The trinity doctrine.

Author: Mall

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@MAV99
am backed by the Catholic Church.
No you are not. What you said "God the Father is the Son and The Holy Spirit" is explicitly condemned in the Council of Nicea.
I stick to my Catholic teachings which match St Thomas Aquinas.
Therefore God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit, and that these are not three but one God.

1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one

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@Shila
Thomas Aquinas quote: Therefore God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit, and that these are not three but one God.
Where is the reference for this?
Do you have one?
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@Shila
Summa Theologica Prima Pars, Question 31, article 2.
Read the Respondeo. St. Thomas condemns what you said.
Go read it. I gave you the reference. 
If you want, I can even take a picture from my own copy of the Summa and send it to you.
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@MAV99
Thomas Aquinas quote: Therefore God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit, and that these are not three but one God.
Where is the reference for this?
Do you have one?
It is in the first paragraph of the link you provided. Doesn’t look like you read it yourself.

A Summa of the Summa | Part 1, The Holy Trinity : Faith (The Divine Trinity) | Summary
Summary
St. Thomas Aquinas begins his teaching on the Trinity by asserting that "God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit," and that these are not three but one God.

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@Shila
God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit...
 does not say the same thing as:

God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit...
The first says there is no real distinction in Persons.
The second says All 3 Persons have the same nature.

Doesn’t look like you read it yourself.
Doesn't look like you can read.

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@MAV99
Summa Theologica Prima Pars, Question 31, article 2.
Read the Respondeo. St. Thomas condemns what you said.
Go read it. I gave you the reference. 
If you want, I can even take a picture from my own copy of the Summa and send it to you.
Your source should be the Bible and Jesus.

How did Jesus explain the Trinity?
Early Christians thought Jesus first referred to the Trinity in Matthew 28:19, by stating, "in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." In John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The belief in the Holy Trinity emerged during the life and/or shortly after the death and resurrection of ...

Did Jesus talk about the Holy Trinity?
He did not specifically refer to the term Trinity but did describe God in what we would call trinitarian terms or formulations. Jesus described God as "the Father", he described himself as God's son, and one with God the Father, and described the Holy Spirit as somehow proceeding from both the Father and himself.


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@Shila
Your source should be the Bible and Jesus.
The authority behind the bible is the Catholic Church who has the mission to safeguard its true meaning. If the Church gives approval to someone's interpretation and explanation as they have with St. Thomas Aquinas, that interpretation and explanation is accepted as an authority right after the bible and carries the weight of the Church's authority. That is why they put the Summa Theologica on the Altar with the bible at the beginning of the Council of Trent.


So unless you want to deny The Church's authority, you might want to think twice about throwing out St. Thomas' work. I think he knows better than you do.
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@MAV99
So unless you want to deny The Church's authority, you might want to think twice about throwing out St. Thomas' work. I think he knows better than you do.

Read your Bible.

John 14:26
The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and make you remember all that I have told you



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@Shila
Read your Bible.
I do.

I think I will stick with an actually approved Theologian of the Catholic Church to explain the teaching that the Catholic Church safeguards regarding the Bible.
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We've currently 1 billion Christians in the top 100 of allllll time at scripture translating. 

I bet some of you guys think your in the top 10.  
There would be hundreds of thousands of Christians in the top 10. 
Anddddddddd
Prob 100,000 Christians are the best of allllllllll time. 

Thats just Ace Christians. 

I wonder what it might be that you make ya god tell you next. 

The trinity come about simply to make another group. 
A INST CULT if you will. 
 Change one thing,  start a little  group. 
The Christian are known for that shit. 
TIMES 30K.

Once you get ya group up and running  , its simply 10 cents from every player. 

Strict for profit. 



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@MAV99
Read your Bible.
I do.

I think I will stick with an actually approved Theologian of the Catholic Church to explain the teaching that the Catholic Church safeguards regarding the Bible
Are you going to ignore Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Read your Bible and follow what it says.

