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@Mopac
And you imagine the existence of an orthodox god, you just shot the poor bastard dead.. What you can imagine is by definition not reality in the truest sense of the word
The insecurity of atheists, and why they spam theist forums on a daily basis
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@Mopac
So if you could look at it from my perspective for a moment, you should realize that contradicting me is an exercise in futility because I know what I believe, you don't, and there is not much you can do while disputing on this that would convince me that you aren't simply uneducated.
You seem incapable of seeing things from my perspective! I do not contradict your own beliefs - I try to correct you about the beliefs of people like me who are not stupid or less educated than your good self.
I know what I believe, you don't,
If I don't know what you believe by now I wonder why you bother to post! I know you conflate truth/reality with a particular theistic conception of God. I know you think that rejecting your conception of god is to reject truth and reality.
But that aspect of what you believe is clearly just not so! You have repeatedly said its madness to reject reality - of course it is! But if you think that one cannot reject god without rejecting the reality of tables and chairs or 2+2=4 then you are wrong.
You seem incapable of seeing things from my perspective! I do not contradict your own beliefs - I try to correct you about the beliefs of people like me who are not stupid or less educated than your good self.
Someone is taking classes from an experienced liar.
If I don't know what you believe by now I wonder why you bother to post! I know you conflate truth/reality with a particular theistic conception of God. I know you think that rejecting your conception of god is to reject truth and reality.
He gives two fucks what any theist thinks.
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@keithprosser
Good post.
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@keithprosser
If you know what I believe, then you should know by rejecting my God you are rejecting reality.
It isn't charitable for me to point this out but...
It is more charitable for me to believe you are ignorant than for me to believe you knowingly waging war against The Truth. After all, if it is the later, you are commiting a great evil!
And really, you are commiting a great evil by taking on the role of an anti-Christ, because if I am right about what the church teaches(and I certainly have good reason to believe so), you are making yourself an enemy of truth to satisfy your aversion to the concept if God.
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@Mopac
Equivocation fallacy ad nauseum.
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@Fallaneze
I am not making a fallacy, but if you refuse to accept how we understand God while denying that God exists, you are commiting the fallacy of invincible ignorance.
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@Mopac
Yes, you are. You're conflating "ultimate reality" (which theists and atheists both agree exists) with the particular branch of theism at your church. You are using the term "God" to refer to two different things. You may believe that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God is the ultimate reality while atheists believe that the material world is the ultimate reality. Get it?
I'm keeping my expectations low.
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@Fallaneze
Yes, you are. You're conflating "ultimate reality" (which theists and atheists both agree exists)
Full stop! (My deb-8-a-bull impression)
THAT IS WHAT GOD MEANS
So whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, you believe in God.
with the particular branch of theism at your church.
No, YOU ARE, and so does everyone else who finds it easier to dismiss a church than it is to dismiss God.
And if I were to preach God alone, simply the Ultimmate Reality, attaching it to no religion, atheists would still reject it, and I know this because I have already seen this to be the case.
The issue here has more to do with an aversion to the very concept of God or the word than anything else. Anything but that!
You are using the term "God" to refer to two different things. You may believe that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God is the ultimate reality while atheists believe that the material world is the ultimate reality. Get it?
No, I believe that The Ultimate Reality has ultimate authority, power, and influence of all thing (omnipotent), has within it everything there is that can be known(omniscient), and being that what The Ultimate Reality does is Truth, that The Truth is what is truly good(omnibenevolent). It isn't that I have thos arbitrary qualities and say they are God.
And what I am saying is the truth.
You say the material world is God. I disagree. I say the material world is creation. I would say that without God, the material world would not exist.
Pardon me, you wouldn't call the material world God, because as an atheist, you have an aversion to the word "God" because your understanding of the very concept is riddled with superstitious nonsense.
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@Mopac
"You say the material world is God. I disagree. I say the material world is creation. I would say that without God, the material world would not exist"
Why the endless charade about God meaning "ultimate reality" if you believe a creator exists then? Like I said, atheists believe that the material world is the "ultimate reality." All you're doing is continuing an endless equivocation that has convinced nobody.
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@Fallaneze
The Ultimate Reality is what the word "God" means. As this is the case, you believe in an ultimate reality. Therefore you believe in God.
You can deny this and call equivication fallacy all you want, you are simply in denial. I don't expect to convince someone who is so delusional they would define themselves by their lack of belief in reality.
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@Mopac
So someone who believes that the material world is the ultimate reality means that they believe God exists?
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@Fallaneze
Of course, because you believe that the material world is the ultimate reality. You are calling the material world God.
I would not personally identify the material world as God. You do. So we would understand God differently, but we still believe that God exists.
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@Mopac
So God is a completely useless term then.
God = reality
Reality exists
Therefore, God exists
God = me
I exist
Therefore, God exists
God = rocks
Rocks exist
Therefore, God exists
If God meant reality then we already have a term for that... it's called reality.
