Which party is better at addressing income inequality?

Author: n8nrgim

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Best.Korea
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@Greyparrot
No, he specifically implied hoarding wealth is evil. Ants are hoarders. Grasshoppers are takers.
If you have 2 million dollars, giving 20.000 to the poor every year is okay as its just 1% of wealth.
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@ludofl3x
And again I'm not arguing against wealth, what I'm arguing against is hoarding wealth. 
You would like to tell wealthy people how to spend their money when you had nothing to do with how they acquired their wealth.
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@Best.Korea
Or you can save it for emergencies and give it to the poor when the russians and chinese invade.
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@Greyparrot
Or you can save it for emergencies and give it to the poor when the russians and chinese invade.
The poor need the money now.

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God is all-powerful and has no limitations. The Bible says that God can do whatever he wants, and that nothing is too hard for him.
Yet he is in God prison for make rich good looking people and poor ugly people.
Shila
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@FLRW
God is all-powerful and has no limitations. The Bible says that God can do whatever he wants, and that nothing is too hard for him.
Yet he is in God prison for make rich good looking people and poor ugly people.
Matthew 13:12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.
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@Shila

LOL, OMG are you a Trumper?
DavidAZZ
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@ludofl3x
What is the point of having literally more money than you could ever spend while your fellow man struggles to have their basic needs met?
I see what you are saying.  It would seem to me that is something you would try to do if you had more than you needed, then share the wealth with others who would need it.  I would actually agree with that and it is biblical 1 John 3:17 "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?"  

I think the difference between what we are saying is that I would give the owner of the money the ability to decide where that money should be given rather than the government.

I just don't get why people who think they're rebels and so anti "The System" want to prop up oligarchs and the financial status quo and continue this way.
There is a fine line between admiring a person's ability and making them a role model.  I could say that Hitler, in his own way, was a dynamic leader and pulled Germany out of a pit of despair and made them a world power again.  He improved the lives of many millions of Germans and others around the world through their technological advances, BUT I DO NOT think Hitler was a good person or someone to follow, or prop up.  

So, Donald Trump is a billionaire and the next President.  You will have to agree that he has some sort of ability to get to where he was at.  Is he a good person?  Not hardly and I do not think he is a great role model.

They think they're vile because they hoard it, and look at poor people as one of two things: the problem, or a way for them to make more money.

I don't fully disagree with this.  I saw a meme once that showed a Wal-Mart self checkout asking the customer if they wanted to give a dollar to such and such charity.  The caption stated "you guys make billions a year, why don't you give them a dollar?", which I couldn't argue with.  It does show the greediness of some companies, like Wal-Mart, that will beg the patron for money then tout that they (walmart) gave millions to such and such charity.

So the answer is "oh well, guess that's how it is"? 
That is not what I was implying.  Just saying that a ultra rich stays rich through the government.  Imposing more taxes would not change it.

Or, we could have been.
What do you mean by this statement?  Are you saying we past the point of no return?

And again I'm not arguing against wealth, what I'm arguing against is hoarding wealth. 
I wouldn't be against obtaining wealth either, but I'm against taking the wealth by force.  I would say it's a slippery slope and we, the middle class, are already facing huge challenges because of it.
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@FLRW
LOL, OMG are you a Trumper?
No, but the Bible is. That is why Trump picked Bibles to sell.
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@Best.Korea
The poor need the money now.

They will need it more during war time.
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@Greyparrot
They will need it more during war time.
They can have it now and during your imaginary war time.
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@DavidAZZ
I think the difference between what we are saying is that I would give the owner of the money the ability to decide where that money should be given rather than the government.
This is all well and good, and ideally, I'd love for it to be this way. History demonstrates though that these ultra-wealthy don't really do much for society with all that money. They sit on it, and then will it to their kids, who then sit on it and let it grow, and bang, you have a permanent landed gentry and now a ruling class, which is profoundly unAmerican. I'd rather have hospitals, roads, schools, no hunger, less homelessness, etc. I'd love to see billionaires taking care of these problems on their own, but instead they're buying yachts and going to Diddy's Freak Offs. 

So, Donald Trump is a billionaire and the next President.  You will have to agree that he has some sort of ability to get to where he was at.  Is he a good person?  Not hardly and I do not think he is a great role model.
Yes, that "ability" was having a rich dad. Everything else follows from that. 

 Just saying that a ultra rich stays rich through the government.  Imposing more taxes would not change it.
Why not? What if we imposed a tax of 100% on anything over $200M at death? So if you have 1B, and you die, 800M goes to a pool of revenue for stuff like roads, bridge repair, energy initiatives, whatever. Sure, you'd have to find the leaks in this idea before you could implement it (like legislating against offshoring X% of your personal wealth in the Caymans, for example), but why wouldn't that change the way people at that level spend their money? I know, it sounds unsavory on the surface, and I know, conservatives will generally rail that "The government can do it to anyone then!" to which I say yes, they can, provided "anyone" has 250M in their bank account when they die. No one is saying YOUR business, my independent ironworker friend, will be "confiscated" or whatever other trigger words they'd use. I'm saying if your business is good enough to make you $250M, when you die, $200M goes wherever you willed it (though I have thoughts on this as well, different topic), and your community gets $50M to address issues within the community. Don't like that idea? Well, then I'd say when you are getting old, you decide "I'd like to fund a hospital wing and name it David Azz Children's Hospital with my $50m, so let me get on that before I'm dead." Or "I wonder how much of this extra $50M could be used to alleviate medical debt in my local community?"  It should be a problem you HOPE you have. 

