is logical because I also thought about it, but I also think he was quick and didn’t wait for more info to give a read.

I would say I’m null. I think being quick would make him look a little scummy, but that gets nullified by the fact the point he made is completely logical.

I say the defense of Banana is good because I agree with it.
Mharman
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@ILikePie5
Why would it be punishment? Better question is: how do you know it’s punishment? Behavior won us the game last game. Everyone townread Casey at the beginning.
I wouldn’t say I know it’s a punishment for sure, but if he’s town and we sus him off that, we essentially just sussed him for trying to improve at reading others. And that is an idea I’m not too keen on. Point is, I would want to see more that’s off about him before I have any sus on him. Yeah behavior analysis wins games, but not every abnormal behavior (compared to previous games) is scummy.
Mharman
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I think when a noob learns to play mafia, their gameplay goes through stages of development. Stage 1 is “I don’t know how to read people, someone help” and the next stage  is where they give reads that can sometimes be or hasty or worse faulty because they don’t consider enough angles.
Mharman
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all in all, I’d just need more evidence from other behaviors of Owen before I conclude he’s buddying Banana here.
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I think this whole discussion on Banana is silly. Maybe she only skimmed her Wylted essay and deemed it too nonsensical and TL;DR'd it. My PM has my role, followed by something only tangentially related.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
Mharman's analysis comes off as very towny to me. Solid town read on Mharman.

I don't like Pie and Luna's reasoning for sussing Banana. I think it was obvious that she didn't read the entire PM because it wasn't necessary to understand the justification for her role. Pie in particular is reminding me of DP1 of UPick Mafia, where he excoriated Savant for making a mistake as town. Granted, the way Savant used his role was stupid, but the fact that he even thought confirming himself as a Vote Thief would be a good move was evidence of a townie thought process, not a scummy one. Here, the supposedly scummy behavior is far more minor and unimportant, but Pie and Luna are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, and I don't like it one bit. I think it might be a good idea to push one of them for a claim.

VTL Pie 
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@Casey_Risk
I agree with your logic, but isn't Pie always crazy aggressive?
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@Owen_T
I agree with your logic, but isn't Pie always crazy aggressive?
He tends to be somewhat aggressive in general, but his logic is better when he is town. His reasoning for wanting to lynch Moozer during DP1 of Mayday Mafia was similarly specious. That's what's setting off alarm bells for me. 
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@ILikePie5
Him giving reads right away is kinda odd. I don’t think he’s ever done that before. I distinctly remember me needing to tell him to give reads cause he “town read” everyonez
As Mharman mentioned, I took a little break from mafia. This is because I was doing terribly at the game. (No explanation needed)  I had a bit of extra time so I decided to give it another swing and make myself a little bit more tolerable of a player instead of just sitting there and doing nothing.

Is that the only reason you find me suspicious?

Mharman
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@ILikePie5
I disagree with that. She’s well aware that justification matters. 
Btw with the way my PM is structured, the justification was given before Wylted’s tangent, and think it’s a given that Banana’s PM followed this structure.

If yours isnt structured in such a way, that would be ringing alarm bells for me.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@Casey_Risk
I’d prefer Lunatic over Pie but I’m very suspicious on both so I’m willing to go with it. Honestly why not both?

I know Pie says he’s got info that could trip up scum, but at this point with my concerns on him it’s not worth it. Some parts of his thought process feel natural, but the read on Banana is egregious and some of the points feels forced. Not a fan of the semantics. Plus if he’s town id rather have the his information anyway. If he’s willing to give the info later this DP, I can only conclude if he’s town he’s withholding it for what would be a small min-max on an off-chance scum screws up in some vague way, which I’d be willing to give up.

VTL Pie