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@Greyparrot
You don't think everything you're written above is plainly idiotic?
How Class Warfare Fails Game Theory
Posts
Total:
166
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@cristo71
@Savant
@WyIted
Your dumb shell game amounts to:The rich actually want to be forced to pay a higher wage.This is somehow exactly what they wanted all along and will somehow make the poor poorer.Only solution is to do nothing. Let the rich have their way. Stay poor.But wait... oh no, what if the rich just increase wages themselves then? Does that mean we cannot avoid this terrible trap?Oh no they're paying me more money! This is the disastrous situation GP warned me about! Somehow I'm ruined!Who fucking conned this dude into believing that enforcing higher salaries is a trap by rich people? How did you do that?
You three think this shit makes any fucking sense? Curious for your conservative opinions here.
FLRW, WyIted and Greyparrot are the smartest people on this site, even if I disagree with them on some things.
who said you couldn't steal from the rich and then give it to the poor? That's charity too.
The rich are better at stealing from the poor.
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@badger
It's idiotic to think a plan that millionaires support is superior than simply providing cash in hand to poor people.
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@Greyparrot
It's idiotic to think a plan that millionaires support is superior than simply providing cash in hand to poor people.
Go on walk me through it. No ChatGPT.
Corporations actually want to be forced to pay more money. Somehow this lets them steal more of the poor people's money.
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@badger
This has a lot to do with what Wylted explained to you about how all the mom and pop businesses were run underground because of competition regulations pushed by millionaire corporations.
When the government forces the mom and pop stores to raise prices, most of them will go bankrupt. This is exactly why millionaires support those kinds of regulations. Wyted already explained that aspect very well, so I am not going to rehash his points. It's the poor business owners that suffer because they live on tight margins. The rich can afford it. And when the competition is gone, they can charge whatever they want, and send a little to their politician's coffer to keep it that way.
In California, the raise in the minimum wage for fast-food workers from $16 to $20 was signed into law by Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) on September 28, 2023, and went into effect on April 1, 2024. The law applies to restaurants, coffee shops, and juice bars with at least 60 locations nationwide. E.g., McDonald’s, Wendy’s, Jersey Mike’s, Del Taco, and Pizza Hut.
That wage hike, which raised the cost of labor, killed 6,166 fast-food jobs between September 2023 and June 2024, reported the Employment Policies Institute in late December 2024. Counting the whole year since the law was signed—September 2023–2024—there were at least 9,600 job losses (and up to 19,300), reported Edgeworth Economics in late November 2024.
The Employment Policies Institute further reported that between September 2023 and June 2024 “total private sector fast-food employment nationwide grew 1.6 percent” but in California it declined 1.1 percent. (that is a 2.7 point spread over one year!)
Most anyone with a journeyman knowledge of how this works understands why millionaires support it. Destroying jobs means destroying the competition.
You want to help the poor? Then give them money. Don't give them pink slips and higher costs of living....
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@Greyparrot
This has a lot to do with what Wylted explained to you about how all the mom and pop businesses were run underground because of competition regulations pushed by millionaire corporations.When the government forces the mom and pop stores to raise prices, most of them will go bankrupt. This is exactly why millionaires support those kinds of regulations. Wyted already explained that aspect very well, so I am not going to rehash his points. It's the poor business owners that suffer because they live on tight margins. The rich can afford it. And when the competition is gone, they can charge whatever they want, and send a little to their politician's coffer to keep it that way.
None of this was your original point. Sucking up to Wylted now because I tagged him about your bullshit. Why are you so shamelessly forcing this retarded opinion?
It also doesn't hold weight as a point. First of all, if a business can't pay a living wage, it has no business being a business. What good is it for the economy? It creates jobs that nobody can live on?
Second, but here I thought big business was crushing small businesses by undercutting them. They got so many tricks up their sleeves, eh? Overcutting them too, who knew that was a thing. But then why do regulations have to be the catalyst here? Why don't big businesses just pay higher salaries themselves? Doesn't that achieve the same result? Drives up the cost of living, right? Makes the mom and pops wages unlivable? What else you gonna pull out your ass?
The only way to tackle wealth inequality is pulling money back into the lower classes via higher wages. Literally the only way.
Employment Policies Institute - funded by big money interests that oppose minimum wage.
Just funny, man.
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@badger
Literally the only way.
Lol, but it really isn't. There's a ton of workable redistribution policies that can take money directly from the rich and into the hands of the poor. No tricks, no gimmicks.
I'm gonna go jump into bed with my beautiful girlfriend now.
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@Greyparrot
Raising the minimum wage takes spending money from employers. That mitigates the effect on demand.The inflated prices that the poor have to pay for basic needs is what mitigates the demand.
