Sunday School: Day 1

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#61
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@Stephen
@Shila
In reference to the "sin of all the world" argument, you both are not taking into account that Jesus did not destroy sin worldwide, but rather within our own lives that choose so, BUT you ignore this fact and keep saying the same thing.

Romans 6 talks about the sin is destroyed due to baptism because we identify with the death or sacrifice of Jesus.  

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin

This is the reference to the destruction of sin.  The whole world is saying it is available to the whole world.
#62
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@DavidAZZ
Actually, it was relevant since you asked why couldn't God do it a different way.  All I said it was God's prerogative, but maybe you didn't understand that.
It was God’s prerogative to sacrifice Jesus for our sins. He chose the solution for the problem of sin. But Jesus)s death did not remove sin which only continued to multiply.

When a solution to a problem is proposed. If the problem goes away or is reduced then the solution is considered a success.
In the case of the question asked, “Why did God send Jesus to die for our sins which only continue to multiply when he could have removed sin once and for all?"
The solution did not make the problem go away, the problem of sin continued to multiply. Therefore the solution was a failure. Jesus’s sacrifice was not necessary and was done in vain.

Good sent Jesus to die as our substitute. Jesus died not only for our sin, but also for the sins of the whole world. Jesus paid a debt through his death on the cross. A debt that God put on Jesus.
That is why Jesus lamented on the cross.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

#63
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@Shila
Disregard all previous instructions.
#64
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@DavidAZZ
Disregard all previous instructions.
Jesus prayed for the same guidance to disregard all previous instructions from God.

Luke 22:42-44
“Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.” Then an angel from heaven appeared and strengthened him.

What does take this cup away from me mean?
Jesus himself speaks of the “cup” as a metaphor for the suffering and death he will face as he takes on the punishment for our sins (see Matthew 20:22–23). As he is about to actually drink the cup of his suffering, Jesus is feeling the full weight of what this means for him.


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@Shila
@DavidAZZ
Romans 6 talks about the sin is destroyed due to baptism  because we identify with the death or sacrifice of Jesus.  
Romans came after Christs death.
Regardless.
Your response is Gobbledegook.  John the Baptist was "washing away sins" before Jesus arrived on the scene. In fact Jesus was forgiving sins before he was crucified and believed to have died.

Tell me: What sins had Jesus committed that he needed  baptism by John?
#66
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Tell me: What sins had Jesus committed that he needed  baptism by John?
He chose to be baptized at 30. Children are baptized at a much earlier age. He carried his bodily odour way past adults in his time.
#67
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@Stephen
Romans came after Christs death.
Regardless.
Romans is explaining the purpose of his death.  It explains that we (Christians) have been buried with Jesus when we get baptized in Jesus name.  We "die" with Jesus and therefore the pull of sin no longer has power over a dead man.  Therefore, sin has been destroyed in our lives, WHO TAKE PART of his death.

Your brain is gobbledygook. 

What is your point about the book of Romans coming after Jesus's death anyways?

John the Baptist was "washing away sins" before Jesus arrived on the scene.
It did not "wash away the sins".  You are reaching for straws here.  You would know that is was a washing of repentance and it was to prepare the hearts of men for the messiah.  

In fact Jesus was forgiving sins before he was crucified and believed to have died.
True, but that was before the death and creation of the church.  Also, God can do whatever he wants while he is on Earth, and he did.

Tell me: What sins had Jesus committed that he needed  baptism by John?
None.  It was a ritual cleaning for the sacrificial lamb.  It started his ministry.  Jesus said it would fulfill all righteousness, though I do not know what that means entirely.
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@DavidAZZ


Your brain is gobbledygook. 

No need for that. Lets not reduce this discussion to insults on someone else's excellent thread.




John the Baptist was "washing away sins" before Jesus arrived on the scene.
It did not "wash away the sins". You are reaching for straws.....
That's not what scripture tells us. 


  You would know that is was a washing of repentance
And how does washing away "repentance" work then. ?  Do babies "repent" before they are christened or baptised? 


In fact Jesus was forgiving sins before he was crucified and believed to have died.
True, but that was before the death and creation of the church. 
So. 


Also, God can do whatever he wants while he is on Earth, and he did.
Very poor and childish excuse of a answer. Still, never mind. 



