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Author: Mall

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@tigerlord
Only thing I can argue on salvation is what is based in scripture. I can't argue whether the scripture is true or not . I can't argue the logic of it.

I can only argue if there is some sort of contradiction with salvation, along those lines. 

I can argue based on the scripture that the flesh is God and god .

If you want to counter all this , let me know if you want a video or a debate setup on this site. Let's just get specific.
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@Mall
Yes, video Vs video would be great.
Let's discuss the resolution and rules and how we are going to get votes on it. Probably shila would be organizer, if agree on it?
Who will give pension arguement and what should be resolution?
We will present structure here and presented main arguments in videos and then post here on turns and viewers could give review on how it's going and do they appreciate it. Then when we want to finish the debate, we both will agree about our input is enough to get judge now and leave the debate. After the debate is ended then we cannot add to arguments but we can discuss about the votes based on what already presented so far in videos. Unless we want to continue again.


In next post I am going to give resolution.

Our debate is about salvation.
And if you want some rules plz mention, as this is going to be first time so focussing how this is going to be done is better.
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@tigerlord
Ok saying the topic is salvation is too broad. To specify it, the topic can be, does salvation according to biblical scripture have contradictions within the scriptures?

So the next thing is being that I don't see any contradictions , you can suggest some biblical passages that appear in conflict to you or any scripture. I think the meat of the issues for you are contradictions in general within the bible.

Here's an example. God says besides him there is no savior. But the scripture also teaches the son to be the savior.

So go ahead and select things out of the scripture. I can present a video on it explaining. I believe you're subscribed to the J. Talks to the people channel, please ensure your post notifications is on for all posts. 








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@Mall
Here's an example. God says besides him there is no savior. But the scripture also teaches the son to be the savior.
How can salvation be taken seriously when those promoting salvation Jesus and his disciples were all martyred? The only ones seeing any signs of salvations were the Romans who crucified Jesus and killed his disciple to go on to creating the Roman Catholic Church offering salvation to the world.
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@Shila
Salvation according to the scriptures takes God working in a person to be worked out. When somebody is serious or takes salvation seriously, it is God working out the soul salvation in an individual.
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@Mall
Salvation according to the scriptures takes God working in a person to be worked out. When somebody is serious or takes salvation seriously, it is God working out the soul salvation in an individual.
So you are claiming God took the salvation of the Romans who crucified Jesus seriously and helped them establish the Roman Catholic Church and offering salvation with his authority.
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@Shila
Nope , never stated any of those words the way you put it. 

Put what you said side by side to what I stated and do a comparison. Two different paragraphs. You either want to learn something or reject what somebody tells you because you already decided the answer for yourself.
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@Shila
Sorry could not do anything today about it. As doing something related to my debate and it's voting. Tomorrow I will see, well Mall, I will tell you resolution tomorrow.
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@Mall
Nope , never stated any of those words the way you put it. 

Put what you said side by side to what I stated and do a comparison. Two different paragraphs. You either want to learn something or reject what somebody tells you because you already decided the answer for yourself.
God took the salvation of the Romans who crucified Jesus seriously.

Roman Catholicism traces its history to Jesus during the period of Roman occupation in the early 30s of the Common Era. Over a period of years after Jesus' life and death his followers spread out across the world to form a “universal” (Greek, katholikos) church with the bishop of Rome holding primacy.
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@Shila
I don't know where you're getting your information. I can tell you what scripture says regarding salvation.


