Gunplay Mafia DP2

Author: Mharman
Mafia
DP2
Gunplay Mafia

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#241
WyIted
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@Lunatic
If I was scum why would I delay austins lynch? There can only be one more scum member since we hit one. Your logic makes no sense. I get your mad that your getting voted, but omgus doesn't suit you mate.
He's quite obviously scum. Just saying in the one in a million chance he wasn't than you are.
#242
Lunatic
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@Vader
So like I said, he fakes that he caught someone by waiving a kill, what are you going to do then
Lynch austin no matter what. That is the plan and we stick to it. When austin flips town, we have guaranteed scum and the games over. If hes scum we win anyway. It's quite literally a win/win situation if we follow through lynching austin tomorrow regardless. Again this might not even end up being an issue if we lynch wylted here and hes scum we will just outright win the game. 

Like uhh, mafia waive the kill to frame someone. Think
Wylted gets the lynch on him, he flips town 5v1
Austin waives the kill but as scum RB, hypothetically RB's let's say WF
WF get's lynched, 4v1
Savant is killed in the NP, 3v1
Then it's you, me, austin, casey. If he gets a mislynch off town lose boom comeback of all time
You aren't listening to me. Austin doesn't make it into a LYLO situation period if he gets lynched tomorrow. Which is 100% happening no matter what if wylted isn't scum and we don't just win from lynching him today. There is literally no way austin as scum can win here if we lynch him tomorrow. And we get the benefit of a confirmed player, or confirmed scum. No matter what. Only thing scum can do here to mess with our plan is to just kill austin, which honestly just makes our life easier anyway and saves us a mislynch. 

You can promise all you want until he comes in and tries to frame someone with his "JAIL"
Idc, literally if the night kill doesn't go through and he claims he blocked whiteflame, it doesn't matter. I vote austin. If whiteflame is scum he dies the next day and scum lose anyway. This plan is literally unfallible.

I think you can argue the same thing for Wylted
No, because it only specifically applies to austin and his jailkeeper role. Wylted hasn't claimed a role that has a planned contingency to solve the game or narrow POE down with him dying second, as does austin.

VADER LISTEN TO ME. PLEASE. I know you are typing these rebuttals before you are even reading what I am saying, it's clear based on your responses that you aren't getting this. Please stop being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn and hear the idea out. Don't let confirmation bias make a dumb decision for you. This plan it failproof. 
#243
Lunatic
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@WyIted
He's quite obviously scum. Just saying in the one in a million chance he wasn't than you are.
Omgus based logic, otherwise you would bother explaining the read lol
#244
Lunatic
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I've got to drive to work, I can respond more later, but I don't really see the point in hammering this logic down anymore than we have. Vader please stop and think about the plan logically. Austin dies no matter what tomorrow, 0 escape. I don't care if there is no night kill, I will 100% help you lynch austin no matter what. Think about this. 
#245
WyIted
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@Lunatic
Explained. Vader is obviously town for his early claim. Whiteflame never puts that much effort as scum. Casey is town based on her behavior and early push on GP. Savant is town because we expected a watcher and we'll there he is.

Austin is scum because he is quite literally just claiming a variation of doctor and pie flipped doctor plus POE.

The game is solved and it's pointless to delay this bullshit. I actually find it a bit disrespectful that he is trying to force us to play the game game out by fighting for his life here
#246
Savant
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@Lunatic
@whiteflame
I think whiteflame is going to be the deciding factor on this. Either votes for Austin or gives a firm commitment to lynch Austin tomorrow. I see your logic and all, but I don't love going in blind when scum have an unknown faction perk.
#247
WyIted
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So if lunatic is scum we unnecessarily drag the game out to dp4 instead of 3. If Austin is scum we unnecessarily drag it out and additional DP.

It's retarded
#248
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@Lunatic
Here is a Mafia recruiting role called Yakuza that was almost successful because town almost did the retarded thing by delaying the obvious lynch until I stepped in

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/11336-clash-of-clans-endgame
#249
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I also find it odd you never saw a Mafia recruiting faction when you literally created one for that game
#250
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Just got out of work, will fully catch up and share my thoughts soon. 
#251
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At this point, I am going to have to rethink my reads. It's still plausible that Austin is scum, but I really don't like that logic that's being used to push that lynch, at least on two fronts. His role claim is sus because we know an RB must exist and his is the only one we've known to have any effect. He's in a lot of peoples' POE and that's valid.

Where I'm struggling is in the added details people keep throwing in there.

WyIted has said some variation of this a couple of times:

Austin is scum because he is quite literally just claiming a variation of doctor and pie flipped doctor plus POE.
This implies that the two would never be in the same game together, though I've seen plenty of games designed with town having both these roles. If you want to call those imbalanced, be my guest, but this is not an unusual town composition, particularly with a scum JOAT in the mix to balance a mix of protective roles. Beyond that, while I recognize that both roles function protectively, they're clearly different and are often used entirely differently, with the JK often being used chiefly for its RB rather than its protection. So, no, I don't see an implied CC in this.