I'm talking about the demand curve itself, not the quantity demanded.
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@badger
I have been ignoring any post of grey parrots where he doesn't tag me but sure I will get context and analyze his opinion
Give me a bit
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@Greyparrot
I read this thread out of morbid curiosity to see just how impervious to logic and reason you are, and it's over the top.
You do realize you are talking about 1.1% the workforce, that's the percentage of workers that are earning minimum wage or less.
All this drama about how paying a living wage to the bottom 1% will somehow explode prices, upend the global economy, and only the rich benefit is just nonsense, if a percent of workers have a living wage it will have negligible effect on prices. It's one percent, and it's the 1 percent that spends the least, they represent about a tenth of a percent of total demand, if the demand for eggs goes up a tenth of a percent, prices don't skyrocket, it just means a few more people can afford breakfast.
You really need to get a grip, this MAGA mentality has just obliterated your capacity to reason, not everything is a conspiracy, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
You got your economics training at Trump University, right?
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@badger
It's a classic shell game. When the cost of living rises due to wage hikes, the rich producers—whether they’re large corporations or wealthy investors—stand to gain disproportionately. They will pass the increased costs down to consumers through higher prices, and because they hold the power in the marketplace, they will maintain their margins while inflating the cost of living. Meanwhile, the workers who the minimum wage hikes are supposed to help end up in the same place, with their purchasing power eroded by rising price. Overpriced dirt.
I don't buy the minimum wage increases causes prices to rise necessarily. some businesses have really tight profit margins and it certainly does cost increases there. Stuff like restaurants, but since the minimum wage for waitresses is like $4 an hour due to tipping the effect is minimized for diners. I oppose minimum wage hikes personally but I also try to support things that would help increase wages that employers typically fight back against. For example I think in the early part of covid19 there was a time where employers were struggling to get workers and pay higher wages and they fought against this by running skeleton crews and blaming their former workers for not showing up instead of hiring new workers at higher rates. Many of these same businesses took covid19 loans from the government which is also a type of welfare. I just thought we should all recognize this as employers crying about having to finally pay a fair wage and we should just name them and shame them and not give them any outs just let them suffer if they won't raise wages. Their competitors would be rewarded by crossing that picket line sooner. It was a type of labor strike.
It's essentially the same thing when you see companies say there is a nursing shortage or a tech shortage or a truck driver shortage and petition for laws to bring in more competition in those fields. Whenever companies have a labor shortage than it's always them really saying "I don't like paying these people a fair wage so daddy government please help". We just need to as voters make sure the government doesn't play their game. For example recently employers cried about truck drivers making too much so they begged the government to lower the truck driving age to 18" As we will see soon this will make it harder for truck drivers to make more than they do now.
This is long winded but my point is that raising the minimum wage I wouldn't expect to cause much inflation, but I do agree it will effect unemployment. Liberals would argue that the people helped would far outnumber the people hurt by these policies but normally also admit some increase in unemployment. The last I looked economists were recommending a $15 minimum wage. Nobody not even 16 year olds should be accepting a job that pays less than that anyway. Maybe there would be some movement in prices.
The real kicker is that the wealth generated by this process often doesn't stay in the local economy. Large corporations and wealthy individuals are fluid and have the ability to export that capital out of state, or even out of the country, where it will be invested in places with either lower costs or where the value of money is greater. This means the local economy gets stripped of wealth, while those at the top keep reaping the benefits of inflated prices and exported profits. It's how urban decay has happened in every crony city in Ameirca, creating vast areas of slums and forgotten people.
I agree that certain companies will export labor to make up for minimum wage hikes. I do like Trump's solution of punishing this behavior with tarrifs. if we pay americans more and you think you can escape this tax by moving overseas and harming american workers than adding a penalty imported goods to disincentivize this sort of behavior is important. You are likely getting inferior labor outside of the United States as well so your business will not benefit from lowering costs and leaving. If they move to a place where its virtually slave labor like with some Chinese products we shouldn't even allow that stuff to enter the country. I am okay with some measures that increase costs if it ends slave labor and punishes businesses who hurt the american worker.
And while all this is going on, the working class gets stuck footing the bill. They're stuck with the higher prices for the same basic stuff, but hey will never see the same kind of benefit that the wealthy do from the increased prices. To add insult to injury, it's a wealth transfer from the bottom to the top, disguised as a well-intentioned effort to lift the poor out of poverty, when in reality, it often keeps them in the same place, or worse. The minimum wage cities speak for themselves, just take a drive through the slums and look at the prices everywhere.
My main concern would be harm to mom and pop businesses that are effected. Any minimum wage increase should be accompanied by some sort of exceptions in the law.
There's ways to provide relief and welfare for the poorest, but this surely isn't it. If the rich support it, you know it's a bad idea.
