If Christianity was true, would you become a Christian?

Author: CatholicApologetics

Posts

Total: 78
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,177
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@IlDiavolo
If christianity were true, then all the religions would be false, which means more than 2/3 of the world population would go to hell. 

That'd be the most fvcking stupid and unjust statement that someone would ever say.
How about Jesus saying he was going to save the world?  It’s Christianity that wants to be exclusive.

Did Jesus say that he came to save the world?
And in John 3:16–18, Jesus said: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

CatholicApologetics
CatholicApologetics's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 120
0
2
8
CatholicApologetics's avatar
CatholicApologetics
0
2
8
-->
@Shila
Yes, Jesus did say that He came to save the world, not to condemn it. In John 3:16–18, He proclaims that God the Father sent Him out of love for all humanity, extending a universal invitation to salvation. He assures us that “whoever believes in Him” will gain eternal life. This demonstrates that salvation in Christ is broadly offered to everyone, not restricted by ethnicity, social standing, or any other human classification. At the same time, Jesus’ words call for a response: to believe in Him as Savior and to follow His teachings. The emphasis is not on excluding people, but on affirming that God’s grace and truth come specifically through His only-begotten Son. Far from being closed-off, the Church sees this teaching as “catholic,” meaning universal, because it is meant for all. It is an invitation open to every human person—yet an invitation that must be freely accepted. Hence, while Christ alone is the way of salvation, His arms are stretched wide for the entire world.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,298
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@CatholicApologetics
The character Jesus, may have existed for a short while in a small region of the planet, and was relevant to a small group of associates.

And a nuisance to others.

Elaborating tales and creating myths is what it is.

And to this day, the nature of the beast allows it to become either a conditioned believer, or a conditioned non-believer.


If the tale were true, then that would be that.

But we don't know that, so that's that.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,177
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@CatholicApologetics
Yes, Jesus did say that He came to save the world, not to condemn it. In John 3:16–18, He proclaims that God the Father sent Him out of love for all humanity, extending a universal invitation to salvation. He assures us that “whoever believes in Him” will gain eternal life. This demonstrates that salvation in Christ is broadly offered to everyone, not restricted by ethnicity, social standing, or any other human classification. At the same time, Jesus’ words call for a response: to believe in Him as Savior and to follow His teachings. The emphasis is not on excluding people, but on affirming that God’s grace and truth come specifically through His only-begotten Son. Far from being closed-off, the Church sees this teaching as “catholic,” meaning universal, because it is meant for all. It is an invitation open to every human person—yet an invitation that must be freely accepted. Hence, while Christ alone is the way of salvation, His arms are stretched wide for the entire world.
Jesus’s original mission was more limited.
It is recorded in Matthew 15: 24 “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” Remember, God chose the Israelite's as his own and He was their God. If you were drawn to God, you didn't remain a Gentile and worship God, you were circumcised as a male and became Jewish.

Jesus expanded his mission after his resurrection. After he was rejected by the Jews and crucified. So the Jews should be credited for changing Jesus’s mind and not the Romans who crucified him.
Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,474
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Shila
Faith doesn't earn us salvation. It doesn't give us salvation. But the person without faith will not be saved. It is a gift.  You are saved by grace through faith. And that is a gift. 

Of course everything is possible for a person who believes. But for the person who has no faith or does not believe - it is not possible. And in your view - a person without faith cannot suddenly become a man of faith by himself. He needs the Spirit of God to regenerate him and give him faith. And then he will believe. 
To begin with you have to have belief in Jesus.

What do we need to believe about Jesus?
What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? 
This means acknowledging that he is not just a good teacher or a prophet, but rather he is the Savior of the world who came to give his life for us. By believing in Jesus as the Son of God, confessing and repenting of our sins, we can experience the forgiveness and salvation that he offers.

What did Jesus teach about faith? By simply believing in Jesus everything is possible.
“Everything is possible for one who believes.” (John 11:25-26) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.

How is salvation granted?
According to the Bible, all humans are born with a sinful nature and are separated from God. However, through faith in Jesus Christ, we can be saved from our sins and reconciled with God. This salvation is described as a gift from God that cannot be earned through good deeds or actions, but only through believing in Jesus.
The problem dear Shila, is that the unspiritual person cannot understand spiritual matters. Therefore the non-believer cannot suddenly believe or acknowledge anything about Jesus that is spiritually discerned. I could tell you or try and explain it to you all day long, but you wouldn't believe that Jesus is the saviour of the world. 