As for the scum faction perk, I'm not a big fan of this line of argument, either. There's too much wild speculation going on with this, particularly in terms of a recruitment role. I could see a world in which there is some pretty powerful perk available to them, but given that we already know they had a decently strong JOAT, I don't buy that scum also have someone with an RB (which we know they have) plus a recruitment role, or that their perk is so dramatically game-breaking that leaving them alive for one more night utterly fucks over town.

By contrast, I see the point both he and Luna are making about the potential gains town could get from having another person JK'd. It's not a given that he'd get to use it, particularly if he is town since we know scum have an RB of their own, but there's a possibility of getting relevant information that could narrow POE. I'm still not sure if it's reason enough to let Austin live out the DP, especially considering that we don't have a clear alternative lynch, but I'm also not just going to dismiss it out of hand.

I'm going to revisit all this tomorrow. A number of you seem to really just want this to end, but we're only a little over 24 hours into this DP, so I'm going to take my time.
#252
AustinL0926
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@whiteflame
By contrast, I see the point both he and Luna are making about the potential gains town could get from having another person JK'd. It's not a given that he'd get to use it, particularly if he is town since we know scum have an RB of their own
The town faction perk guarantees my role can't be interfered with.
#253
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@AustinL0926
The town faction perk guarantees my role can't be interfered with.
Assuming you stay off a mislynch, sure. I guess the alternative - that we just lynch scum - would render that moot anyway.
#254
Lunatic
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@WyIted
Austin is scum because he is quite literally just claiming a variation of doctor and pie flipped doctor plus POE.
The doctor flipped before he claimed. So your insinuating the scum austin is just a retard and can't come up with literally anything better. Come on, this is just lazy scum play man...

The game is solved and it's pointless to delay this bullshit. I actually find it a bit disrespectful that he is trying to force us to play the game game out by fighting for his life here
Exactly, so why would he if he was scum and his lynch was inevitable? 

Here is a Mafia recruiting role called Yakuza that was almost successful because town almost did the retarded thing by delaying the obvious lynch until I stepped in

I am probably the only person (since danielle left the site) that has used this role, and I've never seen it used again. When danielle used it I remember LM complaining that the role was too OP. I don't really think it is, all it does it reset town confirmations and make everyone suspect again, which is powerful, but not gamebreaking. That said, it's not a very common role and I am literally only the second person to use this role ever on this website. Your whole contigency against this plan is based on a variable of a role that has less than a 2% chance of even existing in the game. Even if the role exists, the worst thing to come from this is that we have reset reads tomorrow, as I just pointed out. I think that is a worthy risk for a role that most likely doesn't even exist in the game anyway. 
#255
whiteflame
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Anyway, I'm heading off for the night. I'm sure I'll get some more responses, so I'll address those tomorrow and go back through both DPs to see if it changes my thoughts.
#256
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@whiteflame
This implies that the two would never be in the same game together, though I've seen plenty of games designed with town having both these roles. If you want to call those imbalanced, be my guest, but this is not an unusual town composition, particularly with a scum JOAT in the mix to balance a mix of protective roles. Beyond that, while I recognize that both roles function protectively, they're clearly different and are often used entirely differently, with the JK often being used chiefly for its RB rather than its protection. So, no, I don't see an implied CC in this.

To add to this, the faction perk could be used for just the town jailkeeper, accounting for them making townie mistakes, or it could be used to reference GP's strongman which would normally interfere with a protection. Im assuming if pie target was the night kill, his protection from being the hammerer and getting the faction perk would also play into the preventative aspect. 

That said I still think it's likely scum could have a roleblock, just saying it doesn't have to mean they have one. Or the remaining scum chose a target who was passive thus not knowing they were roleblocked to even announce it. Or They had to choose between the roleblock or another role. Or it's x shot and they didn't wanna waste it. There's a bunch reasons to explain the lack of another person claiming to be blocked. 
#257
Lunatic
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@whiteflame
Austin live out the DP, especially considering that we don't have a clear alternative lynch, but I'm also not just going to dismiss it out of hand.
Wylted is the alternative.
#258
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@Lunatic
The doctor flipped before he claimed. So your insinuating the scum austin is just a retard
Correct
#259
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Oh yeah and there's a car thief, which confirms the existence of a commuter, just one more thing to add to the list
#260
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@WyIted
The doctor flipped before he claimed. So your insinuating the scum austin is just a retard
Correct

How did austin hurt you so bad lol
#261
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@Lunatic
How did austin hurt you so bad lol
It's just frustrating from my point of view because you maybe are uncertain of who is scum but from my POV he's scum and it's annoying he wants to delay the game by a single DP.

On the off chance he is town it's even more annoying because the town block is so big that the town win is a foregone conclusion so him fighting for something that gives us very little extra advantage feels silly.