You can find rich people on both sides of any issue. This is a poor argument.
in summary I would disagree that minimum wage increases would effect most prices the way GP thinks they will. I think it will have some effect on unemployment rates, so if most poor people are willing to live with that risk and they clearly are in places like Seattle than they should have the right to create that policy and deal with the consequences both good and bad.
My biggest sympathy would be for small business owners who I think are essential at keeping big businesses in check to some degree. SO I would like to see exceptions for mom and pop shops.
Now for your response to his.
Your dumb shell game amounts to:The rich actually want to be forced to pay a higher wage.This is somehow exactly what they wanted all along and will somehow make the poor poorer.Only solution is to do nothing. Let the rich have their way. Stay poor.But wait... oh no, what if the rich just increase wages themselves then? Does that mean we cannot avoid this terrible trap?Oh no they're paying me more money! This is the disastrous situation GP warned me about! Somehow I'm ruined!Who fucking conned this dude into believing that enforcing higher salaries is a trap by rich people? How did you do that?
Yes your criticism of his logic is good. If minimum wage increases really help businesses than they would be increasing their wages. I am going to college and amazon is paying for it. I took a pay cut to work at Amazon so they would do stuff like pay for college. They pay significantly above minimum wage. I am not a manager here or anything and I make $23 an hour in an area were other unskilled labor would normally make around $12-$15 . They also pay for college which amounts to another $12,000 on top of that salary and they match about 5% of my contributions to 401k so whatever the hell 5% of my salary is you can add that on top of my base salary. Also I take an extra 20 hours a week which are paid at around $31.50 an hour. Amazon is currently the cheapest place to get stuff online. If you order anything online it is cheaper on Amazon and you are probably getting it faster and with a better return policy. SO no paying people a fair wage does not have to harm your business.
Maybe the rich people who support increases in minimum wage, run businesses where they pay well above minimum wage and know the impacts won't harm businesses as much as many business owners think they will.
I also think you are debating a person who isn't giving his real premises. My guess is the real argument that GP has but fails to give is as follows.
premise 1- Government only exists to protect private contracts
Premise 2- A minimum wage increase interferes with the voluntary right to set contracts between 2 people
conclusion- The government is overstepping their authority by increasing minimum wage or in fact having a minimum wage at all
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@WyIted
I also think you are debating a person who isn't giving his real premises. My guess is the real argument that GP has but fails to give is as follows.premise 1- Government only exists to protect private contractsPremise 2- A minimum wage increase interferes with the voluntary right to set contracts between 2 peopleconclusion- The government is overstepping their authority by increasing minimum wage or in fact having a minimum wage at all
GP is a hard-line racist troll. He just gathers up every other dumb republican argument as he goes along. I guess minimum wage and redistribution looks too close to reparations or something like that.
What do you think of your own argument here? What about enforcing insulin price caps? The point of government is to bolster the individual -- it is by the people, for the people. It allows us to negotiate from a position of strength. The price of insulin is high because frail, desperate humans are left to negotiate alone. The same applies to the minimum wage. We must not let the most desperate of us set the price for us all.
GP's only semblance of a point was big business moving operations overseas and for that we must all just accept what they want to pay us. Which is the most pathetic argument there ever was.
I read this thread out of morbid curiosity to see just how impervious to logic and reason you are, and it's over the top.
He's sickening. A real piece of shit human being.
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@WyIted
- A living wage is $28.72 for one single person.
and if you look up an article for 10 years ago, the minimum wage in Cali was set at around 12 dollars and the cost of living was around 18.50...
This is the shell game I am talking about.
Whatever you set it to, it will never be enough, because it's not true welfare, where you take wealth directly from the rich and give it to the poor.
There's too many ways for rich people to take advantage of wage regulations.
So do that too. It's a band-aid fix, but I'll take it. If you want to levy it as a punishment on corporations for paying unfair wages I'll take it.
But what you want to arrive at is paid fair wages.
This is the shell game I am talking about.
Everyone in this thread thinks you're a dumb cunt.
How stupid do you have to be to think that forcing the rich elite to pay more benefits only the rich elite? Why are you clinging on to this retarded fucking idea?
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@Greyparrot
There's too many ways for rich people to take advantage of wage regulations.
It does increase the cost of running a buisness, which reduces number of buisnesses. They dont want for government to simply give money to the poor and help them, which is interesting. Why would someone who wants to help the poor oppose direct help to the poor from the government?
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@badger
I posted some of my thoughts in post 66. When I have seen business owners asked about minimum wage increases, they usually have responded with a variation of these three things:
- “Depending on the size of the increase, I might have to raise prices a bit.”
-“I might need to increase my use of automation and reduce my staffing.”