To repent of your sins means you must believe you are a sinner. You must believe that God is greaved by Sin. You must understand that sin puts you into a situation that separates you from God. And indeed in a place that makes you incapable of understanding that you have sinned. the non-believer doesn't believe sin is a real thing. They don't believe it makes any difference. They believe that if God would put people into hell for sinning, then God is an idiot. Or a war mongerer or stupid or hateful.  

so therefore for you to say that people can just believe is a nonsense. There needs to be a work in the heart before the person can believe. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.  Hearing is more than just listening with your ears - it is in the same line of thinking that Jesus meant when he said - "he who has ears to hear will understand". People need spiritual ears. 

You don't have spiritual ears. You have no idea what you are spouting.  To believe in Jesus means you must reject EVERY other religion and every other god. To say you can believe in all of them - proves you don't believe. For if you believed, then you wouldn't make such a simple mistake. 

Acknowledging is more than just saying a few words - it is a change of doing things. I do pray that God will change your heart. But presently you lack spiritual discernment. 



Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,177
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Tradesecret
so therefore for you to say that people can just believe is a nonsense. There needs to be a work in the heart before the person can believe. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.  Hearing is more than just listening with your ears - it is in the same line of thinking that Jesus meant when he said - "he who has ears to hear will understand". People need spiritual ears. 
All God demanded of the Jews to form a covenant was a circumcised dick. Which is much further down than one’s spiritual ears.
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,474
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Shila
so therefore for you to say that people can just believe is a nonsense. There needs to be a work in the heart before the person can believe. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.  Hearing is more than just listening with your ears - it is in the same line of thinking that Jesus meant when he said - "he who has ears to hear will understand". People need spiritual ears. 
All God demanded of the Jews to form a covenant was a circumcised dick. Which is much further down than one’s spiritual ears.

Not surprising to see how quickly you lower the standards on this  topic.  Circumcision of men in the OT was required to demonstrate loyalty to God. It wasn't the only way to form a covenant though. Covenants are quite varied in their formation. 
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,177
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Tradesecret
Not surprising to see how quickly you lower the standards on this  topic.  Circumcision of men in the OT was required to demonstrate loyalty to God. It wasn't the only way to form a covenant though. Covenants are quite varied in their formation. 
What God would do for a piece of foreskin? The Jews know how to drive a good bargain.
What will God do for the Israelites if they keep the covenant?
The basic covenant is that God will take these people as His chosen nation and bless them with health, prosperity, and protection from other nations if they will obey Him – and the following commands, ordinances, and religious observances are the details of what He requires them to obey.

Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,474
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Shila
What God would do for a piece of foreskin? The Jews know how to drive a good bargain.
What will God do for the Israelites if they keep the covenant?
The basic covenant is that God will take these people as His chosen nation and bless them with health, prosperity, and protection from other nations if they will obey Him – and the following commands, ordinances, and religious observances are the details of what He requires them to obey.

Yes. But they didn't obey him did they?  They followed idols, and other gods, and then they rejected his Messiah.  And So God executed the part of his covenant to do with the curses. And so God destroyed the Temple. And it has never been rebuilt. The heart and soul of the Jewish religion died in AD 70. And two new Jewish cults sprang up. 

The older brother - the Christians/
The younger brother - the new Jews after the pharisees. 


Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,177
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Tradesecret
What God would do for a piece of foreskin? The Jews know how to drive a good bargain.
What will God do for the Israelites if they keep the covenant?
The basic covenant is that God will take these people as His chosen nation and bless them with health, prosperity, and protection from other nations if they will obey Him – and the following commands, ordinances, and religious observances are the details of what He requires them to obey.

Yes. But they didn't obey him did they?  They followed idols, and other gods, and then they rejected his Messiah.  And So God executed the part of his covenant to do with the curses. And so God destroyed the Temple. And it has never been rebuilt. The heart and soul of the Jewish religion died in AD 70. And two new Jewish cults sprang up. 