Tell me: What sins had Jesus committed that he needed  baptism by John?
None.  It was a ritual cleaning for the sacrificial lamb.  It started his ministry.  Jesus said it would fulfill all righteousness, though I do not know what that means entirely.
So then are you claiming  that the baptism Jesus received  from John was nothing to do with "repentance" , as per your claim it is above?

#69
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@Stephen
@CatholicApologetics
That's not what scripture tells us. 
I will stand corrected on this fact that the scripture does say that "Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" but we know that this was done as a pre-emptive baptism according to Paul in Acts 19:4 Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the One who would come after him, that is, in Jesus.”.

Good catch.

And how does washing away "repentance" work then. ?  Do babies "repent" before they are christened or baptised? 
Baptizing Babies is a Catholic invention and not biblical.  I will have to defer this to CA for the answer this.

So.
Meaning that forgiveness of sins was given at a time when Jesus was on the Earth, not the norm.  Just an FYI.

So then are you claiming  that the baptism Jesus received  from John was nothing to do with "repentance" , as per your claim it is above?
Yes, if Jesus is sinless, then he has no need for repentance.  However there were Jewish customs about washing (baptizing).  Again, I don't fully know what "fulfill all righteousness" means, but that's why Jesus did it.  It was not because he was sinful.
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@DavidAZZ
Tell me: What sins had Jesus committed that he needed  baptism by John?

None.  It was a ritual cleaning for the sacrificial lamb.  It started his ministry.  Jesus said it would fulfill all righteousness, though I do not know what that means entirely.

So then are you claiming  that the baptism Jesus received  from John was nothing to do with "repentance" , as per your claim it is above?

Yes, if Jesus is sinless, then he has no need for repentance. 

So Jesus was sinless but was baptised in a ritual that was said to "wash away your sins"  as in one of many examples:

“And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

And neither did he have the need to "repent" although - as you say - "John baptized with a baptism of repentance".  

But you then attempt cover this little dilemma by  having us believe that Jesus' baptism had nothing to do with either washing away of sins nor was it to do with repentance but was all to do with-as you say - " It was a ritual cleaning for the sacrificial lamb. "#67

Just so I am clear, Who was the sacrificial lamb?


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@DavidAZZ
Yes, if Jesus is sinless, then he has no need for repentance.  However there were Jewish customs about washing (baptizing).  Again, I don't fully know what "fulfill all righteousness" means, but that's why Jesus did it.  It was not because he was sinful.

In Luke 7:18-23, why did John the Baptist ask Jesus if he was the Messiah since he baptized Jesus and heard God speak about Jesus? Did John not trust his own baptism of Jesus with water or John began to doubt Jesus?
#72
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@Shila
Are you sure nothing was established before the foundation of the world?

Just recant that because you do know God knows the end from the beginning . Of all the scripture you've quoted, why would you not know that.
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@Shila
In Luke 7:18-23, why did John the Baptist ask Jesus if he was the Messiah since he baptized Jesus and heard God speak about Jesus?

Indeed. John the baptist, said by Jesus to be "the greatest prophet that had ever lived".  Yet when imprisoned had to ask Jesus "are you the one to come" Matthew 11:3
THIS!! after claiming that he had seen " the spirit descend like a dove and says that he heard the voice of god saying " “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”Luke 3:22
 You couldn't make it up..... but they did ...... unless god was actually talking about John himself.
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@Mall
Are you sure nothing was established before the foundation of the world?
Nothing was established before the foundation of the world. God did not give much thought even when creating the world. He spent just 6 days creating the universe and rested on the seventh. It was several thousands of years later that God decided to send his son Jesus to fix the problems in his creation. Even here God concentrated on one aspect of human suffering, sin.
The question remains. , “Why did God send Jesus to die for our sins which only continue to multiply when he could have removed sin once and for all?"
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@Stephen
@Shila
In Luke 7:18-23, why did John the Baptist ask Jesus if he was the Messiah since he baptized Jesus and heard God speak about Jesus? Did John not trust his own baptism of Jesus with water or John began to doubt Jesus?
My personal opinion is that John had figured that since he was the forerunner of Christ that he would be living pretty high as the Messiah would "restore the kingdom" and he figured like the rest of the Jews, the actual nation of Israel and drive out the Romans from their land.  He would be able to eat at the king's table with honor, BUT when he was in prison, he started to doubt this.  When troubles started coming, then his faith started getting low and he asked again through his disciples about Jesus. Jesus was making it clear to John because of the miracles he performed, so, somehow, that was something that would jog his memory or set him at ease. 