If I put myself in his shoes than I just get lynched and don't fight it TBH. I think at one point your vote, Austin's and savant was on me this DP and you saw me put up zero fight just because the results of this game are a foregone conclusion and now we are just going through the motions until the inevitable victory.
#262
Lunatic
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@WyIted
It's just frustrating from my point of view because you maybe are uncertain of who is scum but from my POV he's scum and it's annoying he wants to delay the game by a single DP.
In what way does this benefit him? Why not just quit if he's scum? 

On the off chance he is town it's even more annoying because the town block is so big that the town win is a foregone conclusion so him fighting for something that gives us very little extra advantage feels silly.

That's why I don't understand why your answer to all this is that "Austin is just a retard" because even you seem to know it makes no sense for him to do that. 

If I put myself in his shoes than I just get lynched and don't fight it TBH. I think at one point your vote, Austin's and savant was on me this DP and you saw me put up zero fight just because the results of this game are a foregone conclusion and now we are just going through the motions until the inevitable victory.
Why be frustrated at an inevitable victory? Not seeing the con here. 
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#263
Mharman
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Vote Count
Austin (3/4) - Wylted, Savant, Vader
Wylted (1/4) - Lunatic

Nothing changed but I’m posting this again for everyone’s convenience- especially mine since it helps me keep track
#264
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I have to revisit some points but I just don't see myself moving off Austin unless there is something that is so gamebreaking and damning for an alternative that is going to make me change my mind
#265
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@Lunatic
It's just frustrating from my point of view because you maybe are uncertain of who is scum but from my POV he's scum and it's annoying he wants to delay the game by a single DP.
In what way does this benefit him? Why not just quit if he's scum? 
I think it's just different perspectives that you and him see or he sees. We have no clue what the second ability scum may have. He could still have a chance at winning this game and we don't know.

From a personality perspective, I don't want to psyche out Austin, but maybe he finally gets mafia after a while and wants to stick with it? Not eager to just end after DP2? Idk I think there's so many answers that realistically won't do shit
#266
Casey_Risk
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Okay, I'm home. Suffice it to say, I still don't want to lynch Wylted, for the reasons I gave before, and for another reason as well. My PoE still has it down to just Austin and Luna, though Luna coming around to Austin's defense seems rather townie of him. As for Austin, the whole "I would not do something this sus as scum" argument would hold more water if we hadn't both played in Pie's Recycled Roles. Granted, that was a pretty egregious example of how NOT to play as scum, but the point is, we all make mistakes sometimes, and I certainly don't think Austin is immune to bad play just because he's experienced. I still don't like the 2x Jailkeeper claim for more reasons than one, and Austin was pretty obviously desperate for the town to get off his back. Granted, I understand his reasoning -- if he is telling the truth, then he's the last town protective role, and he has the chance to potentially stop the NK. And I have to admit, I do see the appeal in letting him try to prove himself.

For me, though, it all comes down to, how sure am I about my PoE? And the answer is, pretty sure. Savant is obviously town, Vader is very hard for me to scumread, Wylted is town to me for a couple of very particular reasons, and WF has been giving me good vibes all game. I think I know what you're softing, Luna, and I'd appreciate it if you told us any info that you have. I'm very reluctant to lynch anyone outside of you and Austin, and if I'm right about my PoE, then we win regardless of what roles there are, as long as we just lynch within the pool.
#267
WyIted
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@Lunatic
That's why I don't understand why your answer to all this is that "Austin is just a retard" because even you seem to know it makes no sense for him to do that.
It's an elaborate wifom thing. Nothing more. You are wifoming yourself to death
#268
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@WyIted
That's why I don't understand why your answer to all this is that "Austin is just a retard" because even you seem to know it makes no sense for him to do that.
It's an elaborate wifom thing. Nothing more. You are wifoming yourself to death
I just don't think we've learned all that much from this tomorrow if austin gets lynched and has flipped town. Oh well. 
#269
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@Casey_Risk
 I think I know what you're softing, Luna, and I'd appreciate it if you told us any info that you have. I'm very reluctant to lynch anyone outside of you and Austin, and if I'm right about my PoE, then we win regardless of what roles there are, as long as we just lynch within the pool.
You guessed my role wrong, I don't have any information for you. And your POE is also wrong too, me and austin are town mate. I don't know how I ended up in your POE after being one of the main pushers of GP dp1m but okay. 
#270
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@Vader
I think it's just different perspectives that you and him see or he sees. We have no clue what the second ability scum may have. He could still have a chance at winning this game and we don't know.

From a personality perspective, I don't want to psyche out Austin, but maybe he finally gets mafia after a while and wants to stick with it? Not eager to just end after DP2? Idk I think there's so many answers that realistically won't do shit
If austin is scum here and made a grandmaster plan that lets himself get lynched either way hes just not a good mafia player. You may be willing to go that far to justify everything thats happened, I just can't bite that bullet.