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@Mall
I don't know where you're getting your information. I can tell you what scripture says regarding salvation
God had to save the Romans first so they could go on to for the Roman Catholic Church. We wouldn’t have 2 billion Christian’s today if it wasn’t for the Roman Catholic Church.
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@Shila
Ok.
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@Mall
Ok
Jesus moved from a Jewish asset to a Roman asset.
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@tigerlord
I tagged the wrong person above. 
Logical problem of salvation, it seems fake and it's innovation in Christianity but not reality. Then thing is concept of salvation could not be true because jesus did not talk with anyone after he was supposed curxifiction. Also flesh is not god even they say nature or god, still nature of god being human also defy the godship and how can nature or a god be human. That should not make him god in fact it clearly shows hybridism. Whether they say it's flesh or nature but we can see a physically entity not some hypothetical or metaphysical so that you can say it's just nature but it's a full fledge physical entity and how can you say it's just nature or god to show it's metaphysical and physical laws won't apply on him. So i would say flesh being not god or nature or god but human shows that god did not die and god did not die even jesus was being crucified but in actuality he was not by islamic prospective
Even the Jews agree with Muslims Jesus is not God or even the promised Messiah. So only agreement on circumcision can being the Jews and Muslims together.
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@Shila
1. God Created Suffering but Did Not Know How It Feels (Against Omniscience)

If God is omniscient, He must already know everything, including the experience of suffering, since knowledge of all things is an inherent attribute of an all-knowing being.

The argument that God needed to experience suffering through Jesus to "understand" suffering contradicts His omniscience. If God needs to learn or feel something to understand it, He was not omniscient in the first place.

Logically, how can a being create something (suffering) without understanding or knowing it? If God created suffering without knowing its nature, it questions His perfection and forethought.


This argument highlights a contradiction: the omniscience of God negates the necessity for Him to "learn" suffering through Jesus.


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2. God Sacrificing to Himself (Self-Contradiction)

Sacrifice implies giving up something for the sake of another, often at great cost. If God sacrificed Jesus to Himself, He essentially gave something to Himself.

Rationally, this is circular. It’s like someone transferring money from their left pocket to their right pocket and calling it a donation.

If Jesus' death was necessary for the forgiveness of sins, it portrays God as bound by some external rule requiring sacrifice to forgive—this undermines His omnipotence. A truly omnipotent God wouldn’t need a sacrifice to forgive; He could forgive unconditionally.

This also raises the question: Was God’s divine nature involved in the sacrifice, or just the human nature of Jesus? If only the human part suffered, it weakens the concept of divine sacrifice.



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3. The Nature of Jesus: Flesh and Divinity Combined

Claim: Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human.

Logically, this is problematic. A being cannot simultaneously be finite (human) and infinite (divine). These two natures are mutually exclusive.

If Jesus’ human nature suffered but his divine nature did not, then God did not truly experience suffering. This separation undermines the claim that God fully experienced human suffering.


Claim: Flesh (material) comes from divine nature.

How can a divine, eternal, and spiritual being produce a material, finite body? If God is immaterial, He cannot directly give rise to material forms.

This also raises questions about the immortality of divine nature: If Jesus' human body died, does that mean the divine nature also experienced death? If not, then the claim that God "died" is false.




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4. Can the Divine and Human Natures Coexist?

The Christian doctrine of hypostatic union (Jesus being fully God and fully man) claims that Jesus retained both natures without conflict.

Rationally, this is hard to reconcile:

Divinity implies perfection, omnipotence, and immortality.

Humanity implies imperfection, mortality, and limitations.


Combining these two natures creates logical contradictions. For example:

If Jesus was omnipotent, how could he experience hunger, fatigue, or death?

If Jesus was mortal, how could he also claim eternal existence?




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5. Suffering as a Divine Act

If God Himself suffered, does this mean that He subjected Himself to His own creation (suffering and death)?

Why would an all-powerful God need to "borrow" human nature to experience suffering? Couldn't He simply will Himself to know it?

If God is unchanging (as many theologies claim), then experiencing suffering would imply change, which contradicts the notion of divine immutability.



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Summary of Logical Problems:

1. Omniscience Contradiction: God cannot learn or experience something He doesn’t already know.


2. Circular Sacrifice: God sacrificing to Himself is illogical.


3. Dual Nature Conflict: A being cannot simultaneously be fully human and fully divine without logical inconsistencies.


4. Immaterial vs. Material: The idea of an immaterial God producing a material body raises metaphysical contradictions.


5. Suffering and Divine Immutability: If God suffered, He underwent change, which contradicts His divine, unchanging nature.