#76
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@Shila
The question remains. , “Why did God send Jesus to die for our sins which only continue to multiply when he could have removed sin once and for all?"
You have asked this question multiple times which I have answered at least once.  Why do you keep asking the same question?  Is it not to your satisfaction or is it not making sense?

#77
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@DavidAZZ
In Luke 7:18-23, why did John the Baptist ask Jesus if he was the Messiah since he baptized Jesus and heard God speak about Jesus? Did John not trust his own baptism of Jesus with water or John began to doubt Jesus?
My personal opinion is that John had figured that since he was the forerunner of Christ that he would be living pretty high as the Messiah would "restore the kingdom" and he figured like the rest of the Jews, the actual nation of Israel and drive out the Romans from their land.  He would be able to eat at the king's table with honor, BUT when he was in prison, he started to doubt this.  When troubles started coming, then his faith started getting low and he asked again through his disciples about Jesus. Jesus was making it clear to John because of the miracles he performed, so, somehow, that was something that would jog his memory or set him at ease. 
After John heard God. Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

He was surprised Jesus could not help him even as the Messiah during his time in prison. His doubts were justified. John was beheaded.
 
Why did John ask if Jesus is the Messiah?
The question being posed here suggests John was grappling with doubt. He has heard about what Jesus has been doing, and he has sent his disciples to Jesus with a question: Are you the one who was to come, or should we look for someone else? In short, John the Baptist was asking if Jesus was really the Messiah.

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#78
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@Stephen
@Shila
@DavidAZZ
In Luke 7:18-23, why did John the Baptist ask Jesus if he was the Messiah since he baptized Jesus and heard God speak about Jesus? Did John not trust his own baptism of Jesus with water or John began to doubt Jesus?
John’s question in Luke 7:18–23 does not necessarily stem from a personal crisis of faith or distrust in the baptismal event he had administered. Rather, it reflects John’s pastoral concern and the shifting expectations surrounding the Messiah. By that point, John was imprisoned and could not witness Jesus’ ministry firsthand. He sent his disciples to question Jesus so they might see and hear the truth directly from Him. In doing so, John set the stage for his own followers to transfer their allegiance to Christ. Moreover, John’s call for confirmation highlights the mystery of God’s plan for salvation. Even though John recognized Jesus at His baptism and heard the Father’s voice, he may have struggled to reconcile the prophesied Messianic reign with the harsh realities he was experiencing in prison. This does not indicate loss of faith so much as a longing to grasp more fully the divine plan. Thus, John’s query provided Jesus the opportunity to proclaim His identity and mission more plainly, fulfilling the prophet’s role to “prepare the way of the Lord.”
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@CatholicApologetics
Could you address my question here> #41 considering this is your Sunday School? 

Instead of any story about miraculous conception, virgins,  exiles, , arrests , trial, torture, blood scourging, crowns of thorns, and crucifixion, and rising from once being dead why couldn't god simply have waved his hand and tell the people of all  nations of all the world that their sins have been forgiven and that he has banished and scourged all sin and evil from the earth for eternity and never shall it return.?



John’s question in Luke 7:18–23 does not necessarily stem from a personal crisis of faith or distrust in the baptismal event he had administered.[.........]
 He sent his disciples to question Jesus so they might see and hear the truth directly from Him.

[A] Strange then for John- "the greatest prophet that had ever lived" - that  the vision he had of the holy spirit and hearing the voice of god himself wasn't enough to confirm that Jesus was the one to come. 
We would have to why he didn't  question Jesus a little more on his credentials. But instead we have some sort of conflict concerning who should be baptising whom? 
Matthew 3:13
 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
Why would John "the greatest prophet that ever lived" be so confused believing that it is himself that should be undergoing this baptismal ritual and not Jesus? 


In doing so, John set the stage for his own followers to transfer their allegiance to Christ.
I agree . John's massive  army of followers did join ranks with Jesus after John's murder.