John 14:26
The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and make you remember all that I have told you

Mall
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@Jesusistheway
"I believe you can see what I am saying in scripture, given that I have mainly used scripture to back up what I am saying. "

Don't believe I can see it , believe that I can read it. I have not read what you've said. Like the scripture said if any man speak , let him speak the oracles of God .

"Technically yes, the Holy Spirit isn't THE third. You could arrange the trinity any way you see fit. It is one God after all. There's no hierarchy in the Godhead. 
But in scripture the Holy Spirit is referred to as Lord."

That's another issue. Forget technically but scripturally. There is no arranging of God. Scripture say to speak according to as it is written, unto us there is one God the Father. 

First John 5 and 7 discusses that one God the Father. There is no time where God is not the Father. That's what has to be accepted from the scripture.

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@Shila
Are you going to ignore Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
God will give you the grace if you do your part.

God does not just drop knowledge into our brains. We have to do our part in studying and reading what other great saints have said and done before us.

God also expects us to follow the teaching of the Catholic Church because He gave Her the authority to do so. He expects us to study and love our faith.

You have a Sola Scriptura attitude which is a protestant attitude.
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@Mall
Don't believe I can see it , believe that I can read it. I have not read what you've said. Like the scripture said if any man speak , let him speak the oracles of God .
With all due respect, if you aren't going to read what I say, then I don't see any purpose continuing the discussion. 
The verse you are referring to here is 1 Peter 4, which again says,"

"The end of all things is near. Therefore, be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen."
1 Peter 4:7-11

I don't know how exactly you are interpreting this passage to help your case, so I will therefore not assume your interpretation. 
However, I will establish how this specific verse (1 Peter 4:11) should be read as. 

This verse is not commanding believers to speak only using the Word(s) of God. It is saying "If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God." Implying that we should speak carefully, and we should not just be careless with our words. 
In other words, your words are super important, so act as if the words you are speaking are from God. 

That's another issue. Forget technically but scripturally. There is no arranging of God.
Ok fine. Scripturally, yes, the Holy Spirit isn't THE third. You could arrange the trinity any way you see fit.

Scripture say to speak according to as it is written, unto us there is one God the Father. 
You do know it is also written in John 10:30:
"I and the Father are one.”

Jesus is saying, he and the Father (referring to God) are one. Do you have a better alternative to interpret this?

First John 5 and 7 discusses that one God the Father. There is no time where God is not the Father. That's what has to be accepted from the scripture.
Yes. There is no time where God is not the Father. There also is no time where God is not the Son, and there is no time where God is not the Holy Spirit. 
That is the Nature of God. The Trinity. 

That is what has to be accepted from Scripture. 
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@Jesusistheway
Of course I'm reading. That's why I'm able to respond with the admonition.

It is you that I have to say as what Phillip I believe said to the eunuch. Do you understand what thou readeth?

That is reading what I've stated. How can you except some man teach you?

Now I won't say I'm that man but consider what I say .
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@MAV99
So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus.
Your post#98
You here are using language that implies sameness between two persons. You have to be careful. It would be better to say it as "God is a Trinity of three Persons. God the Son became Man and The Holy Spirit is the Comforter or Paraclete."

Like I said, I do not think you intend heresy. But I think you are using language that is ambiguous and leads one to think that there is a sameness between two persons. That is why I brought in Modalism. That is the type of language they used when discussing this. You have to be careful how you say it.
St Thomas Aquinas sees the same sameness in the Trinity.

Aquinas says that the alleged consequence would follow only if the persons were the same both in thing and in concept. But they are not; they are merely the same thing.
This move is puzzling. Aquinas holds that the three are not merely similar or derived from the same source, but are in some strong sense the same, but not identical (i.e. numerically the same) which he appears to understand as sameness in both thing and concept. Even this last is surprising; one would think that for Aquinas “sameness in thing” just is identity, and that “sameness in concept” would mean that we apply the same concept to some apparent things (whether or not they are in fact one or many). Christopher Hughes holds that Aquinas is simply confused, his desire for orthodoxy having led him into this (and other) necessary falsehoods. On Hughes’s reading, Aquinas does think of “sameness in thing” as identity, but he incoherently holds it to be non-transitive (i.e. if A and B are identical, and B and C are identical, it doesn’t follow that A and C are identical), while in some contexts assuming (correctly) that it is transitive (Hughes 1989, 217–40).