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Final Thought:

These arguments demonstrate that core Christian doctrines like the crucifixion, atonement, and dual nature of Jesus face significant philosophical and logical challenges when analyzed from a purely rational perspective. They rely heavily on faith and the acceptance of paradoxes, which many would argue defy reason.

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@Mall
1. God Created Suffering but Did Not Know How It Feels (Against Omniscience)

If God is omniscient, He must already know everything, including the experience of suffering, since knowledge of all things is an inherent attribute of an all-knowing being.

The argument that God needed to experience suffering through Jesus to "understand" suffering contradicts His omniscience. If God needs to learn or feel something to understand it, He was not omniscient in the first place.

Logically, how can a being create something (suffering) without understanding or knowing it? If God created suffering without knowing its nature, it questions His perfection and forethought.


This argument highlights a contradiction: the omniscience of God negates the necessity for Him to "learn" suffering through Jesus.


---

2. God Sacrificing to Himself (Self-Contradiction)

Sacrifice implies giving up something for the sake of another, often at great cost. If God sacrificed Jesus to Himself, He essentially gave something to Himself.

Rationally, this is circular. It’s like someone transferring money from their left pocket to their right pocket and calling it a donation.

If Jesus' death was necessary for the forgiveness of sins, it portrays God as bound by some external rule requiring sacrifice to forgive—this undermines His omnipotence. A truly omnipotent God wouldn’t need a sacrifice to forgive; He could forgive unconditionally.

This also raises the question: Was God’s divine nature involved in the sacrifice, or just the human nature of Jesus? If only the human part suffered, it weakens the concept of divine sacrifice.



---

3. The Nature of Jesus: Flesh and Divinity Combined

Claim: Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human.

Logically, this is problematic. A being cannot simultaneously be finite (human) and infinite (divine). These two natures are mutually exclusive.

If Jesus’ human nature suffered but his divine nature did not, then God did not truly experience suffering. This separation undermines the claim that God fully experienced human suffering.


Claim: Flesh (material) comes from divine nature.

How can a divine, eternal, and spiritual being produce a material, finite body? If God is immaterial, He cannot directly give rise to material forms.

This also raises questions about the immortality of divine nature: If Jesus' human body died, does that mean the divine nature also experienced death? If not, then the claim that God "died" is false.




---

4. Can the Divine and Human Natures Coexist?

The Christian doctrine of hypostatic union (Jesus being fully God and fully man) claims that Jesus retained both natures without conflict.

Rationally, this is hard to reconcile:

Divinity implies perfection, omnipotence, and immortality.

Humanity implies imperfection, mortality, and limitations.


Combining these two natures creates logical contradictions. For example:

If Jesus was omnipotent, how could he experience hunger, fatigue, or death?

If Jesus was mortal, how could he also claim eternal existence?




---

5. Suffering as a Divine Act

If God Himself suffered, does this mean that He subjected Himself to His own creation (suffering and death)?

Why would an all-powerful God need to "borrow" human nature to experience suffering? Couldn't He simply will Himself to know it?

If God is unchanging (as many theologies claim), then experiencing suffering would imply change, which contradicts the notion of divine immutability.



---

Summary of Logical Problems:

1. Omniscience Contradiction: God cannot learn or experience something He doesn’t already know.


2. Circular Sacrifice: God sacrificing to Himself is illogical.


3. Dual Nature Conflict: A being cannot simultaneously be fully human and fully divine without logical inconsistencies.


4. Immaterial vs. Material: The idea of an immaterial God producing a material body raises metaphysical contradictions.


5. Suffering and Divine Immutability: If God suffered, He underwent change, which contradicts His divine, unchanging nature.




---

Final Thought:

These arguments demonstrate that core Christian doctrines like the crucifixion, atonement, and dual nature of Jesus face significant philosophical and logical challenges when analyzed from a purely rational perspective. They rely heavily on faith and the acceptance of paradoxes, which many would argue defy reason.

Mall
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@tigerlord
Ok a video response will be made. Stayed tuned, make sure your post notifications is on.