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@Fallaneze
Yet God has been understood as this for thousands of years.
So when you argue over these things because of your aversion to God, you are really doing little more than creating unnecessary strife. The theists are never going to budge on this, so it is a waste of time trying to get them to or debating about these words.
You must understand, we take this very seriously, it is not something we hold in irreverence.
And God isn't simply reality. God is THE ULTIMATE REALITY. Matter isn't ultimately real. Matter doesn't account for everything. Matter is creation. The Ultimate Reality is Uncreated, Eternally Existing, perfect in every way, and accounts for the entirety of existence.
It is a reality that is the year 2019. Next year, this won't be reality. I am not talking about a relative truth. A transient reality. I am talking about that which is always true in every sense. I am talking about God.
And as I said, we theists are not going to give up our God. 66.5 million orthodox martyrs in the last century show that. And the people who have tried to kill this are aware of this.
And we are alot nicer than the Muslims, who don't tolerate anyone so foolish as to blaspheme God. They will kill you. Good luck convincing them to give up God.
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@Mopac
God has been understood as a supreme being for thousands of years, not the "ultimate reality." You're a Christian and insist on using a particularly obscure definition of the word "God" that basically means the same thing as reality. Good luck.
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@Fallaneze
There is only one Supreme Being.
You do realize that "being" means existence right? What is the supreme existence?
It means the same thing as Ultimate Reality.
What I am saying isn't contingent on an obscure definition in a language that didn't exist a thousand years ago.
This is always how Orthodoxy has understood the concept.
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@Mopac
No, "being" in "supreme being" is referring to a mind or consciousness, not existence.
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@Fallaneze
Yet, I have read the writings of the church fathers and the saints. I have read the scriptures. I know my religion. I know my faith better than you could ever hope to as an atheist.
And you know what?
You're wrong.
And I know you are wrong.
You on the other hand, don't know what you are saying. You don't know you are wrong. If you knew you were wrong, you would abandon your atheism.
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@Mopac
There's sainthood, doctrine, and churches based around the belief that reality exists?
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@Mopac
Adding an adjective to the word reality is redundant, the combination becomes meaningless.
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@Fallaneze
I don't really believe you are interested in hearing what my religion is about, I think you are only interested in mocking the whole thing all together.
But there is a topic I created if you have sincere questions. I am not interested in entertaining you.
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@Mopac
And God isn't simply reality. God is THE ULTIMATE REALITY. Matter isn't ultimately real. Matter doesn't account for everything. Matter is creation. The Ultimate Reality is Uncreated, Eternally Existing, perfect in every way, and accounts for the entirety of existence.It is a reality that is the year 2019. Next year, this won't be reality. I am not talking about a relative truth. A transient reality. I am talking about that which is always true in every sense. I am talking about God.
You might be talking about mathematics.
And it isn't simply reality. It is THE ULTIMATE REALITY. Matter isn't ultimately real. Matter doesn't account for everything. Matter is creation. The Ultimate Reality is Uncreated, Eternally Existing, perfect in every way, and accounts for the entirety of existence.It is a reality that is the year 2019. Next year, this won't be reality. I am not talking about a relative truth. A transient reality. I am talking about that which is always true in every sense. I am talking about Mathematics.
I don't think atheists would necessarily deny the existence of the thing you describe. The probem is that calling it 'God' implies a lot more than 'reality exists' - it implies that it is the God of the bible that exists.
I don't think atheists would necessarily deny the existence of the thing you describe. The probem is that calling it 'God' implies a lot more than 'reality exists' - it implies that it is the God of the bible that exists.
I'm sorry you can't reconcile your idea of what the God of the bible is with what I'm saying. Maybe one day you'll realize you don't have it all figured out and get over your hang up.
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@Mopac
You're right, I'm not interested in hearing about your religion. I'm interested in exposing the logical inconsistencies of your platform. So is there sainthood, doctrine, and churches based around the belief that reality exists?
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@Fallaneze
You don't understand my religion, you aren't interested in understanding it, and you are trying to refute it.
Well, I'm not interested in playing straw man for you.
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@Mopac
Your religion is about believing reality exists.
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@Fallaneze
Lol
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@Mopac
I don't have it 'all worked out' - I am trying to get you to realise that your 'working out' is not necessarily true. I believe it is not true.
I submit we can all - ie atheists and theists - agree that something underpins existence and reality. But no sensible atheist can claim to know what that 'something' is today. The closest we can get is the yet-to-be-discovered 'theory of everything'.
But the ToE is not the atheists god - the ToE is 'just' physics or mathematics.
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@keithprosser
You believe there is Ultimate Reality.
You at the very least believe that God exists, even if you don't know God.
Without acknowledging this, you are really just debating me over the meaning of words, and I absolutely cannot compromise on this.