Shila
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@MAV99

Are you going to ignore Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
God will give you the grace if you do your part. 

God does not just drop knowledge into our brains. We have to do our part in studying and reading what other great saints have said and done before us.

God also expects us to follow the teaching of the Catholic Church because He gave Her the authority to do so. He expects us to study and love our faith.

You have a Sola Scriptura attitude which is a protestant attitude.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit teaches us all things.

When Jesus was living on the earth He talked about sending the Holy Spirit to teach us all things. John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. The Holy Spirit teaches us all things.
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@Shila
Aquinas says that the alleged consequence would follow only if the persons were the same both in thing and in concept. But they are not; they are merely the same thing.
This move is puzzling. Aquinas holds that the three are not merely similar or derived from the same source, but are in some strong sense the same, but not identical (i.e. numerically the same) which he appears to understand as sameness in both thing and concept. Even this last is surprising; one would think that for Aquinas “sameness in thing” just is identity, and that “sameness in concept” would mean that we apply the same concept to some apparent things (whether or not they are in fact one or many). Christopher Hughes holds that Aquinas is simply confused, his desire for orthodoxy having led him into this (and other) necessary falsehoods. On Hughes’s reading, Aquinas does think of “sameness in thing” as identity, but he incoherently holds it to be non-transitive (i.e. if A and B are identical, and B and C are identical, it doesn’t follow that A and C are identical), while in some contexts assuming (correctly) that it is transitive (Hughes 1989, 217–40).
I have heard of Professor Hughes and there are many Thomists who disagree with him on his understanding of Thomistic Doctrine.
Gardail
Grenier
Hugon
to name a few...

I answer that, Since as Jerome remarks [In substance, Ep. lvii.], a heresy arises from words wrongly used, when we speak of the Trinity we must proceed with care and with befitting modesty; because, as Augustine says (De Trin. i, 3), "nowhere is error more harmful, the quest more toilsome, the finding more fruitful." Now, in treating of the Trinity, we must beware of two opposite errors, and proceed cautiously between them—namely, the error of Arius, who placed a Trinity of substance with the Trinity of persons; and the error of Sabellius, who placed unity of person with the unity of essence.
Thus, to avoid the error of Arius we must shun the use of the terms diversity and difference in God, lest we take away the unity of essence: we may, however, use the term "distinction" on account of the relative opposition. Hence whenever we find terms of "diversity" or "difference" of Persons used in an authentic work, these terms of "diversity" or "difference" are taken to mean "distinction." But lest the simplicity and singleness of the divine essence be taken away, the terms "separation" and "division," which belong to the parts of a whole, are to be avoided: and lest quality be taken away, we avoid the use of the term "disparity": and lest we remove similitude, we avoid the terms "alien" and "discrepant." For Ambrose says (De Fide i) that "in the Father and the Son there is no discrepancy, but one Godhead": and according to Hilary, as quoted above, "in God there is nothing alien, nothing separable."
To avoid the heresy of Sabellius, we must shun the term "singularity," lest we take away the communicability of the divine essence. Hence Hilary says (De Trin. vii): "It is sacrilege to assert that the Father and the Son are separate in Godhead." We must avoid the adjective "only" [unici] lest we take away the number of persons. Hence Hilary says in the same book: "We exclude from God the idea of singularity or uniqueness." Nevertheless, we say "the only Son," for in God there is no plurality of Sons. Yet, we do not say "the only God," for the Deity is common to several. We avoid the word "confused," lest we take away from the Persons the order of their nature. Hence Ambrose says (De Fide i): "What is one is not confused; and there is no multiplicity where there is no difference." The word "solitary" is also to be avoided, lest we take away the society of the three persons; for, as Hilary says (De Trin. iv), "We confess neither a solitary nor a diverse God."
This word "other" [alius], however, in the masculine sense, means only a distinction of "suppositum"; and hence we can properly say that "the Son is other than the Father," because He is another "suppositum" of the divine nature, as He is another person and another hypostasis.
St. Thomas is very clear here, if you understand the terms he is using from philosophy. The Persons are distinct and not each other.
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Your post#98
You here are using language that implies sameness between two persons. You have to be careful. It would be better to say it as "God is a Trinity of three Persons. God the Son became Man and The Holy Spirit is the Comforter or Paraclete."