Again, it's not a fully formed plan, it's just a framework, but I have yet to hear a moral argument against it that makes any sense. Most arguments are "WELL THOSE KIDS DIDN'T WELD ANY IRON! It's MY MONEY! DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH IT!" That's a tantrum, and while it may be true, it's not a moral argument. Don't listen to the ultra wealthy when they say it's too difficult, nothing will change, that's how they lull you into inaction. 

What do you mean by this statement?  Are you saying we past the point of no return?
Once we decided corporations were people and allowed mega dollars into elections, we tempted fate, and now it's here. The billionaires are going to write laws that only help them, because that's how they became billionaires, it's all they know. It's a much taller hill to climb now, but I don't think America became America by a bunch of people at the bottom of a mountain thinking "That looks really hard to do, so I'm not gonna do it." 

Important note here: make sure you really understand the difference between 1M and 1B. It's an evolutionary blind spot for us as people (there's no advantage to understanding this so we never do). I learned this through visualization or scale techniques, the one that really hit home for me was 1M seconds is about 11 days. 1B seconds is 32 YEARS. To scale it to our $200M number if dollars were seconds, that's about six years. $200B is not sixty years. It's SIX THOUSAND years. If  they're inches, then $200M goes from Boston into the Pacific Ocean by about 300 miles. $200B converted this way goes from the earth to the moon.

THIRTEEN TIMES. 
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but I have yet to hear a moral argument against it that makes any sense.

The moral argument is that you should be able to own what you produce, and theft is evil.
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@DavidAZZ
As a thought experiment:

Option A: A billionaire dies and leaves 80 billion to his son, his son has a miserable life producing nothing for society and wasting all the money.

Option B: A government confiscates 80 billion and gives it to 1 million people. 1 million now have a miserable life producing nothing for society and wasting all the money. (much like what happened during Covid, which also helped cause inflation with tons of unearned money in circulation and little production of goods)

Option C: The government  confiscates and burns (destroys) all the money, thus increasing the value of money for everyone who contributed to society and everyone who earned their own money.

Option A limits the harm.
Option B maximizes the harm and creates a sense of theft being morally acceptable for society.
Option C is also theft, but actually adds a benefit to all producers in society.
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@ludofl3x
This is all well and good, and ideally, I'd love for it to be this way. 
Then let's not change the ideals.  The idea to insert the government to meddle with "moral" affairs is a bad idea.  If a billionaire wants to give to global hunger or have a freak off, then it's their business and we should not be able to tell them what is and is not good or bad with their money, legislatively.

Yes, that "ability" was having a rich dad. Everything else follows from that. 
I believe it was a rich uncle, but none the less, he had to have abilities to keep it and make it grow.

Why not? What if we imposed a tax of 100% on anything over $200M at death?
Sounds great and all but this is like charging corporations environmental fees because they can afford it.  The corporations will turn around and raise their rates to make up for that fee.  They are not giving up that extra money.  They will pass it to the consumer and raise the inflation rate because of government intervention.  Keep the government out of the finance business.  It has only made things worse.

Somehow, the rich will find a way to by-pass this and stick it to us.

 but I don't think America became America by a bunch of people at the bottom of a mountain thinking "That looks really hard to do, so I'm not gonna do it." 
Actually, America came to be by rich elites, most of them losing everything to form this country.  This would be a good example of the rich doing good wit their riches, but I pretty sure it was not because they had such a good heart to see mankind thrive.
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@DavidAZZ

As I said, philosophically irreconcilable it seems. Good luck with your business all the same!

ETA, this is curious though:

Sounds great and all but this is like charging corporations environmental fees because they can afford it.  The corporations will turn around and raise their rates to make up for that fee.  They are not giving up that extra money.  They will pass it to the consumer and raise the inflation rate because of government intervention.  Keep the government out of the finance business.  It has only made things worse.
No, it's not like that at all. I'm talking about taxing personal wealth, not corporate wealth, in this case. How would you "raising your rates" as someone who died with 250M dollars work to your advantage, what's it even mean? I'm confused. If the end result is you spend the last ten years of your life thinking "I don't want to government fumbling my money, so I better do something good with it rather than accumulate three more airplanes", then the goal is achieved AND you had control over the money.

You don't even try to make the moral argument, though, my friend. You just say it won't work. 
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The poor need the money now.