The older brother - the Christians/
The younger brother - the new Jews after the pharisees. 
The Jews kept the covenant with God and to this day perform circumcision. in return God promised to take these people as His chosen nation and bless them with health, prosperity, and protection from other nations if they will obey Him – and the following commands, ordinances, and religious observances are the details of what He requires them to obey.
They even crucified Jesus to help him fulfill the prophesies his death would bring.
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,474
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Shila
The Jews kept the covenant with God and to this day perform circumcision. in return God promised to take these people as His chosen nation and bless them with health, prosperity, and protection from other nations if they will obey Him – and the following commands, ordinances, and religious observances are the details of what He requires them to obey.
They even crucified Jesus to help him fulfill the prophesies his death would bring.
Circumcision was just one part of the covenant. It expressly stipulated loyalty to God. To obey all his commandments. They didn't obey all of the commandments. 

Killing Jesus wasn't part of the covenant. Nor did they have a clue that killing Jesus would fulfill prophecies. In fact they would deny that was the case since they deny he was the Messiah. 
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,177
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Tradesecret
The Jews kept the covenant with God and to this day perform circumcision. in return God promised to take these people as His chosen nation and bless them with health, prosperity, and protection from other nations if they will obey Him – and the following commands, ordinances, and religious observances are the details of what He requires them to obey.
They even crucified Jesus to help him fulfill the prophesies his death would bring.
Circumcision was just one part of the covenant. It expressly stipulated loyalty to God. To obey all his commandments. They didn't obey all of the commandments. 
In addition to the covenant of circumcision the Jews obeyed 613 commandments that included dietary restrictions and dos and don'ts
Killing Jesus wasn't part of the covenant. Nor did they have a clue that killing Jesus would fulfill prophecies. In fact they would deny that was the case since they deny he was the Messiah. 
Jesus had to die to fulfill all the types, promises, and prophecies of the Old Testament. From God's promise to provide a sacrifice (Genesis 22:8-14),
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,474
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Shila
And your point is? 


Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,177
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Tradesecret
We don't get the Holy Spirit to enter us. He's God. He's not on a string. John 3:5-9 tells us that the Spirit goes where the Spirit desires. Not where we desire. He's like the wind. It blows where ever it pleases. 
There would be no reason to hold people responsible for believing or failing to believe in Jesus if the unregenerate person cannot actually believe. If God is the one who imparts faith to the unbeliever, then the responsibility to believe lies not with man but with God, and therefore, God can have no basis on which to judge people for failing to believe.

If faith is a gift, then many commands in Scripture that exhort, command, prompt, and warn believers to live obediently become superfluous because the ultimate end of infused faith guarantees the sanctification of believers without their involvement (Lopez, “Is Faith a Gift From God?” 275).

So for biblical, theological, and practical reasons, we conclude that faith is not automatic, nor is faith a gift from God.

Faith comes through hearing the Word of God, through the convicting and drawing work of the Holy Spirit, and through responding to the revelation that one has already received from God.

Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,474
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Shila
We don't get the Holy Spirit to enter us. He's God. He's not on a string. John 3:5-9 tells us that the Spirit goes where the Spirit desires. Not where we desire. He's like the wind. It blows where ever it pleases. 
There would be no reason to hold people responsible for believing or failing to believe in Jesus if the unregenerate person cannot actually believe. If God is the one who imparts faith to the unbeliever, then the responsibility to believe lies not with man but with God, and therefore, God can have no basis on which to judge people for failing to believe.

If faith is a gift, then many commands in Scripture that exhort, command, prompt, and warn believers to live obediently become superfluous because the ultimate end of infused faith guarantees the sanctification of believers without their involvement (Lopez, “Is Faith a Gift From God?” 275).

So for biblical, theological, and practical reasons, we conclude that faith is not automatic, nor is faith a gift from God.

Faith comes through hearing the Word of God, through the convicting and drawing work of the Holy Spirit, and through responding to the revelation that one has already received from God.

Original Sin, from the fall, puts all humans into a situation whereby they can't believe. That's Church Teaching. It's Catholic, its Orthodox, It's protestant. It however is not cultish. It is not humanity's point of view.  Certainly none of the other religions believe man can't believe. It is a uniquely Christian idea. I'm not even sure the Jews teach it, although their prophets surely did. 