I recommend you check out the latest video regarding the discussion with atheist.
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@Mall
Ok, I will check.
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@tigerlord
Final Thought:

These arguments demonstrate that core Christian doctrines like the crucifixion, atonement, and dual nature of Jesus face significant philosophical and logical challenges when analyzed from a purely rational perspective. They rely heavily on faith and the acceptance of paradoxes, which many would argue defy reason.
That is why Muslims have to pray 5 times a day for answers that Christians accept on faith.
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@Shila
I do not understand it? What you mean by this plz explain?
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@tigerlord
I do not understand it? What you mean by this plz explain?
Initially, 50 daily prayers were commanded, which were subsequently reduced to five on the advice of Prophet Moses to the Holy Apostle. Therefore, Muslims pray five times a day to fulfill the obligation bestowed upon them by the command of Allah through His Holy Messenger.

Christians already have their answers in the Bible and only have to accept it by faith.

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@Shila
Yes that is true, if a Christian have a strong faith in bible or Christianity that is positive signs and I admire it. I always say what kind of faith is a faith which change so easily. 
Only a strong argument should be able to shake you, more appropriate to say if God himself want to change then  you should change. That is why I always believe,  only Allah can guide whomever he wants and we are just means to deliver his message. 
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@tigerlord
Yes that is true, if a Christian have a strong faith in bible or Christianity that is positive signs and I admire it. I always say what kind of faith is a faith which change so easily. 
Only a strong argument should be able to shake you, more appropriate to say if God himself want to change then  you should change. That is why I always believe,  only Allah can guide whomever he wants and we are just means to deliver his message. 
The Quran is much shorter than the Bible. So much has been left out of the Quran. Which is why Muslims have to pray five times a day to get answers that have already been answered in the Bible.

The Bible (including the New and Old Testament) is considerably longer than the Qur'an. The Bible is roughly 800,000 words, the Qur'an is about one tenth of that (around 80,000 words).

So why can’t the Muslims just switch to the Bible?simple answer the majority of Muslims are illiterate.
The illiteracy rate in the Muslim world ranges between 40 percent among males and 65 percent among females, with rural areas lagging behind urban areas by over 10 percent, said the Islamic Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (ISESCO).

Over 80% of Muslims cannot read the Quran because the Quran is written in Arabic.

Why do Muslims believe that the Quran Cannot be translated?
According to Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in Quranic Arabic. Translations into other languages are the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original.

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@Shila
You do not know anything about Islam I guess.
Jews say the verse of quran in which Allah said he has completed his religion would have revealed then they would have considered that day sacred day.
Quran has been perfects and it's miracle of Allah, we have hadith which is interpretation of quran which is taught by prophet Muhammad saw. It's exegesis of quran and check my debate with slainte you will know how complete is islam. We have instruction from waking up in the morning till we wake up next day. Means even during night  like if someone wakes up because or nightmare what he is suppose to do. Bible has nothing related to way of life and society and ruling and it guides about nothing way of life, you can debate with about it obviously it would be close voting system and also if you want I can make a video about it. Right now. If I could have 1000 subs I could do live on YouTube but I can do it on discord. Or I can do here. But best would be read my first debate with slainte and you will know every aspect or life is covered in quran and also hadith so overall in whole islam.. bible has history and even some junk and some thing even very embarrassing. I really do not want to quote that.
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@tigerlord
You do not know anything about Islam I guess.
Jews say the verse of quran in which Allah said he has completed his religion would have revealed then they would have considered that day sacred day.
Was the prophet Mohammed illiterate?
The Qur'an identifies the Prophet Muḥammad as al-nabī al-ummī (Q. 7:157–158). Muslim consensus has come to perceive this epithet for the Prophet of Islam as indicating conclusively that he was Muḥammad, 'the illiterate prophet. 
Allah's message continued to be revealed to Muhammad over the next 23 years.