They will need it more during war time.
They will need the money to buy Canada and Greenland and pay Trump his commission.
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@ludofl3x
This is what a landed gentry might look like, and it isn’t pretty:


In any case, the US already has an estate tax which applies to estates of $14 million or more. Many states have it starting at $1 million.
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@cristo71
This is what a landed gentry might look like, and it isn’t pretty:


In any case, the US already has an estate tax which applies to estates of $14 million or more. Many states have it starting at $1 million.

They will need the money to buy Canada and Greenland and pay Trump his commission.
DavidAZZ
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@ludofl3x
As I said, philosophically irreconcilable it seems. Good luck with your business all the same!
It seems the philosophy is more of a government intervention rather than a personal freedom, would you agree?  Meaning, we both feel it would be a good thing for the ultra-rich to help out the poor, except you feel it should be governed through legislation and I feel it should be governed by conscience.  Am I seeing this correctly?

No, it's not like that at all. I'm talking about taxing personal wealth, not corporate wealth, in this case. How would you "raising your rates" as someone who died with 250M dollars work to your advantage, what's it even mean? I'm confused.
It was just a reference of how the government would get those greedy bastards by imposing fees and such and they just slip out of it and move it on to us.  It will be the same song and dance with the ultra rich.

If the end result is you spend the last ten years of your life thinking "I don't want to government fumbling my money, so I better do something good with it rather than accumulate three more airplanes", then the goal is achieved AND you had control over the money.
Works in theory, I guess.  My only argument is that it give the government to authority to so with that money that the existing government want to do with it.  IF this were to happen to me, I wouldn't wanting to go to organizations that I don't believe in, such as Planned Parenthood, or a Catholic group.  On top of this, it is forcing a person to lose his fortune that he has gained and demanding he do something good with it.  I don't think the government should be the one determining what is good or not.
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@cristo71
This is what a landed gentry might look like, and it isn’t pretty:
LOL! I thought this was going to be a freakish documentary that you linked. A terrifying look into the lives of billionaires and the ruling class with freak parties and all!

I love Monty Python BTW.  I was introduced to them at a wee age of 7 with The search for the Holy Grail.  I didn't get a lot of references as a kid by the slap stick was funny enough at the time.

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China ranks 6th in the world in homeownership  93% of the population own their homes. America ranks 54 inthe world in homeownership. Only 65.7% of Americans own their own homes.
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@DavidAZZ
It seems the philosophy is more of a government intervention rather than a personal freedom, would you agree?  Meaning, we both feel it would be a good thing for the ultra-rich to help out the poor, except you feel it should be governed through legislation and I feel it should be governed by conscience.  Am I seeing this correctly?
As I see it,  leaving "conscience" to do it has resulted in it not being done. I can tell my kids to vacuum their rooms and hope their conscience compels them, but when they don't do it, I have other ways to compel them, right? What you're saying is just keep trusting that someday the light of reason will dawn on them, in the meantime, your house is getting more and more disgusting. We all share the same space, we all have responsibilities to it. If you don't think the government should intervene when hoarding wealth actively harms its citizens, we just are starting at entirely different premises and arguing it further would be pointless.

I want to make this vanishingly small percentage of the population (less than 10,000 people out of 300,000,000) to help those who need it, a percentage that grows every single day. You don't like the verb "make" there and think they'll "choose" to do it, even though they have never done so.   You think poor people are poor for mainly because they're incapable of "thinking like a rich person" or they just don't have the hustle to become the president of Microsoft. I think they're poor for a lot of reasons, but none of them have to do with thinking like a rich person. They're poor for reasons like a $200 monthly fee for a bank to maintain a checking account that doesn't have an average monthly balance of $1000 in it, for example. Thinking like a rich person isn't "save your money." Thinking like a rich person is "how do I replace $29 / hr David Azz with a $4 / hr Guillermo Gomez but still keep my selling price the same?" How that helps the struggling single mother is beyond me. 

IF this were to happen to me, I wouldn't wanting to go to organizations that I don't believe in, such as Planned Parenthood, or a Catholic group. 
Right on! Now you're talking: send every dollar you have over $200M to whatever organizations you think are worthy while you're alive. Spend it locally, would be my move, because that's where I live, that's the community I'm part of, and it'd be pretty cool to have built a park or a basketball court or a pool or a hospital or a school. But if I wait until I have $500M and I get hit by a bus, oh no, one of these other places might get it. 

 On top of this, it is forcing a person to lose his fortune that he has gained and demanding he do something good with it. 
So $200M isn't STILL a fortune? That's what you get to keep, which you'd be able to will in any way you saw fit. I know conservatives tend to hear ideas like this and then it's all "hope you like the bread line!" but honestly, that's lazy thinking and cynicism that doesn't serve to improve our country in any way. The bottom line for me is if you're not earning $50M a year, you should be enthusiastically in support of any sort of plan like the one I describe, because you're never going to be a billionaire. 
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Families in the bottom 20% of the income distribution experience 188% faster income growth during Democratic administrations.