-“I already pay higher than the minimum, so I expect the effects to be negligible.”
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@cristo71
I posted some of my thoughts in post 66. When I have seen business owners asked about minimum wage increases, they usually have responded with a variation of these three things:- “Depending on the size of the increase, I might have to raise prices a bit.”-“I might need to increase my use of automation and reduce my staffing.”-“I already pay higher than the minimum, so I expect the effects to be negligible.”
If a minimum wage is not forcing employers to take a pay cut, there is no point. Increasing prices needs to be discouraged/punished. You get this right? The point of a minimum wage is to pull wealth back into the lower classes.
-“I might need to increase my use of automation and reduce my staffing.”
This recourse also ends in economic collapse. If nobody is paying anyone, nobody is buying anything. I'll grant it's a tricky issue. It's something of an analog for the prisoner's dilemma, race to the bottom sort of situation. I'm not sure where this all ends up. But what I am sure of in the meantime is that everything that can be done must be done to ensure wealth stays in the middle class.
Not really race to the bottom, not sure what you'd call it tbh. But a producer is shooting himself in his own foot where he is creating an economy where less and less people are paid where it is these people that would purchase his product.
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@badger
What do you think of your own argument here? What about enforcing insulin price caps? The point of government is to bolster the individual -- it is by the people, for the people. It allows us to negotiate from a position of strength
Given that the FDA has created a monopoly by making it cost a billion to bring a drug to market, it's probably ethical to cap prices. I think you really have to be scared to do so though and you should be very reluctant to.
I believe that if you really want to give people a place of strength to get the best prices you open the market up by requiring less to being drugs to market. It has to be cheaper to bring new drugs to market because you want to incentivize the R&D departments of drug companies .
You also i think need to drop these patents that hold the drug hostage for way too long. Allow more competition.
This is going to allow insurance providers to negotiate better prices.
I have seen some price caps in socialists or communist nations destroy industries and start a type of death spiral where you are forcing businesses to operate at a loss, which drives them away.
Centrally planned economies just don't work well.
I will say that welfare is a rich people problem along with a poor people problem.
Right now the FDA is a type of corporate welfare for billion dollar corporations given that only a few companies can pay the toll to bring a new drug to market. Given that these companies through lobbying and fiddling with regulatory agencies have created a toll to destroy competition than it's the right of a government to impose these prices caps. Also the government should be very cautious when doing so because of the death spiral and they should also take measures to lower the toll to bring a drug to market.
Badger, if you developed a cure for cancer tomorrow. You couldn't take it to market. You would have to go to a billion dollar corporation and share your cure with them, where they would only pay you a few million and would take about 10 years to bring that drug to market to start saving lives.
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@badger
If a minimum wage is not forcing employers to take a pay cut, there is no point. Increasing prices needs to be discouraged/punished. You get this right? The point of a minimum wage is to pull wealth back into the lower classes.
This is why the working class cannot minimum wage itself into prosperity. Price controls lead to inadequate supply. Minimum wage jobs are not the stuff careers are made of and are meant to be entry level and for youths. The middle class depends upon industrialization, education, unionization, and most importantly, societal sources of wealth creation, which would be access to resources and intellectual property.
This recourse also ends in economic collapse. If nobody is paying anyone, nobody is buying anything.
Henry Ford achieved legendary success by creating a product his own workers could afford. More recently, Walmart has used a similar model.
I believe Marx’s goal was to have machines doing the grunt work, having society share in the fruits of machine labor, and freeing people to pursue more fulfilling goals such as the arts.
As machines do more and more work previously done by paid human labor, the subject of “universal basic income” rears its head. There was a candidate for president in 2020 who made this the center of his platform.
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@WyIted
FDA
What do you want, Mom and pop's formerly-a-meth-lab pharmaceuticals? If you think this isn't a business area that requires extreme rigor then I can't have a conversation with you like you are a rational adult.
Centrally planned economies just don't work well.
I'm not talking about a centrally planned economy. I'm talking about a government overseen economy. One where fair wages are assured. The balancing act in capitalism is keeping the most part of the wealth in the middle class. It's the game of monopoly. Once one person holds all the properties the game is over. The rest of us are just going around the board paying rent.
As machines do more and more work previously done by paid human labor, the subject of “universal basic income” rears its head. There was a candidate for president in 2020 who made this the center of his platform.
Do you know what UBI actually means? Where the most part of kids coming up through school now will only ever collect some government paycheck?
Who owns and operates the means of production then? Private individuals? Forever?
Capitalism is a balancing act and we do not let it tip.
This is why the working class cannot minimum wage itself into prosperity.
Minimum wage is a start. Representation on corporate boards is a next step. There is no reason to be against a minimum wage.