Like I said, I do not think you intend heresy. But I think you are using language that is ambiguous and leads one to think that there is a sameness between two persons. That is why I brought in Modalism. That is the type of language they used when discussing this. You have to be careful how you say it.
St Thomas Aquinas sees the same sameness in the Trinity.

St. Thomas is very clear here, if you understand the terms he is using from philosophy. The Persons are distinct and not each other.
Firstly we are discussing theology and not philosophy. The word distinct does not appear in St Thomas Aquinas thesis. The word same/sameness is repeated throughout his article. Repeated below:

St Thomas Aquinas sees the same sameness in the Trinity.

Aquinas says that the alleged consequence would follow only if the persons were the same both in thing and in concept. But they are not; they are merely the same thing.
This move is puzzling. Aquinas holds that the three are not merely similar or derived from the same source, but are in some strong sense the same, but not identical (i.e. numerically the same) which he appears to understand as sameness in both thing and concept. Even this last is surprising; one would think that for Aquinas “sameness in thing” just is identity, and that “sameness in concept” would mean that we apply the same concept to some apparent things (whether or not they are in fact one or many). Christopher Hughes holds that Aquinas is simply confused, his desire for orthodoxy having led him into this (and other) necessary falsehoods. On Hughes’s reading, Aquinas does think of “sameness in thing” as identity, but he incoherently holds it to be non-transitive (i.e. if A and B are identical, and B and C are identical, it doesn’t follow that A and C are identical), while in some contexts assuming (correctly) that it is transitive (Hughes 1989, 217–40).



Shila
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@MAV99
I have heard of Professor Hughes and there are many Thomists who disagree with him on his understanding of Thomistic Doctrine.
Gardail
Grenier
Hugon
to name a few...

I answer that, Since as Jerome remarks [In substance, Ep. lvii.], a heresy arises from words wrongly used, when we speak of the Trinity we must proceed with care and with befitting modesty; because, as Augustine says (De Trin. i, 3), "nowhere is error more harmful, the quest more toilsome, the finding more fruitful." Now, in treating of the Trinity, we must beware of two opposite errors, and proceed cautiously between them—namely, the error of Arius, who placed a Trinity of substance with the Trinity of persons; and the error of Sabellius, who placed unity of person with the unity of essence.
Thus, to avoid the error of Arius we must shun the use of the terms diversity and difference in God, lest we take away the unity of essence: we may, however, use the term "distinction" on account of the relative opposition. Hence whenever we find terms of "diversity" or "difference" of Persons used in an authentic work, these terms of "diversity" or "difference" are taken to mean "distinction." But lest the simplicity and singleness of the divine essence be taken away, the terms "separation" and "division," which belong to the parts of a whole, are to be avoided: and lest quality be taken away, we avoid the use of the term "disparity": and lest we remove similitude, we avoid the terms "alien" and "discrepant." For Ambrose says (De Fide i) that "in the Father and the Son there is no discrepancy, but one Godhead": and according to Hilary, as quoted above, "in God there is nothing alien, nothing separable."
To avoid the heresy of Sabellius, we must shun the term "singularity," lest we take away the communicability of the divine essence. Hence Hilary says (De Trin. vii): "It is sacrilege to assert that the Father and the Son are separate in Godhead." We must avoid the adjective "only" [unici] lest we take away the number of persons. Hence Hilary says in the same book: "We exclude from God the idea of singularity or uniqueness." Nevertheless, we say "the only Son," for in God there is no plurality of Sons. Yet, we do not say "the only God," for the Deity is common to several. We avoid the word "confused," lest we take away from the Persons the order of their nature. Hence Ambrose says (De Fide i): "What is one is not confused; and there is no multiplicity where there is no difference." The word "solitary" is also to be avoided, lest we take away the society of the three persons; for, as Hilary says (De Trin. iv), "We confess neither a solitary nor a diverse God."
This word "other" [alius], however, in the masculine sense, means only a distinction of "suppositum"; and hence we can properly say that "the Son is other than the Father," because He is another "suppositum" of the divine nature, as He is another person and another hypostasis.
This does not address St Thomas Aquinas use of the word same/sameness in describing the Trinity.