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@Shila
Yeah he was, so what? Bible also oral and later got written, I mean new testament.
What point you wanted to make here?  For Muslim to be literates and prophet as well. It has nothing to do with faith or religion. Allah has created human with that much of vision and wisdom to be able to choose correct religion by default. I don't think other then quite recently people had started to achieve literacy upto that extent. By the in West literacy making them leave Christianity and become atheist or Muslim. In West fastest getting religion is Islam. And atheism took almost half population. Campaigns like feminism and liberalism which I way too away from Christianity are emerging. Check my video how a atheism got into us.
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@tigerlord
Yeah he was, so what? Bible also oral and later got written, I mean new testament.
What point you wanted to make here?  For Muslim to be literates and prophet as well. It has nothing to do with faith or religion. Allah has created human with that much of vision and wisdom to be able to choose correct religion by default. I don't think other then quite recently people had started to achieve literacy upto that extent. By the in West literacy making them leave Christianity and become atheist or Muslim. In West fastest getting religion is Islam. And atheism took almost half population. Campaigns like feminism and liberalism which I way too away from Christianity are emerging. Check my video how a atheism got into us.


Muslims are among the poorest of the poor in the world. Around 40% of the Muslim
population languishes in abject poverty, with nearly 350 million living under US$1.25 a day
(COMCEC, 2014). More than half of the world’s 57 Muslim countries are listed as low-
income food deficit countries by the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United
Nations (FAO 2014) and almost half of them ranks in the low category in the United Nations
Development Program’s Human Development Index (UNDP, 2014). Nearly 30% of Muslims
cannot read or write; in tribal rural areas, female illiteracy rate can go up to 75% (SESRIC
2013). Overall, Muslims constitute around 24% of the world population yet produce only
10% of the global GDP (SESRIC, 2012) and exhibit a poor performance on most of the key
development indicators.

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@Shila
Most of Muslim countries are near equator and most are oil rich and mineral rich and agricultural counties with diverse cultural and ethinical background. with abundance of natural resources and great talent. I am right now un employed even though I am educate and smart. Until now whatever works I have done I have done perfectly. Do you know why we can't excel? You know new world order and hidden agencies and organisations. They are at play to undermine us. We got senction and bans and we are not allowed international markets, our politician are corrupt and backed by  west and they do not let come the good one. Corruption is backed by west here. We are not blind even though you are. We know what is happening here. Our prime minister was put into jail after he said he won't help USA if they want us to attack Afghanistan. People are killed being in qatar and Iran. Whole family of Ismael hania was killed 11 members, who would dare to become leader when this era is very dangerous. People who become leader are scared of death like see Shah Faisal was killed and bhuto was hanged because they made islamic union.  You are being child to not know this thing. But we I am not a child. But shall I become upset and crazy because of this? This world is like they hardship and struggle is part of it. Corruption and dishonesty is part of it. You will get ultimate justice on the day of judgement. It's not like Christianity that even Christian with each other has done bad they will get salvation and there is no ultimate justice. Probably west do that with us becuse they do it because of salvation. Who do not know what happend with American native and Australian natives. And what happend when British captured golden sparrow India. What is the name of that tower which has whole wealth looted from India. Our resources are being used by west. Oil is expensive for us becuse or currency difference which is hovac while it's cheap for west. Dollar goes up even their is no reserves attached to it. They are bogus bills. But gold smith family controls everything related to finance. 

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@Shila
It's very deep dear.
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It's very deep dear.

The Turkish presidential spokesman said Friday that 60 percent of conflicts globally are occurring in Muslim nations.

"Sixty percent of conflicts in the world today are happening in Muslim countries. This must be a hard lesson for all of us," Ibrahim Kalin said, speaking at a seminar held at The Statistical, Economic and Social Research and Training Centre for Islamic Countries (SESRIC). The center is part of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC).

Kalin said most of the Muslim countries are becoming a playground for political proxy wars. "Why? Because we lack the unity we need."

The presidential aide said there are plans and schemes to divide Muslim countries, however, blaming others for Muslims' own problems is very easy to do.

"We really have to address our own issues," he added.

Kalin went on to say there is a lot that can be done under the OIC umbrella. "Muslim countries need political leadership... they need unity more than ever."