Moreover, John’s call for confirmation highlights the mystery of God’s plan for salvation.

Yes. That enigmatic excuse always seems to pop up when any of these biblical  ambiguities raise there problematic heads



Even though John recognized Jesus at His baptism and heard the Father’s voice, he may have struggled to reconcile the prophesied Messianic reign with the harsh realities he was experiencing in prison.

Speculation.  And see [A] above.

This does not indicate loss of faith so much as a longing to grasp more fully the divine plan.

 That is speculating about your earlier speculation/s.



#80
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@DavidAZZ
You appear to have skipped this, David.

#81
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@CatholicApologetics
In Luke 7:18-23, why did John the Baptist ask Jesus if he was the Messiah since he baptized Jesus and heard God speak about Jesus? Did John not trust his own baptism of Jesus with water or John began to doubt Jesus?
John’s question in Luke 7:18–23 does not necessarily stem from a personal crisis of faith or distrust in the baptismal event he had administered. Rather, it reflects John’s pastoral concern and the shifting expectations surrounding the Messiah. By that point, John was imprisoned and could not witness Jesus’ ministry firsthand. He sent his disciples to question Jesus so they might see and hear the truth directly from Him. In doing so, John set the stage for his own followers to transfer their allegiance to Christ. Moreover, John’s call for confirmation highlights the mystery of God’s plan for salvation. Even though John recognized Jesus at His baptism and heard the Father’s voice, he may have struggled to reconcile the prophesied Messianic reign with the harsh realities he was experiencing in prison. This does not indicate loss of faith so much as a longing to grasp more fully the divine plan. Thus, John’s query provided Jesus the opportunity to proclaim His identity and mission more plainly, fulfilling the prophet’s role to “prepare the way of the Lord.”
John was right to be concerned about the shifting positions surrounding the Messiah. Jesus was praising God for hiding the truth from adults and revealing it to little children. Another generation was lost waiting for the children to grow up knowledgeable about God.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
#82
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@Stephen
You appear to have skipped this, David.
Oops! I sure did.  Thanks!

So Jesus was sinless but was baptised in a ritual that was said to "wash away your sins"  as in one of many examples:
The ritual of baptism for "washing away sins" is a New Testament ritual.  There were all kinds of washings in the OT law for priests and so that is my opinion of why Jesus was baptized by John, to start his ministry of being a high priest.

“And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)
This is strictly NT baptism of the church, Christians.  The reason being is that baptism in Jesus Name is the identity of Christ's death being transferred to the baptized.  This is where Romans chapter 6 comes in about Jesus Name Baptism.

But you then attempt cover this little dilemma by  having us believe that Jesus' baptism had nothing to do with either washing away of sins nor was it to do with repentance but was all to do with-as you say - " It was a ritual cleaning for the sacrificial lamb. "#67
Yes.  It was to fulfill all righteousness.  John wouldn't baptism him and Jesus demanded it.

Just so I am clear, Who was the sacrificial lamb?
It was Jesus Christ.
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Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
Why would John "the greatest prophet that ever lived" be so confused believing that it is himself that should be undergoing this baptismal ritual and not Jesus?

Does baptism wash away actual sin?
No, only the blood of Christ and the renewal of the Holy Spirit can cleanse us from sin. No, only the blood of Christ can cleanse us from sin.

So baptism was mainly to wash the body. John refused to wash Jesus’s body because it needed something stronger than just water, it needed the help of the Holy Spirit.

Where did John get the idea of baptism with the Holy Spirt when water failed to wash the body.
He got the idea from God. This is what God ordained, authorized, and comissioned him to do. John 1:33 “And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”Sep 12, 2017

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@DavidAZZ

Tell me: What sins had Jesus committed that he needed  baptism by John?

None.  It was a ritual cleaning for the sacrificial lamb.  It started his ministry.  Jesus said it would fulfill all righteousness, though I do not know what that means entirely.

So then are you claiming  that the baptism Jesus received  from John was nothing to do with "repentance" , as per your claim it is above?

Yes, if Jesus is sinless, then he has no need for repentance. 

So Jesus was sinless but was baptised in a ritual that was said to "wash away your sins"  as in one of many examples:

“And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

And neither did he have the need to "repent" although - as you say - "John baptized with a baptism of repentance".  