St Thomas Aquinas sees the same sameness in the Trinity.

Aquinas says that the alleged consequence would follow only if the persons were the same both in thing and in concept. But they are not; they are merely the same thing.
This move is puzzling. Aquinas holds that the three are not merely similar or derived from the same source, but are in some strong sense the same, but not identical (i.e. numerically the same) which he appears to understand as sameness in both thing and concept. Even this last is surprising; one would think that for Aquinas “sameness in thing” just is identity, and that “sameness in concept” would mean that we apply the same concept to some apparent things (whether or not they are in fact one or many). Christopher Hughes holds that Aquinas is simply confused, his desire for orthodoxy having led him into this (and other) necessary falsehoods. On Hughes’s reading, Aquinas does think of “sameness in thing” as identity, but he incoherently holds it to be non-transitive (i.e. if A and B are identical, and B and C are identical, it doesn’t follow that A and C are identical), while in some contexts assuming (correctly) that it is transitive (Hughes 1989, 217–40).

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@Shila
Firstly we are discussing theology and not philosophy. The word distinct does not appear in St Thomas Aquinas thesis. The word same/sameness is repeated throughout his article.
All of Theology is studied under the light of philosophy. If it isn't it becomes sentimental.

This does not address St Thomas Aquinas use of the word same/sameness in describing the Trinity.
He is using that idea in the Respondeo. Do you know how to follow ideas when you read? Just because he is not using the term "sameness" does not mean he is not talking about it.
St Thomas Aquinas sees the same sameness in the Trinity.
In divinity, not in personhood
Aquinas says that the alleged consequence would follow only if the persons were the same both in thing and in concept. But they are not; they are merely the same thing.
This move is puzzling. Aquinas holds that the three are not merely similar or derived from the same source, but are in some strong sense the same, but not identical (i.e. numerically the same) which he appears to understand as sameness in both thing and concept. Even this last is surprising; one would think that for Aquinas “sameness in thing” just is identity, and that “sameness in concept” would mean that we apply the same concept to some apparent things (whether or not they are in fact one or many). Christopher Hughes holds that Aquinas is simply confused, his desire for orthodoxy having led him into this (and other) necessary falsehoods. On Hughes’s reading, Aquinas does think of “sameness in thing” as identity, but he incoherently holds it to be non-transitive (i.e. if A and B are identical, and B and C are identical, it doesn’t follow that A and C are identical), while in some contexts assuming (correctly) that it is transitive (Hughes 1989, 217–40).
You can copy and paste and bold all you want. Hughes is profoundly missing the point as so many other Thomists philosophers have pointed out. 

Lets do a little experiment:

means only a distinction of "suppositum";
What does this mean? Do you know? Do you actually understand what he is saying here?

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@MAV99
All of Theology is studied under the light of philosophy. If it isn't it becomes sentimental.
Theology is the study of religious belief from a religious perspective, with a focus on the nature of divinity. It is taught as an academic discipline, typically in universities and seminaries.[1] It occupies itself with the unique content of analyzing the supernatural, but also deals with religious epistemology, asks and seeks to answer the question of revelation. Revelation pertains to the acceptance of Godgods, or deities, as not only transcendent or above the natural world, but also willing and able to interact with the natural world and to reveal themselves to humankind.
Theologians use various forms of analysis and argument (experientialphilosophicalethnographichistorical, and others) to help understandexplain, test, critique, defend or promote any myriad of religious topics. As in philosophy of ethicsand case law, arguments often assume the existence of previously resolved questions, and develop by making analogies from them to draw new inferences in new situations.
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@Mall
@Shila
@MAV99
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

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@MAV99
means only a distinction of "suppositum";
What does this mean? Do you know? Do you actually understand what he is saying here?
Difference between what is true as an assumption.