The Catholic church and the Orthodox church deal with it differently than the Protestant Church. They see baptism as the means of dealing with original sin.  The non-Reformed protestant church deals with it by way of what they refer to as Prevenient Grace.  Some even deny original sin as a concept. (I don't call consider them true protestant churches since they deny the fall.) The Reformed churches tend towards the doctrines of grace.  We say faith is a gift since Paul calls it so. We deny the idea of prevenient grace since it is so vague. We don't think water baptism saves, although it is a sign of the covenant and brings people into covenant with God. And as such we believe it is a command of God to baptise, infants within the faith and adults who convert. 

The Reformed churches also hold to the view that God is sovereign. Salvation belongs to him. And he will save whom he will save. He will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy. Go and read Romans 9 - it's a helpful read. 

God elects whom he will save. He does it according to his own holy will. He has also created some for his holy wrath. Romans 9:22-23 We say - we believe because we are saved. Not that we are saved because we believe.  We read John 3:16 as a declaration of the gospel. It's a warning. Not an invitation.   

We say that God's rules of ethics and morals and justice belong to him, and not the same as humanity. God is never and can never be held to a human account. 
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,177
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Tradesecret
We say that God's rules of ethics and morals and justice belong to him, and not the same as humanity. God is never and can never be held to a human account.
Romans 9:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
The verses prove the Jews were punished for both following gods commandment and by works unlike the gentiles who only pursued it by faith.

Jesus concludes by saying that many are called/invited to the kingdom, but only those who have been “chosen” and have received Christ will come.
CatholicApologetics
CatholicApologetics's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 120
0
2
8
CatholicApologetics's avatar
CatholicApologetics
0
2
8
-->
@Shila
Jesus’s original mission was more limited. t is recorded in Matthew 15: 24 “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” Remember, God chose the Israelite's as his own and He was their God. If you were drawn to God, you didn't remain a Gentile and worship God, you were circumcised as a male and became Jewish.

Jesus expanded his mission after his resurrection. After he was rejected by the Jews and crucified. So the Jews should be credited for changing Jesus’s mind and not the Romans who crucified him. Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Jesus’ initial focus on “the lost sheep of Israel” (Mt 15:24) did not exclude His larger mission to all peoples; rather, it honored God’s longstanding covenant with the Jewish people and fulfilled prophecy by first bringing salvation to Israel. The universal scope was always implicit (see Isaiah 49:6), and Christ Himself hints at it throughout His ministry (e.g., Jn 10:16). The rejection by many in Israel and Jesus’ subsequent command to “go into all the world” (Mk 16:15) does not imply He changed His mind under human influence. It demonstrates the divine plan unfolding in stages—first announced to Israel, then proclaimed to the nations, fulfilling God’s will that all might be saved.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,177
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@CatholicApologetics
Jesus’s original mission was more limited. t is recorded in Matthew 15: 24 “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” Remember, God chose the Israelite's as his own and He was their God. If you were drawn to God, you didn't remain a Gentile and worship God, you were circumcised as a male and became Jewish.

Jesus expanded his mission after his resurrection. After he was rejected by the Jews and crucified. So the Jews should be credited for changing Jesus’s mind and not the Romans who crucified him. Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Jesus’ initial focus on “the lost sheep of Israel” (Mt 15:24) did not exclude His larger mission to all peoples; rather, it honored God’s longstanding covenant with the Jewish people and fulfilled prophecy by first bringing salvation to Israel.

Bringing salvation to Israel was a failure.The Jews rejected Jesus and demanded he be crucified.

The universal scope was always implicit (see Isaiah 49:6), and Christ Himself hints at it throughout His ministry (e.g., Jn 10:16).

Why did Jesus tell his disciples not to go to the Gentiles and Samaritans?
Why did Jesus not send his disciples to Gentiles and Samaritans? The Gentiles were the people who knew the least about the true God. From a missiological standpoint, they were the least reached. The Samaritans knew something of the Law but were not accepted as genuine worshippers of the God of Israel.

The rejection by many in Israel and Jesus’ subsequent command to “go into all the world” (Mk 16:15) does not imply He changed His mind under human influence. It demonstrates the divine plan unfolding in stages—first announced to Israel, then proclaimed to the nations, fulfilling God’s will that all might be saved.
But Jesus was sent to save the Jews. He failed, he was rejected and crucified. Even to this day the Jews reject Jesus as the promised Messiah. The Romans never accepted Jesus. They had the power to save him,but did not.