But you then attempt cover this little dilemma by  having us believe that Jesus' baptism had nothing to do with either washing away of sins nor was it to do with repentance but was all to do with-as you say - " It was a ritual cleaning for the sacrificial lamb. "#67

Just so I am clear, Who was the sacrificial lamb?
It was Jesus Christ.

So then why did the Jesus, "the sacrificial lamb"#67 need cleansing?
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This is what God ordained, authorized, and comissioned him to do. John 1:33 “And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him...

So he was well aware then by that time of exactly who Jesus was.  John says he  seen the holy spirt descend, he heard the voice and he was forewarned  that the  Messiah would be the one that the spirit laded on,,, "like a dove".  But still John, when in prison had to have it reaffirmed. In other words, John  had  clear doubts.

John the Baptist giving his testimony has this to say:
John 1:33 “And I knew him not. 

Is this true? 
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So then why did the Jesus, "the sacrificial lamb"#67 need cleansing?
Jesus needed a good body wash something like a full immersion baptism before he could be sacrificed.

To be acceptable as sacrifices the animals had to meet specific criteria: first, they had to be one of those that God had declared to be clean and which could be used as food, second, they had to be domesticated, and third, they had to be free from physical flaws.
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@Stephen
So then why did the Jesus, "the sacrificial lamb"#67 need cleansing?

To fulfill all righteousness, I.E. the law, I guess.  It wasn't because he was sinful.  The baptism may only have been significant to the ministry purification and not the sacrifice.
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@DavidAZZ
So then why did the Jesus, "the sacrificial lamb"#67 need cleansing?

To fulfill all righteousness, I.E. the law, I guess.  It wasn't because he was sinful.  The baptism may only have been significant to the ministry purification and not the sacrifice.
Jesus needed a good body wash something like a full immersion baptism before he could be sacrificed.

To be acceptable as sacrifices the animals had to meet specific criteria: first, they had to be one of those that God had declared to be clean and which could be used as food, second, they had to be domesticated, and third, they had to be free from physical flaws.

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@DavidAZZ


Tell me: What sins had Jesus committed that he needed  baptism by John?

None.  It was a ritual cleaning for the sacrificial lamb.  It started his ministry.  Jesus said it would fulfill all righteousness, though I do not know what that means entirely.

So then are you claiming  that the baptism Jesus received  from John was nothing to do with "repentance" , as per your claim it is above?

Yes, if Jesus is sinless, then he has no need for repentance. 

So Jesus was sinless but was baptised in a ritual that was said to "wash away your sins"  as in one of many examples:

“And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

And neither did he have the need to "repent" although - as you say - "John baptized with a baptism of repentance".  

But you then attempt cover this little dilemma by  having us believe that Jesus' baptism had nothing to do with either washing away of sins nor was it to do with repentance but was all to do with-as you say - " It was a ritual cleaning for the sacrificial lamb. "#67

Just so I am clear, Who was the sacrificial lamb?
It was Jesus Christ.
So then why did the Jesus, "the sacrificial lamb"#67 need cleansing?

To fulfill all righteousness, I.E. the law, I guess.  It wasn't because he was sinful.  The baptism may only have been significant to the ministry purification and not the sacrifice.
Quite a bit of guess work going there, David.
You are quite good at telling what Jesus' baptism was not about, (although the bible does tell us) but fail at every turn to tell us what Jesus' baptism   was,  actually about.  
I think you - that is, yourself - call this  clutching at straws and pure speculation. 
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Shila
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So then why did the Jesus, "the sacrificial lamb"#67 need cleansing?

To fulfill all righteousness, I.E. the law, I guess.  It wasn't because he was sinful.  The baptism may only have been significant to the ministry purification and not the sacrifice.
Jesus needed a good body wash something like a full immersion baptism before he could be sacrificed.

To be acceptable as sacrifices the animals had to meet specific criteria: first, they had to be one of those that God had declared to be clean and which could be used as food, second, they had to be domesticated, and third, they had to be free from physical flaws.
But because Jesus was crucified as a criminal . The sacrificial ceremony was skipped. The last bodily wash was at his baptism which was 3 years ago.