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@MAV99
God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit...
 does not say the same thing as:
It says God is the father, is the son and is the Holy Spirit.
That is the same as God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit. There is only one God, but there are three persons Father, son and Holy Spirit.
God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit...
The first says there is no real distinction in Persons.
The second says All 3 Persons have the same nature.
If all 3 persons have the same nature. There is no distinction in persons, they have the same nature.
Doesn’t look like you read it yourself.
Doesn't look like you can read.
You cannot even grasp the concept of the Trinity.
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@Mall
I'm not entirely confident that I understand this last response to me, given your quotations aren't in "quotation marks", and the response is somewhat all over the place. 

If you need to you can re-respond to me with better format. 
MAV99
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@Shila
Difference between what is true as an assumption.
No. That is not what it means. That is most certainly not what St. Thomas means either.

God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit...
does not mean:

God is the father,
Do you speak English?!?!?!?!




If all 3 persons have the same nature. There is no distinction in persons, they have the same nature.
Wrong again showing you are either making stuff up and doing google searches to try and justify yourself. Nature is not the same thing as personhood. You and I have the same nature, but we are not the same person.
You cannot even grasp the concept of the Trinity.
I never said I could. Nor did I say anything that says I have. 

MAV99
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@Shila
means only a distinction of "suppositum";
He is speaking here of a suppositum which is a philosophical concept that means a real distinct being having a nature. You and I are suppositums of a human nature.

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@MAV99
Difference between what is true as an assumption.
No. That is not what it means. That is most certainly not what St. Thomas means either.
Suppositum Definition: Something supposed to be true; an assumption. Suppositum Latin From the past participle of supponere, to suppose.
He is speaking here of a suppositum which is a philosophical concept that means a real distinct being having a nature. You and I are suppositums of a human nature.
He does not even mention nature in the article. He is comparing what is an assumption and what is true

God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit...
does not mean:

God is the father,
Do you speak English?!?!?!?!
You did not complete the sentence God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit. God the father means god is the father.


If all 3 persons have the same nature. There is no distinction in persons, they have the same nature.
Wrong again showing you are either making stuff up and doing google searches to try and justify yourself. Nature is not the same thing as personhood. You and I have the same nature, but we are not the same person.
Read your description of persons below:
You wrote: “The first says there is no real distinction in Persons.”
“The second says All 3 Persons have the same nature.”

You are saying there is no distinction in persons. All three have the same nature.
You cannot even grasp the concept of the Trinity.
I never said I could. Nor did I say anything that says I have. 
Here you admit you cannot even grasp the concept of the Trinity.
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@Shila
Suppositum Definition: Something supposed to be true; an assumption. Suppositum Latin From the past participle of supponere, to suppose.
No. That is not what it means.
Sub ponere. To be placed under.
It developed into the latin word supponere which has the primary meaning of "to place under"
Which transfered to the philosophical meaning of that which is placed under the appearances of something or substance. In other words: what the thing is. Which is determined by nature. So yes,
He was talking about nature. St. Thomas assumes you have already read his philosophical works and can tell when he is talking about certain concepts in A treatise about God. Which further points to the fact that you haven't studied this, because you don't understand what is being said.
You did not complete the sentence God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit. God the father means god is the father.
"God the Father" is the combination of words referring to the First person of the Trinity.

"God is the Father" means we are applying a nature to a person.
THEY DO NOT MEAN THE SAME THING.

This tells me you haven't studied the basic philosophy and logic or theology behind this.

The first says there is no real distinction in Persons.”
This is referring to what YOU said.